Ukraine-Crisis-The-Theories-Involved
…and West is, well, you know….

Raúl Ilargi Meijer of The Automatic Earth writes:

No NATO territory is under threat of being violated, other than inside the narrative. Moreover, while voices in Europe increasingly claim that the threat to Ukraine is a threat to Europe (i.e. the EU), Ukraine is no more an EU member than it is a NATO member. Brussels seems to want it to be, but that’s where the narrative ends. So it’s simply being changed on the fly and has now become: “Ukraine is fighting a war on behalf of all Europe”, according Lithuanian leader Dalia Grybauskaite.
Which is where I think: really, Ukraine has killed over 2000 of its own citizens ‘on behalf of Europe’?

MORE: These Clowns Are Dragging Us Into War (The Automatic Earth)

(Image: Guardian)

(H/T: Sido)

84 thoughts on “East Is East…

  1. aretheymyfeet

    Hey guys, still waiting on the evidence of Russian involvement in the downing of MH17. Washington and the western media have gone all quiet since the Malaysian government accused the US backed Kiev regime of having shot it down. An article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia’s flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month. Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state.
    The US and European media have buried this remarkable report, which refutes the wave of allegations planted by the CIA in international media claiming that Russian president Vladimir Putin was responsible for the destruction of MH17, without presenting any evidence to back up this charge.
    The New Straits Times article, titled “US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft,” lays out evidence that Ukrainian fighter aircraft attacked the jetliner with first a missile, then with bursts of 30-millimeter machine gun fire from both sides of MH17. The Russian army has already presented detailed radar and satellite data showing a Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet tailing MH17 shortly before the jetliner crashed. The Kiev regime denied that its fighters were airborne in the area, however.

      1. aretheymyfeet

        Yep, anything wrong with that? Wasn’t going to go type the whole thing out from scratch was I? Do you dispute the rest of the statements content? Where is the evidence of Russian involvement? I mean Kerry and Co were pretty vocal at the time and the EU imposed sanctions because of what Irish papers kept referring to as “Russian involvement in the downing of MH17”. Yet, we have not been provided with one shred of evidence, not one. It’s brushed under the carpet, it was used to ramp up the public animosity to this ‘aggressive Russia’. Kind of like the bullsh*t in our papers where most articles are taken directly from The Telegraph in the UK or Reuters and all start with the annexation of Crimea. No-one seems to like context and there’s no mention of what was happening in Kiev the previous 6 months leading up to the annexation. Keep buying the BS your being sold, the story has no holes at all…..

        1. Medium Sized C

          “Keep buying the BS your being sold, the story has no holes at all…..”

          When you post things like that, nobody will take you seriously.

        2. Pretendgineer

          What’s wrong with that is that you are regurgitating others opinions, parroting them as if they are your own by not giving credit. You really have no basis to put yourself on par with the establishment media that buy articles from Reuters or other, more internationally capable organisations.

          You’re doing exactly what you accuse everyone else of doing – you’re buying into a narrative proposed by somebody else with no recognition of the shortcomings of that particular brand of BS. I’m perfectly content with an “I don’t know” in relation to MH17, because of course I don’t know who’s responsible. Nor do you, you’re just keen to subvert the official line on it. You’re just as bad as all those “sheeple” you deride.

          1. aretheymyfeet

            No, I am just highlighting the clear misrepresentation of facts that is occurring in our media in relation to Ukraine. Read Dan O’Brien’s piece on the back page of the Indo from yesterday. He states as fact the Russian involvement in Ukraine. This is simply false. From the beginning of this crisis it has been clear that our media outlets are not giving the whole story, this is simply undeniable. How often has the Irish Times or Indo written about the overtly neo Nazi elements in the Ukraine government for example? I am keen to point out that we are being sold a lie and that lie may very well lead Europe to a bloody war. There is an increasingly shrill call for NATO to stand up to Russia, what do people think this will involve?

          2. aretheymyfeet

            That should have said “He states as fact the Russian involvement in the downing of MH17”. Although the other could also be argued.

