Let The Emigrants Speak

at

emigrat_2

Anne Marie at Uplift, writes:

At 2pm today, Irish emigrants will be sending a message home that 1/6 Irish voters will have no say in tomorrow’s #GE16.

Nearly half a million people left Ireland since 2008, including 80,000 young people. Most forced to leave because of government policies and are now being told to return home by the very politicians who pushed them away.

The Thunderclap campaign will broadcast a message from Irish emigrants at the moment the broadcast moratorium starts. The message to the next government is to put emigrant voting rights on the agenda. Still time to sign uphere

Meanwhile…

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145 thoughts on “Let The Emigrants Speak

  1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

    You don’t get to vote if you have been out of the country for 8 years.

        1. ahjayzis

          That’s what I read anyway. After 18 months if you’re still on the register voting = electoral fraud.

          Fortunately I learned this several months after committing electoral fraud for the #marref ;o)

          *flees into the night*

          1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            They could always check the register against national insurance or something logical. But hey, if they can’t be bothered too bad!

            I have a friend who is Irish and has been away from home for about 8 years. They are still on the register at their parents house.

          2. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            Yeah, I know, its wrong but I couldn’t remember what it’s called in Ireland – but the number you get when paying tax or what have you. It’s one way of doing it if you wanted to I guess

          3. ahjayzis

            Pay-related social insurance is *a* national insurance I suppose.

            PPS No. Don! Are you not Irish did you say?

          4. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            I wish, cause I would be fupping hot as well. Sadly, I am neither and a TERRIBLE* cook.

            *lazy af

          5. Anne

            Oh right.. gotcha. PPS number.

            They can’t tell where you are though, I don’t think. Unless you have some dealings with them.

            I’m fine with people committing electoral fraud myself.. Shur we’re voting for a bunch of fraudsters anyway.

          6. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

            I think Irish people enjoy these little plans of sneaking around the rules, you’d be mad if someone took them away :)

  2. newsjustin

    If you’re not living here, you shouldn’t have a vote.

    The more pressing need is to allow residents and workers, who are not Irish citizens, to vote I general elections.

    1. Rob_G

      +1

      I live in another EU country and, much as I am interested in the goings on in Ireland, the parties that are elected and the policies implemented here will have a much bigger impact on my life.

      I think that an EU citizen living in another country should be eligible to vote in their new home after two years (I think it is seven here currently).

      1. classter

        That makes sense, Rob_G, until you realise that it provides a massive incentive to politicians to ignore those who are younger, dissatisfied, well-travelled or in certain industries which only have a small number of global centres.

        Allowing overseas citizens to vote would be a means of adding a valuable external perspective into the oft-parochial & sometime stultifying Irish political world.

        Most other European countries allow for overseas citizens to vote. Why is it so different for Irish citizens?

        I would be ok with some time limit on it but 18 months & no means of voting from abroad is not right.

      2. classter

        I suppose the point I am trying to make is that it is not just about the rights of the voter.

        It is also about the potential impacts on Irish electoral politics.

    2. realPolithicks

      For once I actually agree with you. If you want to vote you need to live in the country, not withstanding that you may have been “forced” to leave. Engage in the political system where you live now. I am “Feeling the Bern” and will be voting for Bernie Sanders next Tuesday.

        1. realPolithicks

          Americans living outside the US are required to pay income tax on all earnings and are entitled to the same privileges as citizens living in the US.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Pardon? I know a couple of Americans. I’ll ask them about this. So the US government can access the bank account of a small café in Dublin before the money reaches her?

          2. Harry Molloy

            Check out FATCA, banks all over the world have huge fatca programmed to facilitate this. If they want to deal in dollars at least

          3. Anne

            Yeah, you would still file a US tax return if living abroad but you wouldn’t pay taxes in both countries, as they have a treaty with us.
            You get relief from the tax paid in Ireland.

            https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/ireland.pdf

            “ARTICLE 24
            Relief from Double Taxation
            1. In accordance with the provisions and subject to the limitations of the law of the United States (as
            it may be amended from time to time without changing the general principle hereof), the United States
            shall allow to a resident or citizen of the United States as a credit against the United States tax on
            income:
            a) the Irish tax paid by or on behalf of such citizen or resident;

          4. Anne

            I wouldn’t worry too much about it.. I was ‘a resident alien living abroad’ (i.e had a green card but didn’t use it) for a few years and never filed any U.S. tax returns.

