Locations of multi-faith primary schools (top) and those of Catholic ethos (above).
Jay.
Kers.
Gráinne writes:
I think your readers might be interested in theese screen grabs of Dept of Education’s website, showing the results of searches for multi-denominational primary schools and Catholic ethos primary schools.
The visual is quite striking, and nicely illustrates the point that most families in Ireland have no choice but to attend schools controlled by the Catholic Church. In a secular state religious run schools should be the exception, not the norm….
Find A School – Department of Education
Previously: Ask A Broadsheet Reader
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This needs to change.
Catholic Church shouldn’t have such a stronghold on Primary schools.
Give this man a prize
Even worse when it comes to Secondary schools
I saw a lot of talk about how the Church has lost it’s grasp on Ireland’s youth following from the equality referendum when the truth is the church still has a strangle hold on the country. The government won’t do anything however as they don’t want to deal with education. They are already cutting the budget, they are not going to do anything to remove any relief on costs.
All of this. It’s outsourcing
How does it have a stranglehold on the country?
I’m not saying it doesn’t still have influence, but stranglehold sounds like it’s secretly running the show which it clearly isn’t.
They have priests or nuns on almost every schoolboard in the country . on the boards of hospitals , care homes etc
They own the land for many of the same.
They’re basically an occupation force, and they’re going to have to go.
Ownership is nine tenths of the law m8
Survey after survey shows that the majority of parents involved in these schools want them to remain under the patronage of the church. Several Archbishops have come out and stated that they cant get parents to agree to new patrons for their schools.
Imagine giving parents what they want – disgraceful.
@ aisling t would you mind posting the links / reference for the surveys please? Id be interested to read them. Thanks.
Sorry Alison t.
Survey after survey shows that the majority of parents involved in these schools don’t want to have to prepare their children for bouncy castle day on their own time…
Possession is 9/10ths of the law, even ;)
This map is proof that athiest parents are really lazy. Why have so many atheist parents failed to get involved in opening secular schools? Faith groups are clearly more interested in how kids are educated.
well there is Educate Together, the answer is active disruption by the government
Pathetic.
@ Luki,
There can be no Secular/non-denominational schools in Ireland.
http://atheist.ie/2014/08/how-irish-law-effectively-prohibits-non-denominational-secular-schools-based-on-human-rights/
1) Well, all the Catholic parents I know did not have to open a school themselves in order to send their children to school – why should non-Catholic?
2) We’re not talking atheists, we’re talking all non-Catholic parents (theists, polytheists, agnostic, whatever label you want to give them, other religion) + Catholic parents who don’t want their children being taught religion as they learn maths.
3) These schools are publicly funded, they are therefore a public service. We are paying the government so that they provide an education that is adapted to all children of Ireland, not just the majority group.
I know a mom who was trying to get a multi faith school off the ground in her area. Happened to meet with a RC priest involved with a school that had dwindling attendance. They discussed switching patronage for the school, since there was a growing number of parents seeking non RC schools in the area. Priest told the parents he’d rather see the school close than give it over to anyone else.
Pick any two :
✔ Ireland is a Catholic Country – if you don’t like it, go somewhere else
✔ I was raised a Catholic and I’m sound
✔ There are plenty of non-denominational schools to go around
✔ Shur aren’t 95% of us Catholic on the Census – we don’t need these hippy schools
✔ I want my kids to grow up in a Catholic country, I pay my taxes
✔ Why is everyone getting their kids baptised if they don’t want them to go to a Catholic school?
—
This is Rónán Múllén’s lasting legacy via the CEIST trust, they cannot be unseated from the Catholic school boards.
what non-denominational schools?
ooooh.red ticks!
1) Actually, although the Irish Constitution is written around God, it does not explicitly say it is a Catholic country. Many other European countries are also culturally Catholic, yet they do not have the Church run their public services. However, the Constitution does guarantee Freedom of Conscience and Ireland did ratify the UN ICESCR and need to be held accountable for it.
