“Give Me A Simple Answer If You Can”

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90418156patkenny

From top: Eoin Ó Broin and Pat Kenny

Another week.

Another foam-flecked Sinn Féin smackdown on the wireless as Newstalk‘s Pat Kenny and Eoin Ó Broin, Sinn Fein spokesman on housing, discuss scrapping water charges this morning.

Tay and a scone.

Pat Kenny: “Today in the Dáil, Sinn Féin will propose to scrap water charges for good. We know that it’ll that probably change absolutely nothing. The motion will likely be defeated because even though they say they’re in favour of scrapping water charges, Fianna Fáil will vote against the motion. What’s the point? A waste of time, or showing up Fianna Fáil’s confused stance on the issue? With me in studio is SF TD for Dublin Mid-west Eoin O’Broin, Eoin, good morning to you.”

Eoin Ó Broin: “Morning, Pat.”

Kenny: “Can I ask you about the chamber? When you got back did it look the same?”

Ó Broin: “There is a new e-voting system that for the first time officially allows TDs to abstain if that’s what they wish to do.”

(talk over each other)

Kenny: “And if someone is as láthair [toilet], then obviously there’s no vote as well.”

Ó Broin: “It’ll save an enormous amount of time, throughout this entire Dáil term we’ve had to do manual wal kthrough votes that take twenty minutes per vote, so if you’ve five or six votes on a Thursday, it’ll save time…”

Kenny: “It’s tedious.

Ó Broin: “Well, not tedious. It just wastes significant amounts of time, so that’ll speed that whole process up.”

Kenny: “And you’ve total confidence in the system, you won’t have deputies standing up and saying, I want to see the real thing?”

Ó Broin: “As you vote, you see your vote coming up on the screen, so if there’s any difference between how you vote and what comes up, you can easily have that rectified.”

Kenny: “You think all the deputies will go along with the new system and accept it. Now, it may come into play tomorrow, when you have a vote on your motion. Why are you doing this [introducing legislation to scrap water charges]? The Commission is going to talk about it, the majority are against the charges, what is there to vote over?”

Ó Broin: :”To flip that question over, if there are a majority of TDs that are against water charges, why waste everyone’s time and money on a so-called independent commission?”

Kenny: “The motion won’t do anything, it’ll just indicate intent on behalf of the Dáil, don’t you need to enact legislation to get rid of legislation that put it there in the first place?”

Ó Broin: “First of all, opposition parties propose motions all the time. The purpose of proposing motions is to challenge the government of the day. 300,000 people voted for Sinn Féin, one of the reasons they did so was to address this issue, so am I wasting time? Absolutely not, I’m fulfilling my democratic mandate.”

Kenny: “We’ve had water marches, we’ve had all sorts. It’s there, you don’t have to raise it.”

Ó Broin: “One of the reasons why Fianna Fáil shifted its position again from suspension to outright abolition, is due to pressure placed on them by Right2Water, the demos, Sinn Féin. So these things are very, very important, and not a waste of time. But the question is, if Fianna Fáil are for abolition, why would they not support the motion? The purpose of this motion is to put pressure on the government, pass the motion and get it into legislation. But if they want the charge scrapped, they should do what we’re doing and put the pressure on the government to bring forward this legislation.”

Kenny: “I know you’ve sought legal advice (and other ministers) have sought advice as well, the legal advice is conflicting. Those against water charges seem to find experts who agree with them and those who are for seem to find experts who agree with them, that you cannot remove it because the protocol has been established by FF originally. So that’s what the commission is going to look at, what needs repair, how much it’s going to cost, blah, blah, blah. They’re going to come out with a finding. Why would you pre-empt that finding, because if you bring in legislation against water charges, and the EU insists on them staying, the legislation is invalid?|

Ó Broin: “Those who say the Water Framework Directive requires water charges haven’t read it or taken time to understand it. And Lynn Boylan [Sinn Féin MEP] has sought legal advice on this issue. It’s about a series of environmental framework objectives, so long as you are meeting those objectives, water charges are irrelevant.”

Kenny: “Why am I getting all this wrong, then? Europe has been telling us we had water charges, we had it in place and we had reached the point of no return.”