            I didn’t sign up for that, they can ask me hoop for any taxes I might owe them.
            I think income tax is higher here anyways.. don’t think they’d give you a refund though. :)

          5. realPolithicks

            I’ve lived in the US for a long time now, I don’t think I’ll be living in Ireland anytime soon…

      1. Neilo

        Good man/woman! I’m no fan of aul’ socialist heads but he is a functioning human being unlike that homunculus Clinton.

    1. Rob_G

      Indeed – I think the CSO’s figures indicated that about 1 in 6 emigrants were unemployed, something like that.

      1. Anne

        Something like that? Ah yeah, that’ll do.. Why go to the hassle of doing a few googles when you can pull something off the top of your head.
        Nothing about the pay of these jobs? Relevance to the person’s experience/degree or anything?

        There are other aspects that could force people to emigrate, than having a job I would think.
        Things like, lack of affordable childcare, housing, lack of opportunity .. that sort of thing.

        And when we say forced, it’s generally taken to be understood that they weren’t dragged to the airport by the scruff of the neck.

          1. Anne

            Any sources for your scutter, or is it all hearsay?

            “There are other aspects that could force people to emigrate, than having a job I would think.
            Things like, lack of affordable childcare, housing, lack of opportunity .”

            Eh, read a newspaper.. or a news website. Turn on the news. Talk to people.
            Are you new to the country or something?

          2. classter

            Rob_G, e ven if you accepted that only 16% were ‘forced to leave’. that is still 160,000 Irish-born citizens at the very least.

            Anyway, it is not merely about the rights of voters, Why exclude the input of educated, experienced Irihs citizens abroad. Think of it as diaspora engagement.

  3. Joe835

    I really don’t understand the logic of permitting votes to be cast in an election by people who are not resident in the country. I know other countries do so but honestly, I don’t get why they do it either.

    And as someone has already said here, we already have thousands of immigrants here, living and contributing to Ireland, who cannot vote.

    I’d sooner see those people enfranchised than those who seek to influence the running of a country they don’t live in.

    1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

      You should be allowed for vote for s set period of time after you leave – say 3 years. And if you have been in the country for a set period of time – say 2 years (from my experiences, I don’t think you have a good understanding of a country for at least 18 months).

      After that, sod off.

    2. Harry Molloy

      i agree

      They don’t have to deal with the consequences, the “sure lets see what happens” factor

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        They are dealing with the consequences of the previous government by living abroad. They can vote for the next one.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Maybe they’re having difficulty paying their mortgage and feeding their children because Joan’s Jobbridge means all the vacancies they can find only pay €50 a week?

    1. classter

      ‘whingers’

      This is exactly the point.

      The biggest problem we have is that those who are disenfranchised/disillusioned are more likely to go abroad than to see a way for themselves to bring their grievances through the system.

      This suits the parish pump gombeens that their parents elect. They can pay lip service to the ‘tragedy’ of emigration without ever really engaging with the issues

    1. classter

      Do you honestly think most living Irish expats would vote for SF.

      If anything, I suspect that the Irish-born abroad are less well-disposed to SF than those at home.

  4. Ronan

    My girlfriend is from Poland and she can vote in Polish elections online while in Ireland. This should be the same for Irish abroad. Many Irish citizens were forced to leave during the recession and anyone calling them “moaners” is completely out of touch with what happened to a lot of people in Ireland. Parts of society are still in a recession but voters will go out and back Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Labour and Renua, who are all austerity parties, in the election and stab the people who are still struggling in the back. And those who emigrated. Vote left for those who can’t and those who need you to.

    1. RDJ

      Just because other countries do these kinds of things doesn’t mean that they’re a model for us to follow. Lot’s of places don’t allow gay marriage, but that didn’t stop us doing something differently.

      Let’s look at this with regards to what’s best for ourselves and our own people rather than keeping up with the Jones’.