    1. Bejayziz

      Seen that too…Cockpit was riddled with 30mm holes (most likely from an SU-27). As soon as it became clear that the Kiev regime was responsible the media dummed down their coverage of it

      1. Bobby

        No, it stopped getting media coverage because there was nothing to interest the public. That’s how the media works. It’s not there to spread truth, it’s there to make money by giving people what they want. Just like the linked website above is making money by claiming Kiev are responsible with no more “proof” than there is that Russia was responsible.

        1. aretheymyfeet

          If it was BUK at all? We simply do not know, that is my whole point. There is no evidence being produced yet Europe has engaged in further sanctions against Russia. Does no-one see anything wrong with this at all?

    2. Atlas

      Funny that an Su-25 is alleged to have shot down MH17, given that its cockpit is not pressurised and therefore the service ceiling is a solid 3,000 metres below the cruising altitude of your average passenger plane (the altitude which MH17 was at). What’s also funny is the curiosity that this figure was edited on the Su-25’s Wikipedia page and revised upwards to 10,000 metres, allegedly from a Russian government source.

      Regardless, going off the actual, manufacturer-supplied service limits, I don’t think any machine gun in the world is capable of hitting a target three-f*cking-kilometres away, never mind the fact that the target in question would have been travelling at roughly 800km/h.

      1. aretheymyfeet

        Even funnier is the silence from Washington now. No evidence provided at all (to the point one Reuters reporter asked the White House spokesperson if all of the’ evidence’ was effectively posts from social network sites, to which she replied yes, but we have other evidence we cannot share, funny that). Or the BBC report which was mysteriously pulled from their site which had locals claiming to have seen a jet shadowing the plane before it went down.

        1. Atlas

          There’s a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that the so-called ‘pro-Russian’ fighters were behind it – namely the fact that they were known to possess at least one SA-11 BUK anti-air missile system (which they had bragged about on Twitter a few weeks before) and that this missile system was photographed in the area on the day of the downing of MH17 and filmed making a break for Russia later in the day.

          There’s also the fact that the Ukrainians had nothing in the area, whether surface-to-air or air-to-air, capable of hitting a passenger jet flying at 10,000 metres, because why would they? Neither the so-called, self-proclaimed, self-appointed ‘Donetsk/Luhansk People’s Republic’ possessed an air force and at the time and Russian fighter jets weren’t yet active in the Donbas region, so there was absolutely no need for Ukrainian AA to be active in the area.

          The fact that the Russians alleged it was shot down by a Ukrainian Sukhoi Su-25 fighter jet is also interesting, considering that MH17 was at the standard cruising altitude of 10,000 metres whereas the Su-25 has a service ceiling of 7,000 metres. Even if this Su-25 were minded to shoot down a passenger jet at cruising altitude, a mere three kilometres above it, it couldn’t. It becomes especially ridiculous when you consider the allegation that it was ‘finished off’ with the Su-25’s machine guns, once again, from three kilometres away.

          There’s the various statements by ballistic missile experts, upon examining pictures of pieces of the crashed plane, that the damage was consistent with shrapnel damage from a BUK missile.

          There’s the post on Russian social media site VKontakte by rebel leader Igor Strelkov of a video of the plume from the crash site with the sinister by-line ‘We warned them not to fly in our sky’. He would later realise that it was MH17 that is mercenary comrades had shot down and delete the post.

          I could go on all day, but the whole argument that the Ukrainians did it for, eh, some reason (?) just doesn’t stack up, where there’s a great deal more and much stronger evidence to suggest that the Russians/Russian-backed militants shot it down in error and have been ass-covering/muddying the water ever since.

          1. Bejayziz

            The Ukrainian airforce has a number of SU-27’s which have a service ceiling of 19,000 m (62,000 ft)

          2. Atlas

            None of which were (or alleged by the Russians to be) in the area of MH17 at the time of its shooting down.

            That theory makes no sense. Move on.

          3. aretheymyfeet

            There is no evidence a BUK was used. If you have it, please provide it. There is no evidence the separatists shot it down. There is no evidence the Russians played any part in the downing of the plane. This has not stopped western media, including Irish media, stating Russian involvement as if it is a fact. yet, you seem to have no problem with this clear misrepresentation of the facts. Even where it may lead the world to war.

          4. Bejayziz

            Plus according to the internet, the ukrainian military modernised a few of their su-25’s and they have a few SU-25T’s which have a higher service ceiling….would like to hear what “Am I still on this island” know about this as i’m no expert?

