[Legal advice to the Oireachtas committee on funding of water] recommends that “levies” and not penalties be imposed on those who use excessive amounts.
The legal advice suggests that excessive usage should be set at 1.7 times the average household usage.
However, it later states that average usage would be decided on household size and also in line with average consumption, which is 133 litres per person, which Fianna Fáil has been proposing.
The advice proposes one further significant change: that it is mandatory for new builds to have meters, which was removed from the draft report last week.
Good times.
Legal advice goes against proposed water report changes (RTÉ)
Meanwhile…
Martin McMahon writes:
Anybody who is blessed with an older sibling has, at some time in their childhood, heard the “Mammy Says” half instruction half plea for you to do as your older sibling wants.
It’s a childhood thing, a tactic of coercion, a ‘you must do as I tell you because an authority figure agrees with me that you should’ power play.
Ultimately, it’s a sign of weakness, proof that the bossy older sibling has lost control.
This is exactly where Fine Gael are at in the Water Commission. Like overindulged toddlers in true blue babygrows, Fine Gael are throwing the rattle, the soother and the blankets out of the water charge pram.
They clutch to partisan EU opinions and legal advice as though they were handed down on Mount Sinai. They tell us that the Attorney General is infallible on water charges even as former Justice Minister Shatter calls for her head on foot of the Fennelly Commission report.
Fine Gael’s lack of humility, their ‘sore loser’ foot stamping, is an ignominious spectacle we are all forced to endure.
They lost the water charge argument at the last election, even the party faithful want it off the table as an issue. There are far more pressing problems piling up to be addressed.
Stop playing the spoiled brat Fine Gael, you lost, move on, LET IT GO.
Martin blogs at RamshornRepublic
Meanwhile…
In case you missed it.
Filmmaker Terry McMahon’s address to the Right2Water rally in Dublin last Saturday.
Stirring, in fairness.
Brexit, Trump, Syria, Isis, North Korea, Marine La Pen, climate change, etc, etc and we have…….water charges. A new low in Irish provincial triviality.
+ 1
-1 Rob G and the cult
Yeah, if only we had much worse problems to deal with! And of *course* Rob G plus 1s this insanity.
I’d agree normally but to tell you the gods honest, if we’re half as fupped by Brexit as ThemWhatKnow say we might be, I’d rather our politicians focussed their (heaven help us) minds on *that* rather than this eejitry.
Their handling of this shows we’re probably fupped no matter what happens. They are motivated by ego as opposed to pragmatism and empathy. We are governed by gombeens. No way will they get Brexit right.
…they’ll be long gone before the brexit date…a republican alliance between the FFers and Shinners should make the brexit debate a bit more political and a lot less economic…FG should be gone for a couple of generations…Pascal and the young Covey will be fighting it out when the next chaos dumps the FFers again…bye bye blueshirts…
well, yeah…there is that. :(
“a republican alliance between the FFers and Shinners should make the brexit debate a bit more political and a lot less economic”
Is this meant to be a good thing? Less about that economic stuff, more republican nationalistic stuff with regards the Brexit fallout?
…well the biggest economic argument that FG are coming up with is to say to the EU that we don’t want the billions from Apple…republican agenda will use the opportunity to put even more distance between us and the Brits…more Berlin than Bolton…
Well said.
The level of bovine comment both pro and con this “debate” has revealed the commentariat here for the obsequious and toenail licking frogspawn they are – taking their “news agenda” from gossip, innuendo and counter rumour about FG leadership contenders. Meanwhile the most seismic economics event since 2009 goes on repeat goes on RIGHT under the noise and the chattering class here FACILITATE government inaction and incompetence by almost completely not noting it or bothering to do ANY reporting, analysis or investigative work. Truly amazing
Parklife
hahahaha
Lots of big words and letters. Truly amazing
Think you’re a great wit? Well you’re halfway there
and living on a prayer
Tut tut – could this be classed as ‘Invective’ from our resident Ubermensch??