Ó Broin: “That’s not what the EC was saying for two years. For two years, MEP were sending questions along the lines of “does Ireland have access to the water derogation”? And what they were saying in writing, up to a few months ago, was they cannot answer that question until they see the River Basin Management Plan, submitted next year, which shows how government will meet the environmental objectives. What then happened was, despite this stated position and the correct one by reading the directive, was they came back and said you cannot reverse water charges. As long as you show through your plan and your actions how you intend to meet these objectives, we believe we can. The thing about legal advice, even though we have complete faith in the advice commissioned by Sinn Féin, is it can be a matter of opinion.

Kenny: “Exactly why they’re called opinions.”

Ó Broin: “Ultimately the decision of a government, and the EC objected, they’d have to take it to court, and the interesting thing there is the Commission took the German government to court recently because they were of the view that the German government weren’t charging enough for certain types of water usage. The Commission lost because the German government proved they were meeting those objectives.”

(talk over each other)

Kenny: “This is all politically very convenient. But, if you can leave your tap on all night under Sinn Féin, that, patently, is daft.”

Ó Broin: “In any conversation, we have to have it based on facts.”

Kenny: “No, no, no, answer that question, if I decide to leave that tap on, water my garden all summer, I can do so with impunity under your protocol.”

Ó Broin: “If you talk to Irish Water, household water usage is below EU average. We’re not wasting water.”

Kenny: “Stop giving me that nonsense! Answer the question. Why is it socially responsible to turn on the tap, and never turn it off, and not pay? Simple question, give me a simple answer, if you can.”

Ó Broin: “If you don’t mind my saying, it’s a ridiculous question.”

Kenny: “Why?”

Ó Broin: “People don’t do that.”

Kenny: “In the Winter, people are afraid of frost, because they haven’t lagged their attic, they turn on the taps, to keep the pipes from freezing, it’s irresponsible. Under your regime, it would cost nothing.”

Ó Broin: “You say it’s irresponsible for people to keep their pipes from freezing?”

Kenny: “Ah, come on! Don’t be facile, don’t be facile! The point is under your regime, you could turn on the tap, all day, all night and pay absolutely nothing.”

Ó Broin: “Under our regime, the problems of wastage would be addressed and fixed, and households educated on waste water, but if you look at the statistics, you’ll see we are under the average. 50% of wastage is lost in a decrepit infrastructure that is the responsibility of the government. If our priority is to reduce waste, where are we going to start?”

Kenny: “Are you going to answer the question, are you going to answer the question about the irresponsible householder?”

Ó Broin: “What’s irresponsible is the government that won’t invest in tackling the 50% of water wastage in the distribution system.”

Kenny: “Where’s the money going to come from?”

Ó Broin: “General taxation.”

Kenny: Let me put this point to you, your support, your votes, come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, out of work, can’t find work, and therefore pay no tax. So what you’re doing is shifting the burden onto the so-called ‘squeezed middle’, because people who pay no tax have no fear of general taxation.

Ó Broin: “A bizarre way of looking at it, Pat. In my constituency, one in four voters voted for me. That means that people on no incomes, low incomes and middle incomes voted for SF.”

Kenny: “Do you not say your support comes from those areas?”

Ó Broin: “It comes from working people and unemployed people. All of these people pay tax. They pay income tax, they pay VAT. Now, what is the best and most and reassured way of paying for infrastructure over the next ten years? Through a cross-party commitment in our opinion, on investing from general taxation. You wouldn’t have to raise levels of taxation, Pat.”

Kenny: “Sorry, sorry… You’re paying for something that is gonna cost 400 million a year. And you don’t have to raise taxes, where are you going to find this money? Hah?”

Ó Broin: “We don’t have to raise taxes because according to the Government’s own estimations on fiscal growth, the money will be there. It is the best way to do it, Pat, to upgrade the system, and to ensure that we have a water and sanitation system fit for purpose.”

Kenny: “You do describe yourselves as a socialist party, there’s no other socialist party in Europe that doesn’t agree with water charges.”

Ó Broin: “That’s not the case.”

Kenny: “Go on, which ones?”

Ó Broin: “There are several. In Scotland, there aren’t domestic water charges…”

Kenny: “There are.”

Ó Broin: “There aren’t domestic water charges…”

Kenny: “Rates.”

Ó Broin: “…or metered household charges. That’s a separate issue, that’s a form of local taxation.”

More to folly.