          5. jungleman

            I haven’t seen him on here in a while. Maybe he was sent in to get the men who went in to get the men who went in to get the men.

          6. Atlas

            @Bejaziz

            The Su-25T is an anti-tank variant, and therefore still a ground attack vehicle. So no, it’s still not capable of shooting down a passenger jet.

            @aretheymyfeet

            There was the now-deleted tweet from the official Twitter account of the ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ boasting about their new BUK missile launcher, complete with picture. There was the picture of the same BUK missile launcher in the car park of an apartment complex, taken the day of the downing of MH17. There was the video of it leaving the city later on that day, and another video of it moving through the countryside with one missile missing.

            This was widely reported in the international media (save for RT and their ilk), so you can Google it yourself.

          7. Bejayziz

            While the SU 25T is a specialized anti tank aircraft it has the same arsenal as the standard Su-25, it just has some add on’s if you will….so it is capable of taking down the jet, its all speculation anyway and I dont think there will ever be a definitive answer…after seeing the 30mm bullet holes in the cockpit i would be more inclined in thinking an SU25 variant was responsible though

          8. aretheymyfeet

            Please provide me with the links to these. You might also note that not one item that you mentioned there is actual direct proof. Circumstantial at best. I can provide similar circumstantial evidence of Kiev involvement but I personally think its too important an issue to be relying on circumstantial evidence, don’t you? If all you have is circumstantial evidence do you think perhaps this should at least form part of the narrative, not bare statements stating Russia was involved, stated as a fact, which it quite clearly is not.

    1. Atlas

      The Neville Chamberlain school of dealing with belligerent, authoritarian and avaricious leaders.

      Peace in our time!

      1. jungleman

        So what are you saying? That we should go to war with Russia? I might point out that there was no nuclear deterrence in 1938. The US pushed it too far with Ukraine and Russia has pushed back, as was inevitable. I don’t think Russia will start invading other stated next. This issue with Ukraine will simply put the US back in their place vis a vis Russia.

        1. Atlas

          No, I don’t think we should go to war for a number of reasons: a) we are not a NATO member state, b) Ukraine is not a NATO member state, c) Russia has nuclear weapons and therefore d) the principle of MAD still operates. Is Putin crazy enough to use nukes? I don’t know. I sure as feck don’t want to find out.

          What’s clear as that Putin’s whole approach to Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk (or ‘New Russia’, as they’ve started calling half of Ukraine recently) isn’t new. It’s pretty much the exact same tactic as Russia did with Transnistria, Abkhazia and South Ossetia – send the troops in under dubious justification and then ‘freeze’ the conflict, thereby creating an internationally-unrecognised yet de facto vassal state of Russia. It can’t end well if we appease Putin like Chamberlain did with Hitler, and that’s before you even consider Putin’s ‘Eurasian Union’ ambitions (of which, Ukraine was going to be key).

          I would prefer to sanction the absolute bejaysus out of the Russian Federation, isolate them as much as we can politically, economically and diplomatically, as well as wean ourselves off their gas and send a message out to the powers of the world that you can’t bully and invade smaller states when they don’t do what you want. Ukraine is an independent state that has a right to self-determination, including and especially where it doesn’t want to do what its more powerful neighbour wants it to do.

          Russia’s power is exaggerated, they’re not the power they used to be. They have an economy about the size of Italy’s that’s wholly dependant on gas exports, and as it stands we’re their only customer. They have a population about 1/3 of that of the EU. They have an army of ill-trained, ill-equipped conscripts using 20 years-out of date weapons, tanks and tactics. They have an equally out-of-date air force that a small EU state could put to bed easily. They’re a significant regional power, but still just a regional power. The EU alone is more than capable of putting manners on them, without putting boots on the ground.