@ Sheik More ” kleine Mann auf der Straße” with access to a thesaurus than Uebermensch
Ballsy
Many thanks, Dead Poet
Life-affirming was it Sheik? To get some other barely sentient heifer’s afterbirth snort an indistinguishable dull groan (hark! is it one of encouragement?) in your general direction?
Worst comment I’ve read here. Well done.
I crave the negative reactions from monotonous halfwits like yourself. Absolute sheep. Lapping up “talking points” from overpaid media lickspittles, lackeys and puppets dispensing their regurgitated days- old gravy, you boys licking it off their sneakers.
Lackeys. Puppets. Od gravy. Absolute. Yourself. wooohooo Mrs Brown is playing Bingo with Terry Prone .
I prefer a waspish hiss to a dull groan , ratatitfortat
What exactly are you looking for the government to be doing about Brexit?
They should be forming an all party strategic task force to represent our national interest and lobby the negotiators on both sides.
Well it beats listening to your poo poo tbh rat..
Matt Cooper wrote a good article about lazy and ill informed opinions like yours in relation to Brexit.
https://www.businesspost.ie/business/barrage-criticism-government-faced-allegedly-nothing-ill-prepared-wrong-amounts-little-usual-small-minded-petty-politicking-383894
One thing we actually do quite well, and punch well above our weight at, is diplomacy.
We can’t read that Harry. Fair play for regurgitating some right wing Dinnytalk mouthpiece’s talking points though. I’m really in for it now am I? After exposing your secret social climbing fetish yesterday?
Easy enough to get around and your writing off the article without even reading it was pretty predictable.
Remember kids, it’s not what was said but who said it. Genius.
Quite a good piece though for any of the rest of the level headed commenters round here though.
And *you’re* level headed, right Harold? You and the rest of the ‘We’re not right wing but we keep spouting right wing ideology and specific right wing talking points’ Brain Trust, yeah?
Yeah. Especially when placed next to the Ian O’Doherty of the left :-)
Too lazy to cut and paste it even Harry? You have “people who do that for you” normally?
You want me to give my labour for free? Do your own copying and pasting comrade, I can only take you to the water
It’s just that if I could read the watery, middlebrow gibberish you’re swearing allegiance to Harry I could rubbish it even more
Yer as cute!
/tickles rats under his armies
Riiiiiiiiiiiight,
On what topics and to what outcomes do you want them to lobby both sets of negotiators?
Those topics and outcomes of specific concern to our national interest.
I’m a pro-Europe, proper lefty metropolitian libtard. But I really cringe at Fine Gael’s obsequiousness to Brussels on things like this and banking. And contrasted with their UKIP attitude to the Apple ruling, it really paints them in a bad light. They’re the joint branch office in Ireland for both US corporations and the European Commission.
Maybe but experience taught them that’s what pays the bills and keeps them in the big jeeps. Plus – we the people let them stay at it. What about yous over there though? Yous still have a fupping Queen for fupp she sake. One must not throw stones if ones residence is made of polytunnel vision. Or something.
What an odd response.
Are you weirded out? Good, because most of your comments are borderline hysterical. Ranting on about how AWFUL it is from your emigrant pigeon hatch. Careful you don’t poo on us.
Are you feeling a little inadequate today or something? That’s the most pathetic little whine I’ve heard on here for a while. I’m sorry I’m not rubbing your little ginger curls and calling you the best wee buachaill and sher isn’t de grass greener on de auld sod.
Alternatively, shove your shoulder chip the size of thirty-two Corks up your hoop you sad w@nker. The fupping state of you. Mortifying.
You’re not even going to try to deny your comments are those of a mortifyingly tedious bedwetter, whiner and whinger?
Rat ban coming very soon
Nah I’ll brazen it out, cheers, Rat!
Hope you’re okay and feel better later ;)
Ahjaysiz maybe your heart is in the right
place, but I generally find your comments and the way you put your points across overwrought, lacking in context or any kind of insight. Sorry.
Totally alright, Rat. I’m entirely comfortable with a negative review from some random saddo I didn’t know existed until an hour ago. Again, hope you’re okay!
Yea I can see you take the odd bit of constructive criticism well in fairness.