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        What’s best for ourselves is having as many Irish voices represented as possible. That includes people forced out of here by the right wing clowns in FG.

        1. classter

          Exactly, Moyes.

          In recent times, we have become keen to include the potentially beneficial input of the Irish abroad into most fields, except for politics.

      2. classter

        RDJ, you are correct that we shouldn’t necessarily copy other countries.

        If most countries allow something, however, it is worth reflecting on why that might be.

    2. newsjustin

      a) It would make far more sense if your girlfriend could vote in Ireland’s general election as she’s living here.

      b) “Vote left so politicians can manufacture jobs for you to occupy.”

      c) G’way out of that with your thinly veiled “I have a hot Polish girlfriend” message.

      1. Catherine McEntee

        * Sorry, my comments are going under the wrong comments, they were meant for Ronan’s contribution

  5. Funster Fionnanánn

    Live here, vote here.

    Maybe a vote for the president is fine.

    But important votes that impact tax should be left to people having to live the after affects.

  6. ahjayzis

    I don’t think emigrants should have a vote forever after leaving, it’d make no sense for a man living 40 years out of Ireland voting in a GE.

    But for at least the general election subsequent to your departure. Otherwise there is zero incentive for a government to not rely on the emigration ‘safety’ valve, because the people forced to go abroad will have no voice to judge their government for giving rise to that circumstance.
    Our demographics look like we’ve had a war – 1 one in 6 Irish people isn’t in Ireland anymore! Policies that gave rise to this (like cutting u25’s jobseekers by 50% as an inducement to GTFO) can’t be addressed when the victims aren’t allowed to vote.

    Also agree that EU citizens should get voting rights in the country they’re resident in from the off if they’re losing their franchise in their home country. Otherwise you have hundreds of thousands of disenfranchised people all over Europe.

    1. Rob_G

      “Our demographics look like we’ve had a war – 1 one in 6 Irish people isn’t in Ireland anymore!”

      … and about the same proportion of Irish residents were born outside the state; Ireland is part of the EU, so we can move and work in any member state we like. We should count ourselves lucky.

      1. ahjayzis

        And those people who’ve moved to Ireland do not come from countries where 17% of the population has disappeared. You’ve completely missed the point.

        No other country in the OECD is losing so much of it’s population – and many of them don’t disenfranchise their citizens when they go.

        “CSO figures show that over the past seven years, the Irish population has seen a 34 per cent drop in the number of 20- to 24-year-olds, and a 27.5 per cent drop in 25- to 29-year-olds.”
        http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/generation-emigration/one-in-six-irish-born-people-now-live-abroad-1.2354097

        Is that not concerning? An entire generation has been decimated and you don’t think the fact that this keeps happening is because the people who are forced to leave don’t get any voice at all?

        1. Rob_G

          … 17% of the population has disappeared

          – you make it sound like they vanished from the face of the earth, rather than moved to another country to work in a white-collar job.

          Also from the CSO statistics:

          “A breakdown of emigration by education attainment, shows that slightly more than half of those aged 15 and over emigrating (52.8%) had a third level degree or above.”

          – most people who moved abroad did so because there were better opportunities abroad. Many will move back, eventually; many will not. Many people from the countryside move to cities to go to college or get a job; this is essentially an extension of this phenomenon.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “most people who moved abroad did so because there were better opportunities abroad.”

            And why aren’t there good enough opportunities here?

          2. ahjayzis

            Grand so.

            Nothing to see here.

            It’s normal vast chunks of entire generations leave, pleasant even, a societal good.

          3. Rob_G

            @Moyes & ahjaysis

            – I’m not saying that all was rosy in the garden since 2008: the economy wasn’t good, the emigration levels reflect that. I’m just not sure that the wailing and gnashing of teeth is warranted. People aged 20-29 are less likely to have kids, and thus more likely to move abroad; this is why they make up the largest group of emigrants. If there were no jobs in Ireland, which would be better, in your opinion: young people staying at home, looking for jobs that aren’t there, or instead going abroad, learning new skills, acquiring language skills, etc.

            In 2014, net migration was (negative) 20,000. In 2015, it was (negative) 10,000
            => things are getting better, if the economy keeps growing there will lots of inward migration and the proportion of 20-29 year olds will increase accordingly.