          1. will-billy

            we need their gas though and they need our cash. personally i think sanctions are not the way. western powers have been encroaching nato on russian borders in latter years and meddling in ukraine also. seems a yalta style conference will be better

        2. jungleman

          I wasn’t referring to Ireland when I said we should go to war, but rather the western countries of US, UK, and other NATO states. Regardless, at least you acknowledge the nuclear deterrence. But to say “They have an equally out-of-date air force that a small EU state could put to bed easily” shows that you’re not being realistic. Russia is a military giant (a cursory look at the the details that are freely available will tell you this) that would crush any combination of EU states. It’s crazy to even be thinking in such a way. The UK has to spend a fortune on every missile they fire, while Russia produces most of their weapons themselves. Putin knows that he can annex Ukraine and that nobody will challenge Russia militarily, and he will do so if he is backed into a corner.

          Again I see this comparison with Hitler. I stated below that Russia has clearly reacted where its hand was forced in the interests of its regional security. It is unwilling to have NATO on its doorstep. Russia was quite happy to maintain the status quo, unlike Hitler who was seeking to expand and create an empire. It is disingenuous to make this comparison.

          You refer to the Eurasian Union as if it is some sort of evil ambition that the west should not appease. Why? Is it your opinion that only the EU should be allowed to succeed? It is no coincidence that the Ukrainian government was overthrown after signing up to join the Eurasian Union.

          You clearly are very much anti-Russia and I doubt you’ll change your mind. I don’t consider myself a supporter of any world powers, but I would certainly consider that Russia’s foreign policy is far less meddlesome than that of the US and its “partners”, in particular the UK. Russia has proven to be a stabilising force in the ME where US policy has destroyed any semblance of a functioning nation state in Libya, Iraq and Syria. If it were not for Russia’s intervention last year I have no doubt that Syria would now be under the complete control of ISIS and other extremist Sunni groups. But you seem to be of the opinion that the world would be better off if the US was the only power and that there was nobody there to balance things out.

  2. Atlas

    I didn’t expect BS to be among Putin’s useful idiots, but given how they love to be edgy and contrarian for the sake of being edgy and contrarian, I suppose it’s consistent.

    Seriously though, behaving as if one of our neighbours getting attacked militarily and having vast swathes of its territory annexed by a significant regional power is not at all a problem is a ridiculous line to take. That’s before you consider the fact that they shot down a passenger plane full of EU citizens and that they control much of the EU’s energy supply.

    In short, yes it is very much the EU/NATO/the West’s problem and it’s nonsensical to suggest it isn’t.

      1. Atlas

        Did the Russians not annex Crimea? Are they not operating in eastern Ukraine?

        What exactly of the above do we not know is true?

          1. aretheymyfeet

            There are serious question marks over Georgia and the whole South Ossetia conflict with Russia. The EU investigation found wrongs on both sides but did state that the Georgians had in fact attacked Tskhinvali first. I’m not absolving Russia of any blame but just highlighting that the Georgian conflict is not as cut and dry as you may think.

        1. jungleman

          “that’s before you consider the fact that they shot down a passenger plane full of EU citizens”..

          You conveniently ignored that dishonest statement.

          1. Atlas

            There is strong evidence that suggests ‘pro-Russian’ militants did it. There is sweet feckall evidence to suggest that the Ukrainians were behind it. Therefore, it’s reasonable to infer from that that the ‘pro-Russians’ were responsible.

            This should not be difficult to understand.

          2. aretheymyfeet

            Show us this ‘strong evidence’. There is no evidence. You would make a bloody awful lawyer. The US had advanced radar technology in the region at the time, yet no radar evidence disclosed. The Kiev Ukrainians refused to provide access to the ATR recordings of communications with the plane before it was shot down. The investigators have said that the only party to provide any information to date are the Russians who provided civilian radar recordings allegedly showing a fighter jet shadowing the plane before it went down. It very well could be the case that the separatists are responsible but not one shred of evidence in this regard has been provided. Please provide it if you have it.

          3. Atlas

            I have provided swathes of evidence, which you’ve chosen to ignore. Read my other comments. It seems that there’s no point in engaging with you as you’ll just ignore or dismiss out of hand anything I say.

          4. aretheymyfeet

            You have not provided one shred of actual evidence. You do know hearsay and conjecture do not form evidence? Thank God we don’t convict people in the manner you seem to advocate for deciding issues of fact. In this case, we’re not talking about sending someone to prison, we’re talking about a clear move towards overt hostilities with a nuclear armed nation on the edge of Europe. I think we deserve actual evidence.