Does anyone know if it is true that each Water Meter has the resident’s Eircode hardcoded into it’s metadata ?
I’d say Bodger knows
More importantly Rat you don’t know..
I’d say that’s extremely unlikely for a number of reasons. If it were true, then they’d have to be damned sure they were delivering the correctly coded meter for every residence. The logistics of getting that right would be a problem. Plus, some meters pre-date the eircode system.
Far more likely that each meter has a serial number read off just after installation, then that is then matched to the address in an Irish Water database.
Far more likely they’re tracking your every move so they can sell your children to DOB, or something
Sam’s most likely correct.
I assume the 133 litres is a daily usage allowance?
Yup, it might cover one shower and two sh~!st, (pardon me, defecations). Way below average usage in other European countries. It appears that ‘the great unwashed’ will not be so by choice.
Yikes, average shower uses something like 65 litres.. low flow shower heads and flat hair for us all!
expensive water, expensive doctors, expensive drugs – we’ll turn into Flying Dutchman crew, lol!
EU will ask us to leave :-) Did you see that crazy@r$e banner at water protest – banner with ‘EireExit’ on it? It sounds funny if you read it fasht.
Probably AAA/PBP/SP/SWP/Solidarity heads.
So left wing they were as one with UKIP in delivering Britain to untrammelled Tory control over workers rights, standards, environmental laws… A destructive rabble. Like hiring a demolition crew to build your conservatory.
+1
-1 KFC
they seemed separate from everyone, and there was no water related posters held by them – must have chanced a pr opportunity
Celtic Party they are, just looked. Devalerish. Two cows and a harp on the landing page.
From t’internet
1 x 7 min shower @49L = 49
8 x toilet @8L = 64
0.25 x washing machine @65L = 16.25
0.16 x dishwasher @20L = 3.3
4 x cup of tea @ 0.25L = 1.0
Total: 133L
So 133 is a reasonable amount. You can reduce this by having a shorter shower, more efficient toilet.
Drinking of water should be set at the recommended 2 litres, not just 4 cups of tea in a whole day.
You also don’t allow for usage such as cooking, cleaning (floors, bathrooms, cars etc), or gardening, or pets. If I wash the car, does that mean I have to hold in some of my allowed toilet visits until the next day?
This could be a new currency in the house, rolled over toilet allowance, trading in a spare toilet visit.
The point being, there isn’t that much spare room in your allowance to accommodate other uses, though if you’re only drinking 1 litre of water a day, it’s likely you’ll need the toilet a lot less and will be constipated so you do save there.
Still, 800 million litres of water are lost due to leaks in the archaic water system that successive governments have failed to provide resources out the existing taxes for. So it seems reasonable that I should pay a levy for having a dump that requires a couple of flushes.
800 million litres. In terms of dumps, that is 100 million. In a population of 4.5 million, that’s 22 dumps each lost to poor water infrastructure.
A whole month’s worth of allowed dumps for every man woman and child in this country.
Perhaps successive governments haven’t been charging enough tax – hence the shortfall and the shoddy water supply?
Perhaps.
Or they didn’t allocate enough to local authorities for the water network and wasted money elsewhere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The issue, that if this all about conservation. If this is all about compliance with the nasty WFD, that the 800 million litres of water lost from the poor water network is a bigger priority and issue than how many times I’m allowed to go the toilet or have a cuppa.
133 litres sounds reasonable, except when you break it down and realise it doesn’t go that far (you still haven’t accounted for the recommended 2 litre consumption of water a day and only letting people have 4 cups of tea) or have that much leeway.
It sounds reasonable to create the bogeyman of excessive users when we don’t know if they actually exist. We know that 49% of the water is actually lost through the water network though that the state allowed to get into that condition. But yeah, it’s all about the excessive user bogeyman.
interestingly, my father-in-law (who’s a FOREIGNER from a FOREIGN LAND that has fairly high water charges) does not flush the toilet after a wee. It would only be flushed either after a poo or last thing at night (when everyone in the house has done their wees).
Personally, I find it a little bit horrible.