Listen here

Previously: “What Time’s The Bias Due?’

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75 thoughts on ““Give Me A Simple Answer If You Can”

  1. jackson

    Kennys right on the money at the end

    Let me put this point to you, your support, your votes, come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, out of work, can’t find work, and therefore pay no tax. So what you’re doing is shifting the burden onto the so-called ‘squeezed middle’, because people who pay no tax have no fear of general taxation.

    1. Richard Pound

      The auld divide & conquer tactic.

      Rubbish, I know loads & loads of middle class who completely oppose billed water charges & it’s corrupt company & its attempt of privatising it.

      Also Kenny is a complete slime ball…

      1. classter

        Discussing how there are choices to be made & debating who will feel the greater burden of such choices is not ‘divide and rule’, even if you are correct that many middle class people opposed water charges.

    2. Nicelives

      Heard it live and thought it was a really good interview, both sides performing really well. And you’re right he didn’t answer the question but sure isn’t that what most politicians are taught to do.

      1. Paddy

        Apart from Kenny showing his Blueshirt/O’Brien bias. His wheezing, not allowing full answers, his smart-ass sniggering. No wonder the people of Wexford ignored him at the Wexford Business Awards.

    3. martco

      …what like €400k p.a? I’d say and the rest.
      These days there’s only one program on Newstalk worth it’s salt, Off The Ball
      Kenny has no balance anymore, in fact he’s lost the plot a bit imo and if he doesn’t watch himself he’ll become George Hook’s mini-me.
      I heard that interview first hand this morning and Pat was ott/foaming at the mouth a bit and I think actually this Ó Broin fella handled both him and the interview quite comfortably, one notable bit was when Pat wasn’t getting his way he tacked out of the blue to norn iron stuff. poor.
      Not so long ago Pat had his mate Gerry Madden on nearly every day during the Luas strike. BAD BAAD Luas drivers..GOOD GOOOD Luas Management. the pair of them like nodding dogs.
      the bias was unreal and of no service for any critical analysis atall.
      piss poor.

      1. Otis Blue

        I was tempted to say that Pat might need to go on gardening leave. But as you say “He lost the plot”.

        An expensive one too, by all account.

    4. Captain freegear

      Pat Kenny everyone’s favourite squatter and hero to the foxes in Killiney Hill; Bless him, the establishment shill

    1. Barracuda

      I always remember them constantly referring to Enda as the “would be Taoiseach” in the run-up to the 2007 GE, which they lost.

          1. rory

            Viewing the world in black and white generalities could be considered naive.

            Not to say that he isn’t a ‘blue shirt’, but judging from your answer you don’t seem to be aware of any examples of blue shirt views or blue shirt bias from Moncrieff.

          2. Jusayinlike

            In that same sentiment can you offer me any examples of him not being bias?
            Didn’t think so..
            All his colleagues are bias, but according to you he’s not, statistically speaking your talking out your hole

          3. rory

            Wow you really turned the tables there…
            I listen to him regularly enough. I havn’t heard him treat FG favorably in any of his presenting. I havn’t heard him promote FG views. I havn’t heard him ‘doing down’ the people who are critical of FG. Not to say that he hasn’t but I havn’t heard it.

            How about actually giving the show a listen, and if anything suggests blue shirt bias you can get back to me and call me naive and stuff.

          4. Jusayinlike

            You haven’t heard it so that means it doesn’t happen
            So like when your not looking at something it doesn’t exist, is that what your saying?

          5. rory

            Obviously not. That’s why I asked you for examples initially.

            Forget about it. Thanks for sharing your point of view. Maybe someone with examples of Moncrieffs FG bias could chime in, although I think we’re the only ones knocking around this thread at this stage.

  2. Vote Rep #1

    If anything, Ó Broin did pretty terrible there, especially for someone who is meant to be one of the brains in SF. Still though, its on Newstalk so its probably easier to rabble about blushirts.

    1. abaddon

      Rubbish. Go peddle your lies elsewhere.

      O’Broin was excellent.

      Pat Kenny made a show of himself and was practically frothing at the mouth interviewing Eoin. Constantly interrupting him as he dealt with the points Kenny was making.

      The ludicrous scenarios Pat Kenny was coming out with. The ‘man that washes his car everyday’ tripe.