          5. jungleman

            Atlas, you were very clearly stating that Russia shot down the plane, and that is totally dishonest of you as you know there is no proof of this, that it is highly unlikely, and that, while they may support the rebels, this does not mean that they are one and the same. I would be of the opinion that the most likely party that shot it down was the pro-Russia separatists. However, this has not been confirmed and there are other potential culprits.

    1. Odis

      “I didn’t expect BS to be among Putin’s useful idiots” – why not? Its certainly never shown a penchant for being one of America’s useful idiots. Then again I haven’t come across you before on Broadsheet.

      Its to do with “poular uprisings” and their legitamacy. We’ve had popular uprisings in Libya, Egypt, Syria and the Ukraine. Popular uprisings all seem to have an agenda, all seem to be supported by the US and EU and all seem to end up in death and disruption
      And yes, I appreciate you can’t be bothered to read the article, because you have read this sort of tiresome propaganda before.

      1. Atlas

        I’ve read enough nonsense from obscure blogs peddling this line before to know it when I see it. I don’t think it’s fair to say I’m pro-US, I’m very much not, but they’re definitely the lesser of two evils in this particular scenario.

        It’s worth noting that Yanukovich was not chased out by a mob à la Ceausescu, he chose to skip the country. In his absence, the Ukrainian parliament voted him out (including members of his own Party of Regions), changed the constitution and appointed interim leaders. They then elected a new president in May and have currently dissolved the interim parliament pending an election in October.

        It’s also worth noting that in no region is there a majority in favour of union with Russia or joining the Russia-led ‘Customs Union’. Yes, that includes the Russian-speaking regions. A significant portion of the leadership of the rebels, as well as the rank-and-file militiamen, are Russian citizens and ‘retired’ senior FSV members. They’re armed with Russian tanks, guns, missile systems and artillery. This is not a bona fide rebel movement, this is a slow-motion Russian invasion.

        It is absolutely not fair to compare this with the likes of Syria, Libya etc. To do so is to muddy the waters and unduly delegitimise a country under attack from a vastly more powerful neighbour.

        1. aretheymyfeet

          You’re right, in Syria and Libya the US and its allies are providing much stronger military support to the jihaists – here’s an article from Haaretz back in Feb 2014 (not known for their anti Israeli or Anti US stance) setting out how the US, Israel, Jordan, The Saudi’s etc.. are all assisting the ‘rebels’ in Syria (many of them the same guys they also helped in Libya), and are now the same guys chopping off heads in Iraq. https://archive.today/qeRSZ
          Here’s another article by Seymnour M Hersh, Pulitzer Prize Winner writing in the New Yorker (another anti US rag) back in 2007 explaining that the US is now aligning with Sunni extremists in their strategical war against Iran in the region. Again, none of this makes the Irish papers.http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection

          At some point you may realise the US is up to no good.

          1. aretheymyfeet

            In fairness, he may not be ‘owned’ simply misinformed. To be honest, I was of a similar mindset myself up to a few years ago. Well misinformed is how I would put it. Well read across various world media outlets which can give a sense of understanding issues. The problem comes when you realise that the information is by and large agenda pushing garbage. I think we are perfectly correct to be asking for evidence of Russian involvement in the downing of MH17, after all this led to further sanctions against Russia which is affecting the European economy. Not to mention the questionable justice involved in punishment without evidence.

          2. Odis

            @ aretheymyfeet – how right you are. Another possibility, that occured to me, is that it could be ABM polishing up his trolling skills, for when the Lord next needs them.

          3. Atlas

            Coming from the person blindly parroting the RT line. The bile and the sheer volume of it coming out of you, aretheymyfeet et al is more akin to shilling than anything I could dream of posting.

          4. aretheymyfeet

            Why don’t you attempt to refute anything I am saying rather than the usual RT shill or Putinbot ad hominem nonsense of those with no clear arguments. I provided links to the New Yorker and Haaretz, neither known for their anti US stance. I am willing to bet I know far more about global politics and strategy than you do. In fact, I am willing to put money on it. Care to take the hundred Euro challenge? I make a statement, assert its truth, if you deny it, we bet on it, €100 each time.