          4. MoyestWithExcitement

            “I’m just not sure that the wailing and gnashing of teeth is warranted.”

            Wailing and gnashing of the teeth. Interesting choice of words. ‘Yeah things were bad but you shouldn’t whine.’ Nothing patronising about that.

            “If there were no jobs in Ireland, which would be better, in your opinion: young people staying at home, looking for jobs that aren’t there, or instead going abroad, learning new skills, acquiring language skills, etc.”

            So masses of young people emigrating is a *good* thing according to you?

          5. Rob_G

            So masses of young people emigrating is a *good* thing according to you?

            – infinitely better than staying at home when there are no jobs, yes.

          6. ahjayzis

            Does it have no effect on Ireland though? If so many people who’ve been failed by the system up and leave and lose their voice what will ever change? This exact same thing happens every decade or two in a never ending cycle.

          7. MoyestWithExcitement

            You’re in your 40s or 50s I take it? That’s such a depressing attitude. ‘Well lads, things are crap around here for you, but you shouldn’t whine about it. Just move a 5 to 12 hour flight away from your family and friends. Leave me be to pick up my pension.’

          8. Rob_G

            Nope – emigrant, in my 20s.

            Had a job in Ireland (much like 84% of the people who emigrated), but wanted to move abroad to see if I could get a better one. Most emigrants stories would be closer to mine that the gloom-and-doom narrative that is sometimes proffered.

          9. MoyestWithExcitement

            You’re an emigrant in your 20s?!? Then your stance here is utterly bizarre. If you don’t want to vote, fine. Don’t take it away from others. I don’t know how you can say most emigrant stories resemble yours. Emigration has grown by 50% since the recession. That would suggest most people are leaving out circumstances rather than choice.

          10. Rob_G

            Well, I’m not taking away the vote from anyone…

            It’s a mix of circumstance and choice, as I have already outlined. I’ve posted loads of links from the CSO to support this thesis; if you have similar stats to support your argument, I would be interested to read them.

          11. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Well, I’m not taking away the vote from anyone…”

            Maybe I’ve misread things. So you’re *not* advocating the vote be taken away from emigrants?

            “It’s a mix of circumstance and choice”

            If your choice is stacking shelves in Centra or working in the field you spent 4 years studying for, it’s not much of a choice really, is it?

            “I’ve posted loads of links from the CSO to support this thesis;”

            You’ve posted data that shows most people aren’t leaving because they feel they have to? Where?

          12. classter

            ‘– most people who moved abroad did so because there were better opportunities abroad. Many will move back, eventually; many will not. ‘

            All fine but surely you can see that writing off any cotnribution these expensively educated Irish people could make to the political process is self-defeating?

  7. RDJ

    So many +1 on the comments above.

    “forced to leave” – I’ll believe this narrative when I see buses going around the country, rounding up people, driving them to the airport, pushing them on a plane, and shipping them out of the country.
    It’s a choice to leave, simple as, and you make that choice in full knowledge that by leaving you give up certain benefits of living in this country – getting your clothes washed at weekends by your ma, pints on a Friday with your mates, pulling in Coppers, and voting in Irish elections.
    You don’t insist on being allowed those other benefits when you’re abroad, why only just be allowed vote?

    “If you’re not living here, you shouldn’t have a vote.” – my sentiments exactly. Other countries, like the USA, give people the right to vote when they’re abroad because they tax their earnings when their abroad as well.
    However, that doesn’t mean I’d support the canard we see sometimes, that you vote where you pay tax. As newsjustin says, if you live here, you should be entitled to vote here.

    Let’s consider this then, to make ourselves even more enlightened as suggested by joe865, make that an absolute- if you live here, legally, having gone through (what should be vastly improved, simplified and fairer and timely) ways of being allowed live here, then you should get to vote in any elections happening here.

    1. Anne

      “forced to leave” – I’ll believe this narrative when I see buses going around the country, rounding up people, driving them to the airport, pushing them on a plane, and shipping them out of the country.

      Even that didn’t happen around the times of the famine.