      I’m sure that there must be someone out there that washes their car everyday but it’s probably because their medication ran out. :)

      What about the man that fills his swimming pool and empties it everyday?

      Pat Kenny should know better.

      1. some old queen

        Yup, 50% leaks on the network and having a bath more than twice a week is excessive.

        Always blame the little man, that is what has worked so far right?

  3. ahjayzis

    Kenny’s gone full Hibernia Forum since leaving the RTE shackles.

    Which is fine by me as I don’t listen to Newstalk.

    The really sad thing is O’Rourke on the other side is going full swivel eyed Tea Party loon with a dash of Iona Institute to compete.

    Two stale, geriatric male right-wingers dominating the 10-midday slot = podcasts for ahjayzis.

  4. Mourinho

    They’re both right.

    You should start with the big leaks first.

    And to track leakage or waste you need meters.

    Also, a simple way to bring in water charges would have been to have a giant annual allowance so that every bill was zero. Then reduce the allowance every year.

    1. some old queen

      Nope. To track leakage you need metrics from specific points on the network. not at people’s front doors.

  5. Joe Small

    Not an SF fan at all and I’m actually in favour of water charges but I think that was terrible interviewing by Kenny. I almost felt sorry for O’Broin at the end there. Kenny’s ideas are half-baked. He really made no attempt to be an impartial inquirer there. It is possible to be a tough, impartial interviewer, irrespective of your own political beliefs but its not something we see much of in Irish journalism.

  6. Bandy

    Under your systems I can throw gallons and gallons of water into the sea, every day, and there’s not a thing you can do about it.. yeah.. how do you like that.. AHAHAHAH… AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.. you cannot stop me.. I am the waterman.. I am the one who splashes..

    1. RuilleBuille

      Ironically the kind of people who would leave their taps on are land grabbers like Pat Kenny.

      Irish Water would have worked if it wasn’t so obviously designed to be sold to FGs favourite wealthy businessman after the tax payer had made it a profitable business.

  7. KM

    O’Broin was quality there, handled Kenny and his rubbish brilliantly. He’s the right man to put some of these presenters back in their boxes.
    Kenny and O’Rourke need to realise that every time they bully a shinner, the next shinner is better at handling them.
    The collective strop throwing by some in the media over the shinners is delightful to watch. They turn listeners away and drive the base support into a frenzy.

    1. DubLoony

      what’s missing is the tone of voice there, Kenny was getting riled at O’Broin’s refusal to answer the question: If you leave your tap on, there are no consequences under your plan.

      1. Vote Rep #1

        Yeah but nobody would do that except when people did it and the council were reduced to asking people on the radio not to do.

      2. ahjayzis

        Yet Irish people use less per capita potable water than other countries – where is your evidence that this is incorrect or that anyone has turned their tap into a water feature?

        Basically, where’s your cost-beneift analysis that we need to spend hundreds of millions of euro on a billing and detection system to find the tiny, tiny minority who leave their tap on for the laugh?

  8. Eamonn Clancy

    Pat’s on the money because he made loads of it out of the license payers. Rich man bemoaning poor poor because they don’t want to pay.

  9. Art Vandelay

    I normally read these transcripts and think one thing or another about them, but today I happened to be driving when this was on the radio so heard it first hand. What the transcript doesn’t portray at all is how animated Pat was getting. He actually sounded like he was foaming at the mouth. He went from zero to psycho is 2 seconds. The hilarious part to me was when he was shouting at him “Don’t be facile!” when he was after asking the most moronic question imaginable. This boogeyman of people leaving their taps on all day is laughable. Are we all secretly “The Wet Bandits” in disguise?!

    1. DubLoony

      Last time we had a deep freeze winter, a woman called Gerry Ryan & said leaving your taps on stops water from freezing your pipes.
      Not sure how many people heard but it was enough for Blessington lake to start draining. Ice & snow on the mountains meant that it wasn’t being re-filled. Water engineers had to turn off water to the city at night to stop it from running out.