  3. Just sayin'

    The levels that some people will go to appease Russia is remarkable. The Russians just see this as weakness and press on. There are definitely elements of the Ukrainian military and government that are unpleasant, but at the end of the day, Russia has invaded Ukraine, already annexed the Crimea and is pressing to seize more land like it already has in Moldova and Georgia.

  4. aretheymyfeet

    All the useful idiots on here supporting the agenda of Mr Brzezinksi and Co in Washington. Well done sheeple. No mention of the coup in Kiev, the openly neo-nazi elements within the Kiev regime, the fact that the US chose Yats an ex Goldman Sachs banker to be the PM, the way he was whisked around Europe meeting heads of State after the coup as if he was a legitimately elected leader, the serious question marks over who the snipers shooting people in Maidan were, the fact Joe Bidens son is now on the board of Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, the fact the Russians already were in Crimea before the annexation as they have a long term lease on the port, their only warm sea, black sea port, of huge strategic significance, the fact that dozens of innocent people were burned alive in Odesssa and it barely registered in the western media, etc…. anyone who is buying the clear attempt to demonise Russia and advance NATO and the EU east (in direct contravention of all assurances provided to the Soviets at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall and reuniting of Germany). The US is marching Europe to war and you dumb asses are cheering them on. Good job sheep. It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.

    1. Bobby

      The irony of you calling people “sheeple” when you’ve done nothing but regurgitate what you’ve read on the internet is quite impressive.

      How come you’re not mentioning the fascist state that is Russia? The disappearances of political activists. The mysterious deaths. The arrests. The continual eradication of freedoms? Why, if you’re such a champion of truth and justice, is it okay for Russia to do what it wants, but you rush into action to point the finger at Ukraine?

      Is it, per chance, more complicated than “The West is evil and enslaving us all and the royal family are giant lizards” conspiracies you’re repeating?

      1. Odis

        It’s not just reading the Internet though is it Bobby. I accecpt that, that unfortunate American journalist had his head chopped off by Islamists and I read about that on the internet.
        The fact is the internet allows us to observe patterns the stupidities and propaganda of our leaders, over a period of time, and build up a version of events, based on the observable facts or for that matter lies.

        (Protip: If you want to slag Putin off, on Broadsheet, come at it from the gay angle)

        1. Smashmouth

          Surprised to see you commenting on this thread Odious

          allow me to paraphrase – “wake me up when Russia invade a country that isn’t Ukraine”

          1. Italia'90

            I see your former KGB agent and raise you a George H. W. Bush.
            https://www.google.ie/#q=george+h+w+bush+cia+director

            Please somebody tell us who the bad guys are?
            We can’t decide for ourselves apparently?
            Putin’s not a nice guy. Modern leaders seem to exhibit mildly psychotic symptoms, or so I recall reading a couple of reports about this phenomenon in the recent past.
            I cannot tell who shot down MH 17.
            What I do know for sure is that democratically elected presidents, Egypt and Ukraine were overthrown by CIA operators with the aid of Blackstone and other paid mercenaries.
            The west covets what Putin controls.
            It appears to me that the hawks in Washington, with their political actors in Brussels have grown wary of the long game.
            An EU army was part of someone’s plans for something? And it wasn’t tiddlywinks.
            I only wish AISOTI was here to put us all straight.
            I always thought he was Declan Power tbh, the security analyst with the IT.
            Has he been redeployed back to Mayo does anyone know?

          2. jungleman

            AISOTI?? That fella knows a bit about the military, I’ll grant him that. But he has shown clearly over many posts that he has no understanding of politics or the bigger picture generally.

            Don’t get me started on the other lad.

          3. Bejayziz

            Because someone disagree’s with you they must have no “no understanding of politics or the bigger picture generally”

        2. aretheymyfeet

          “I accept that, that unfortunate American journalist had his head chopped off by Islamists and I read about that on the internet.” – check this one out. http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/foley-murder-video-may-have-been-staged-30534070.html

          Why would they fake it? Squeamish? These guys are supposed to be chopping kids heads off if the media are to be believed, and they get cold feet with an American journalist? Curious one might think, but most people wouldn’t give it a second glance.