2) Many people were not raised a Catholic, and are sound too.
3) There are actually no publicly-funded non-denominational schools in Ireland. There are some multi-denominational. Waiting lists reach the hundreds for each, with only 30 places available in some. Hardly enough.
4) Actually, last Census shows 84% self-describe as Catholic, not 95%. Last year, a third of all marriages in Ireland were non-religious. This is no longer 1920. Also, many Catholics send their children to Educate Together.
5) I want my kids to grow up in a country where they will not be forced into Catholicism, or discriminated against because they are not Catholic – I pay taxes.
6) “Everyone” (although I’m not so sure about that!) is getting their kids baptised because of social pressure and because they want their children to go to school and feel they have no choice.
Anything else?
…good luck to anyone looking for a non-denominational school….the solution seems to have been a handful of ‘multi-denominational’ schools…the result is school coridors stalked by all flavours of religious crackpots chanting their mantra of parity of esteem.
Multi-D schools sound much better than purely catholic ones. Are you saying its worse? Its not ideal but a step in the right direction. maybe a step in the only sensible direction. people are religious after all . it doesn’t stop you or me our own kids being secular. but still teaches tolerance, surely that’s a good thing? So what if little Jonny comes home a Muslim one day and two weeks later wants to be a hundu then a Jew . then takes up smoking (sorry vaping) to be “cool” ? kids are stupid. let them make there own discoveries. (of how mental the whole blind faith thing is). Purely secular or catholic might be as bad as each other from a dogmatic standpoint/ethos.
Another day, another sky god. another move in the right direction? That’s an improvement? What’s wrong with schools being about education?
That is absolute rubbish. The multi denominational schools shown are Educate Together schools and there is no religious instruction of any type in these schools.
You simply made that up
Not so. They teach about religion.
To not teach about religion would be utterly ridiculous. A student who left school not knowing the basic tenets of the major religions would be very ignorant. That is not the same as faith formation!
To not teach philosophy is ridiculous.
A student who leaves school without knowing the basic tenets of logical thought is very ignorant.
Faith formation is the opposite of education.
Otherwise I agree.
Religious observance is accommodated but instruction is extra curricular.
…Educate Together schools actively teach spiritual development and that is not non-denominational…Emer Nolan, COO of Educate Together admits that: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2014/09/02/how-do-educate-together-schools-teach-religion-and-spirituality-a-conversation-on-twitter/
In your first post you stated that “the result is school corridors stalked by all flavours of religious crackpots”. That is not true and you know it is not true. You are a liar. It is not the first time you have made this claim and have been caught out on it. I don’t know why you repeatedly lie about Educate Together schools but I very much doubt you are a parent of any children attending one.
Further to the piece you posted have a look at the reaction from people on Atheist Ireland’s Facebook page when Nugent posted about the issue.
https://m.facebook.com/AtheistIreland/posts/10152692382979017
He didn’t gain many fans.
Educate Together have been providing choice for parents for 35 years with nearly 80 schools.
Atheist Ireland have done nothing.
Educate Together has just dropped the “multi-denominational” from its ethos and replaced it with “equality-based”. I think the general idea is that the term is confusing and excludes those of no denominations.
PR spin
It seems Nugent’s complaint boils down to this:
“Educate Together responded […] by claiming that ET schools are non-denominational, which is simply not true. They combined this claim with a call for more funding for ET schools to satisfy the UN requirement for non-denominational schools.
The effect of this is to undermine the pressure on the State from the UN to provide actual non-denominational schools, by pretending that ET schools are non-denominational even though everybody knows that they are not.”
That’s a totally valid point, but he came across as terribly hectoring in his attempts to get them to admit it.
No religion should be allowed to run any state schools in Ireland. If people want their children to receive religious education then it should be done after school in a private setting.