          1. Anne

            RDJ, my point is, when your choices are limited, you are in effect forced.
            You said “forced to leave” – I’ll believe this narrative when I see buses going around the country, rounding up people

            People generally weren’t rounded up at the times of the famine.
            It was either starve and die or go. So your literal example of what forced means isn’t relevant. I wasn’t referring to the modes of transportation available at the time.

      1. RDJ

        Or maybe, it actually did:

        Some landlords resorted to forced emigration of their tenants in an effort to ‘solve’ the problem in Ireland. In October 1847, the ship ‘Lord Ashburton’ carried 477 Irish emigrants to North America. 177 of these people came from one estate owned by an absentee landlord. They were so poor that they were all but naked for the journey and 87 had to be clothed by charity groups in America before they could leave the ship. On this particular voyage, 107 people died of dysentery and fever. The ‘Quebec Gazette’ described the ‘Lord Ashburton’ and all that it represented as “a disgrace to the Home Authorities.” The absentee landlord who had forced 177 of his tenants onto the ship was Lord Palmerston, the British Foreign Secretary at this time, and one of the most famous of Britain’s politicians in the Nineteenth Century.

        http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/ireland-1845-to-1922/the-great-famine-of-1845/

  8. Jake38

    “Nearly half a million people left Ireland since 2008,……”

    ok. How many were NON Irish citizens returning to whence they came? A lot, I think.

    “….including 80,000 young people. Most forced to leave because of government policies.” Really? Which policies? Can you specify? You say most. Have you a precise percentage who said this?

    I thought not.

    1. Rob_G

      “Nearly half a million people left Ireland since 2008,……”

      “… many of whom subsequently moved back” – they left out that part.

    2. ahjayzis

      The government cut social welfare for under 25’s in HALF at a time of massive youth unemployment.

      That’s an active policy to get rid of young people by any standard.

        1. ahjayzis

          Completely, utterly and wilfully irrelevant to my point that one rule applied to jobless 50 year olds and another to jobless 20 year olds.

          1. Neilo

            You’re bending a tough cut in spending into some shadowy intent to exile a generation. Alternatively: It’s free dole, unfunded by the recipient. A lazier kind of person with zero ambition would happily cash out €188 a week into a distant future.

          2. ahjayzis

            Still not hearing an argument why the young were hit and the old not – it being non-contributary for both and when youth unemployment was far higher.

            It’s all just coincidence that it lead to a 34% drop in the number of 20- to 24-year-old living in Ireland and subsequent welfare savings and live register reduction, right?

            ‘Tough’ cut, my hoop. Induced emigration is and always has been an Irish government policy and giving emigrants absolutely zero representation even for a few years after they leave means this will continue.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            “A lazier kind of person with zero ambition would happily cash out €188 a week into a distant future.”

            That, right there, is a myth. We had full employment at one point. That means everyone that could work, did work. People need work for their mental health more than money. The bum who’s happy to sit on the dole for the rest of his life doesn’t really exist.

          4. Neilo

            A long-term recipient at 50 who will go on to a non-contributory pension in a decade and a half is probably viewed as someone who is immune to incentives to take employment or training. A younger person may be more easily persuaded to toe the line with regard to activation measures or training through reduction in the dole. It’ s fairly harsh – I’ll give you that – but Ireland Inc. may feel it will get more value from a more motivated younger person whose allowance has been cut. Either way, while I respect your enduring passion for emigrant votes, I don’t support such a measure.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            “but Ireland Inc. may feel it will get more value from a more motivated younger person whose allowance has been cut.”

            That’s not how people work.

          6. ahjayzis

            Maximum Personal Rate aged 26 or over €188.00
            Maximum rate for a claimant who is 18-24 €100.00

            But Labour protected ‘Core Benefits’
            But just for core citizens.

            It took no account of whether a 24 year old was living with mammy and daddy or didn’t and was a mammy or daddy themselves.

          7. Bertie Blenkinsop

            “The bum who’s happy to sit on the dole for the rest of his life doesn’t really exist.”

            They’re the exception but they’re definitely out there Moyest.

          8. ahjayzis

            “but Ireland Inc. may feel it will get more value from a more motivated younger person whose allowance has been cut.”