      2. aretheymyfeet

        eh, does the internet not effectively contain huge amounts of information including almost every book every written? Speaking of books, have you ever read Brzezinki’s 1997 book The Grand Chessboard. He being Obama’s foreign policy adviser (and indeed mentor for years), the National Security Adviser under the Carter Administration and a prominent member of the Council on Foreign Relations, a key agenda setting organisation. You’ll alos find some great videos of him on YouTube with the Mujihadeen in Afghan back in the day. Mr Brzezinksi states that following the fall of the Soviet Union, the US is a global empire which must push on to create a global hegemony under US rule (yeah, I know, bizarre). Key to this control is the Eurasian Supercontinent. There are pivot nations on this continent which are key due to their geographical location and/or resources. Ukraine is one of these pivots. With it within its spehere of influence, Russia once again becomes a continental power, without it, Russia is massively weakened, losing the co called Bread basket of the Soviet Union and their only warm sea and black sea port at Sevastopol.

    2. Moan

      +111111111111

      Nice to see some truth break cover.

      Long term US/Zionist plot to encircle the bear and in doing so loot the natural resources of Eastern Europe.
      Real homeland of the Khazars too.

      The cosy job for Joe Biden’s son was a bit of a giveaway in fairness.

  5. eh

    I thought this was a fairly sane take on the whole thing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/opinion/10810159/ukraine-crisis-cold-war.html

    I understand that it’s not as simple as Russia = Bad guys, but under Putin, Russia has become far more aggressive. I would imagine that many of the former Eastern Bloc countries who are now members of the EU would be pretty disgusted by what they see in Ukraine. Also, Putin’s position on elements such as free speech and homosexuality don’t exactly instill me with confidence in the guy as a reasonable fella, even when compared to the EU despite all its faults (and there are oh so many).

    1. jungleman

      Is it really Putin that has caused it to be more aggressive, or is it just Russia acting the way it inevitably will when pushed (like any other power would)? I think that this aggression was an inevitable reaction to US attempts to bring Ukraine into its sphere of influence, as the article you posted contends. Putin has been painted as a modern day Hitler by western neocons such as McCain, as well as some Eastern European leaders with an anti-Russia agenda. Russia’s actions in Ukraine are really reactions, but this fact is omitted in favour of portraying Russia as land-hungry opportunists.

      1. aretheymyfeet

        Exactly, Russia was already in Crimea having a long term lease on the port at Sevastopol, which is of key strategic importance. Following what was a coup in Kiev were Russia supposed to give up this vital strategic asset? Would the US be just dandy if say the Chinese orchestrated a coup in Mexico or Canada. We all know the answer to that one. Russia is acting defensively against western aggression. This is not new although you would never know it from the history we are told of the Cold War. Watch Oliver Stone’s very interesting The Untold History of the United States to see just how false the version of history we are told actually is when it comes to Russia ( and indeed the US).

    2. aretheymyfeet

      I agree, as far as I was concerned Putin was an autocratic homophobic nut job. He may still be. But I am more aware that there has been a concerted effort in our media the last year or two to create this image in what can only be seen as an attempt to demonise Russia in the minds of the populations of the west. That way we don’t see it as so odd when people are calling for military action to stop this new red menace. McCarthy would have been proud.

  6. Fubbs

    This is weak and juvenile. So Russia the increasingly fascist state sends tanks through another foreign state and the states of the ex-soviet union suddenly start expressing concern while calling for displays of collective defence.

    Only those with the shallowest knowledge of history would find this strange and attribute it to a conspiracy.

    1. aretheymyfeet

      Only someone with no understanding of history or geopolitics would not at least try to understand what is really happening or do you believe the US has never orchestrated a coup to remove a leader that was not in line with their interests? The retort of ‘conspiracy theorist’ is a facile and immature one. Used by those who have no counter argument and know it. Perhaps you’d like some information on US ‘interventions’ over the past 50 years (it goes back a lot further, read up on General Smedly Butler, at the time of his retirement the most decorated US marine in history).

      1. Fubbs

        Are you responding to the right comment? You’re wrestling strawmans.

        I’m simply addressing the facile notion put forth by the author that states:
        1. A threat to Ukraine is not a threat to Europe
        2. Statements from the Lithuanian president such as “Ukraine is fighting a war on behalf of all Europe” must only be construed as doublespeak for endorsement of war.

        Excitable rubbish.

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