Ruari Quinn faced massive resistance when trying to remove the church from schools. In several schools the parents themselves voted against the change. In fact, I still wonder what was the real reason for him leaving the ministerial position – was it the catholic fundamentalists putting pressure via FG?
I doubt we will get another minister with a similar attitude for a long while.
Vote Independent, and you just might…
Oh, but I am voting independent for sure. Still, the church’s control over this country is like leeches that one just can’t get rid of. This is not about religion or education for them, it is about power, control and survival of their like minded people.
Vote Independent and you might end up with Mattie McGrath as Education Minister.
Michael McGrath would be just as bad, he’s just got better pr skills.
There was a multi-denominational school put in near me, replacing a Catholic school….. and there was uproar apparently. I was told this by a DCC councillor.
I live in DSC *makes gang hand gesture*
Dah’s Dub-a-linn Souf Centrawl ….y’all can kiss ma donkey
Ruairi Quinn did try to take them on but you know bad Labour
….Ruairi Quinn has his kids through school; more pensions than you could skake a stick at; a load of directorships and assorted sinecures beckoning but I fervently believe he lies abed, as always, fretting about your kids education.
Cynical loser – grow up and address the point
+1
“Someone is more successful than me (according to bisted), therefore they don’t care about me!”
Says a lot about what would happen if he came into money.
…you are probably right…as betrayed labour supporter I certainly have become cynical…I backed a loser when I believed all those labour press releases in the run up to the last election.
That’s fine but #notallLabour
…you are definetly right…nature hates a vacuum…good to see a new generation of idealists who definitely, never ever, will turn into opportunistic scumbags like their predecessors…
I keep hearing about these supposed uproars . I imagine they’re all from a very small fragment of students parents. . or just some local busy body
Nay-sayers and professional malcontents, I would imagine.
People who have noting better to do with their time.
What’s wrong with living in a secular society, where a lot of the state’s functions are controlled by a religious body? And didn’t it work brilliantly well before people decided we should be a secular society?
So go build a non-denominational school where you would like it. And run it. Or what do you suggest happen to change this?
State-funded schools do not get to have a religious ethos.
If you want to teach your kids religion send them to one of the Diddlers on your own time. Stop making the rest of us pay for your child’s miseducation.
“Miseducation” is an inappropriate term (not even sure it’s a word). My beliefs may differ to yours it doesn’t mean they are wrong. That’s not my point however, so the majority of schools in the country are Catholic denomination. My question is how does this occur, my thought is because they always have been. So to change that you must either build non denominational schools and run them be it publicly or privately. Or do you seize control of these Catholic denomination schools and if so what are the legal implications of that. What specifically makes a school continue with a Catholic ethos in current day Ireland?
I have no kids and don’t have the time or skills to do that. You make it sound like you can set up a little educational institution with qualified teachers, garda vetting, a building, and support staff, curriculums, a board and all the other trappings over a weekend. Firstly it’s not that simple, secondly it’s not our job, it’s the state’s.
Do I really make it sound like that? Because that would be an absolutely daft suggestion. That anything of the like could be achieved over a weekend. That’s just silly. So the state should provide more non-denomination schools? Should they build one for every catholic one? Where would they get the land and the money to do so? Or should they change an existing “catholic” schools to free of religion. Again I go back to my previous question – what makes a school catholic?
Rather pointless, like showing us how many churches are catholic. You don’t like it? Build your own, see how that works out.
You do realise that ALL national schools are funded by the State. This notion that the church is supplying this education for free is a nonsense.
Church still owes us a lot. Maybe we should just seize their assets.
Following Michael Woods’ solo signing of the blank cheque on behalf of you Joe Taxpayer, over a decade ago, indemnifying the church against litigation in the future in return for cash/properties/land, they legally changed ownership of most of into trusts to evade their obligation.They still have to hold up most of their end of the deal. We continue to pay.