            Ahhh enforced poverty, the great social leap forward. If you whip them they’ll move faster.

          9. MoyestWithExcitement

            They’re one in a million Bertie and probably not actually that happy. Probably resigned to living on the dole forever rather than being happy about it. Point is anyway, cutting social welfare to motivate people is fupping stupid. It literally has the opposite effect. Money is how we measure value. You get value by doing something other people want, be it write a song or clean someone’s jacks. If you have no money, you have no value in the eyes of other people, or least that’s how your brain subconsciously reads the situation. The long term unemployed tend to be pretty depressed.

  9. karlj

    You should not have a vote unless you are ordinarily resident.

    In fact, I don’t understand how people were able to “come home” to vote last year in the referendum if they did not live here. Some said they’d been out of Ireland for years, how were they still registered to vote?

    1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

      They did an old sneak-a-roo didn’t they? Which I think is fine to do. If they don’t even bother to check the register than screw em.

      I just checked and I do think the rules are unduly harsh on Irish people overseas. Where I’m from you can vote for 3 years after leaving which seems like a good compromise, especially if you are only working abroad for a while and plan on coming back.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        +1

        I’d even go 5 years, then the person loses their vote.

        But this uplift bullcrap looks like it’s calling for it to be for ever….? If they are not calling it as a vote for life, then their campaign is stupid and does not make that clear, but as it stands, they can fupp off!

        1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

          Yeah, there needs to be a limit. I think most people would agree to that. They aren’t making it easy for themselves which is a shame because its a good idea to change it especially with a world that is so much more mobile these days.

  10. Ursula

    What about foreign workers who have lived here for 10+ years but dont hold Irish citizenship

    They have no vote in the general election yet pay the same taxes as the rest of us

  11. Stumpy

    No thanks. I love my country, but as a non-resident I don’t have as much invested on the outcome of the GE16 circus.

    1. MoyestWithExcitement

      So don’t use your vote then. I know quite a few Irish people abroad who are plenty invested.

      1. Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní

        You know, there’s an app in that.

        People who want to vote at home but can’t could swap votes with people in other countries who are in the same boat.

        That’s my idea, none of you fuppers steal it.

        1. ahjayzis

          I tried to swap my East End safe-seat Labour vote with a Green voter in a marginal and the system was oversubscribed >_<

  12. Digs

    I’m cycling to the polling station tomorrow. Wanted to drive but petrol Is just too expensive. Lots of people in the country will be put off by that. Need to put door to door or delivery voting on the agenda. People should be entitled to vote witout moving any limbs.

  13. Ursula

    What about foreign workers who have lived here for years yet dont hold Irish citizenship for whatever reason

    They have no vote in the general election yet pay the same taxes as the rest of us

    1. classter

      Maybe the process should be relaxed for foreign residents but there is more to democracy than taxation ffs.

  14. rotide

    The “forced to leave’ narrative is incredibly disengenious and at best spin, at worst just plain old bullcrap

  15. Kieran NYC

    How about an emigrants’ constituency of three/four seats?

    Personally I’d agree with the 5 year cut-off for GE and 7 for Presidential/Referenda.

  16. Fergus the magic postman

    If you’ve been driven to emigration die to government policies , you should have a say in the following GE in my opinion.
    More importantly, if you don’t currently live in Ireland you shouldn’t be lecturing me on Broadsheet about the economic recovery you think I should be feeling.

        1. Rob_G

          If you’ve been driven to emigration die to government policies , you should have a say in the following GE in my opinion.

          – good emigrants that agree with Ferg should have a say.

          …if you don’t currently live in Ireland you shouldn’t be lecturing me on Broadsheet about the economic recovery you think I should be feeling.

          – bad emigrants should not have a say

          1. Rob_G

            Even when I disagree with people, I never say: “Fergus shouldn’t be on Broadsheet lecturing me on x,y,z”

            If you disagree with my arguments, refute them with arguments of your own; don’t shut it down with: “Well, you don’t even live here”

          2. Fergus the magic postman

            Rob, if somebody who is not in Ireland is ranting on about the existence of an economic recovery, here Ireland, that they haven’t witnessed themselves, that most people here including myself have not felt either, then I think my point is sound.

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