      Leaving the taps running did happen.

      http://www.herald.ie/news/more-cuts-on-the-way-as-dubliners-warned-not-to-waste-tap-water-27968500.html

      1. Art Vandelay

        Sorry I understand that, what I more meant is that (in my opinion anyway) those are two different things. The way Pat was going on you’d think people were leaving taps on for the craic. In the scenario you describe above I still think people will leave their taps on to try and save their house if they think it will save them so the water will still be drained from blessington lake anyway. The fact that these people may be charged a massive water bill wont magic the ice & snow to refill the lake. If people are already not well enough off to have their pipes well insulated i’d really rather not put them in the situation where they are now worrying about leaving a tap dripping (the actual recommendation, not running) to save the house and not have a massive repair bill or pay a big water bill. YMMV.

        1. classter

          The point is, whether you accept it or not, that people don’t leave their taps running based on hearsay if there is a direct, continuous cost.

          So long as we don’t charge for a precious exhaustible resource, then we will not treat it as such.

      2. some old queen

        Taps left on at winder or 50% leakage on the network. Which do you think is the greatest eh?

        What I don’t get is even after the hammering at the last election, Labour STILL flog this dead horse. Why? Have they a death wish or something?

        1. classter

          It probably is not as high as 50%.

          That being said, the reason that it is so high is that up to now there has been no price but on water & no way of persuading govt to spend pots of cash on the continuous job of maintaining infrastructure.

      3. Paddy

        From your link.
        “A combination of burst mains caused by the cold weather and huge demand has led to the current situation.”
        Which part of burst mains do you not understand?

      4. Fact Checker

        I was in a relative’s house a while back. They do not have a meter installed for whatever reason.

        I noticed two things:
        1) a leaky cistern
        2) what turned out to be a burst valve in the gas boiler causing water to be released out an overflow pipe

        1) probably wasted 5 litres a day and was fixed in minutes
        2) probably wasted 100 litres a day and took a gas fitter to fix

        The problem with unmetred water is that it means that wastage will happen even as much through neglect as malevolence. This imposes a burden on everyone else. Believe me people start to notice these things when they have to pay for it.

        It’s a bit like litter. We have litter pickers paid for through general taxation, and we could employ lots more of them. But it is much cheaper to support a culture where people put their litter in a bin themselves.

        1. some old queen

          I was in a relative’s house a while back. They do not have a meter installed for whatever reason.

          Whatever reason would that be?

  10. Art Vandelay

    Strange… I just tried to listen back to it on that link you posted there and it conveniently starts AFTER all that kerfuffle described above.

  11. Jake38

    “Under our regime, the problems of wastage would be addressed and fixed, and households educated on waste water………….”

    Regime, yip.
    Re-education, yip.

    You heard it from his own mouth.

  12. bsteve knievel

    the communicorp stations are in danger of morphing into right wing us talk radio.some of the commentary on the bus strike has been terribly one sided with very little balance. I do think that there is a sector of the irish population who dont want to pay for anything.

  13. BobbyJ

    I had no idea that the unemployed and those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds did not pay VAT. Amazing!

  14. Anne

    Kenny: Let me put this point to you, your support, your votes, come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, out of work, can’t find work, and therefore pay no tax. So what you’re doing is shifting the burden onto the so-called ‘squeezed middle’, because people who pay no tax have no fear of general taxation.

    That’s the best bit.. that should be in bold right there.
    What a fupping tool. Kenny has no fear of logic, that’s for sure.

  15. Paddy

    Kennys problems are
    – he hasn’t the luxury of multiple researchers in that small tight office
    – his researcher is probably the other Kennys scriptwriter
    – he has to start work an hour earlier to try counteract O Rourke on RTE
    – he’s a waste of space.

  16. forfeckssake

    Putting in the abstain button is bollocks. They should be able to vote yes or no or not vote at all. Voting to abstain is just bull. It’s annoying that they’re spending money on a button for Fianna Fail to press so they feel that they are doing something.

    Essentially the button lets them vote for not voting.

  17. Truth in the News

    Half the water is lost in the defective water mains and then the consumer is asked
    to pay a water tax on the other 50% that he has paid twice for already, then its proposed to pipe water from the Shannon, no doubt to make up for the half thats
    lost, and then Pat Kenny prattles about running taps in a freeze up, yet he steered
    clear of who has cashed in on Water Meters, next time O’Broin is on, he needs
    to enlighten Kenny (the lessor) on what a waste Irish Water has been, maybe it
    might dawn on Kenny (the messer) what a monumental flop is being and its time to hop it…..in fact Kenny (the lessor) should stick to the whin bushes out in Killiney.

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