As of 2013 their contribution was capped at€128 million, and they’re nowhere near that.
Liability estimate at that time was €1.2 BILLION.
https://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/07/18/indemnity-and-the-religious/
Odious debt?
Seeing as we’re paying anyway, we should just do like Canada did: pay the compensation and sue the ballax off them.
Agreed. And send the sheriff in, no messing.
Capped at 10% so.
I remember watching a documentary about the richest man in Britain. Who was then the Duke of Westminster, the Grosvener family. Basically, the tactic, they used, was to argue and stall about dues and taxes, through the courts, until inflation, had reduced the amount payable considerably.
How are LGBT children faring i these Catholic Primary Schools? Considering the behavior we have seen during the referendum …
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-group-of-teachers-calls-for-no-in-marriage-referendum-1.2213001
I should imagine they are persecuted and tortured by these vile, so called teachers, who have failed to deal with their own gender identity issues – wouldn’t you Peter?
I presume “Grainne” has a problem with this and will continue to fume and stamp her foot like Jane Ruffino.
Shut up “Peter’
Yeah, what’s the point of fuming and stamping your feet, when their are complete ***** like you around.
It just doesn’t make any sense.
Yup the organisation with the worst record by far in the land with regards to child abuse and the cover-up of child abuse is the one in charge of maintaining their ethos in the vast overwhelming majority of schools in the land.
Shameful.
This is quite unnerving in 2015. separation of church and state, I may not have typed anything else so much in my Internet life
There are plenty of parents trying to make sure that there is a choice, specially when your kids are lucky enough to go to an ET national school, no secular choices around for second level, and a severe shortage of 2nd level places anyway – http://sket2ndlevel.org/
aLOLmen
One insight from Yes canvassers was that working class areas were positive but negative came from elsewhere. Professional people in Ireland were always more likely to be socially conservative which is the opposite to most other countries. The church and class system here still are interwoven here so don’t expect tweedledee (FG) and tweedledum (FF) to instigate social change on issues like state funding of sectarian schools.
Making Labour the scapegoat for what has happened is probably the most stupid thing I have seen in my lifetime.
I feel better after than rant. :-)
*that
This doesn’t really tally though with the Marriage Referendum results where middle and upper middle class areas of Dublin overwhelmingly voted Yes. My own Monkstown polling station was quite the Yes landslide. The Roman Church has most sway among the rural lower middle class and middle-middle class. The older GAA brigade for want of a better term.
The Yes canvassers reported that but the actual results clearly indicated otherwise – only two boxes in the entire country returned 100% yes votes (Dalkey and Ranelagh). Seems working class areas might have been more inclined to say yes at the door and then vote no.
It looks like a lot of poppies to me.
Anybody up for starting the poppy debate early this year? Or really really late for last year?
Ah here here. Wear your Yes badge where you want but don’t bring it into the workplace.
As father Fr Tom Doherty, a curate at St Patrick’s Church in Ballina, said recently “the barbarians are at the gate”.
First gay marriage, now they want our schools… what next, take down the papal cross??
No burn the blessed Virgin on it
I don’t get why people care. It’s not like Catholic Schools would undermine the beliefs of the parents because, as we all know, mothers and father’s matter to the Church.
It is all about choice. Currently there is very little choice especially as people now are more educated and ask more questions, which does not fit into being a Catholic.
Move Religious education to outside of the school time so that the important subjects are taught, which we pay for.
I was told by a school principle not to long ago that even Muslims have Christian names, referring to their second names. This came from my questioning the application form which had, First Name, Christian Name, on the form.
We were also asked by a few schools to bring the baptismal Certs and our Marriage Cert when we were looking for a school for our child. Apparently this never happens……
Technically, the schools in Ireland are owned and managed by another State, the Vatican. Teachers are hired by boards of management who are made of of local business people, and a priest must be on the board, and the Dept of Education pay the salaries. Too many different interests involved which need to be addressed.