(From the colour of his wee, I can also tell that he saves on water input too)
Yuck to everything, especially the foreigner bit.
What other weirdo things does he do?
*Sigh* I was responding to Sheik’s “one shower and 2 flushes a day” with a more realistic breakdown showing that the 133L wasn’t drastic rationing. Yes, I underestimated the drinking/cleaning. So how about we have one fewer toilet flush… (http://www.worldometers.info/view/toilets/): but you could have a shorter shower (7 minutes is generous)
1 x 7 min shower @49L = 49
7 x toilet @8L = 56
0.25 x washing machine @65L = 16.25
0.16 x dishwasher @20L = 3.3
4 x cup of tea @ 0.25L = 1.0
1 x misc cooking, cleaning (floors, bathrooms, cars etc), or gardening, or pets, or a cuppa for your mammy when she calls around @ 8L = 8
Total 133L
that’s a world weary sigh Cian. What’s the story with the .16 of a dishwasher? You use the dishwasher once a week?
This is just water charges by the back door.
Once privatised, the ‘Excessive Usage’ charge is applied to anything over a Hogan trickle.
Your paying in the end & exploited with the same opened ended cap on charges that the insurance & waste co..etc.. for the rest of time….enjoy.
But yeah..brexit ehh?
+1 Jimmy
i get a charge out of getting water by the back door. i call it “paying in the end.”
Funny- we already pay- all the time, not “in the end”.
You lost me at Terry McMahon (who, admittedly was at the end of the article)
The odious cult still clinging on to its fig leaf even in the face of smouldering destruction..
lamentable..
blushirt privatisation plans, down the drain….
+1 dav as always
Yourself and dav should go live together under the sea
I know I’m winning when I’m annoying you heironimous..
too much monekey business
I look forward to Right2Electricity, Right2Food, and Right2Clothes, and whatever other essentials are to be paid for through general taxation (without regards to who uses how much), given that it has been such an effective system for our water services.
Do you mean double taxation Rob?
Actually the state does provide this, either in cash or in kind.
The thing is that it is done pretty rigorously on the basis of household income, age or need.
I mean ‘water charges’.
I was thinking more along the lines of a system that would provide some sort of incentive for conservation, which the ‘paid for through general taxation’ model does not.
aka profit for hedge fund shareholders in a privatised water company
I’m glad your concern is water conservation. Taxation has been paid, but it was never invested in the water network which leaves us with an archaic system unfit for purpose and which loses 49% of water. That and the 170 water pollution incidents caused by water treatment plants due to lack of investment. That and the dire state of sewer treatment plants, due to lack of investment.
Yet the line is all about “excessive” use by domestic households. Of course it reasonable to make those who excessively use water pay for it. It seems so reasonable when you don’t quantify what “excessive” use is or have any statistics on the numbers who do “excessively” use.
We do have facts on 49% of water lost due to leaks though. We have paid considerable taxes already that have not gone towards water treatment or the water network, but now it’s all about water conservation and the mythical excessive user.
*you’re*
Yep. Right wing ideology is all the minions have.
Do you Rob? Fair play to you – I look forward to seeing your posters and your clarion calls to action. Or might you just sit on your hole, criticising others who are trying to do something?
I actually do think people shouldn’t starve, freeze, sleep in the rain or be forced to be naked in one of the richest countries in the world… I must be a MONSTER!
Forced to be naked? Ooh saucy
*Unless they explicitly request that they be forced to be naked. Because that’s different.
#heya
#SIR
I agree with you.
But do you think that we should all have unmetered electricity and gas, and it be paid for out of general taxation? Do you not think that that might provide a perverse incentive not to conserve either of these commodities?
Water is the same as electricity and gas in the mad world of the right wing ideologue.
+1 moyest..
Actually the model is not too different from electricity.
High fixed costs from generation and network infrastructure. Less actual variable cost from fuel inputs.
I do not know of any western country that provides free electricity, or indeed levies a simple flat charge per household.
I wasn’t comparing business models but your response is a great insight into right wing thinking. Why is ‘those guys are doing it’ an argument anyway?
Of course not. But I don’t think people who it’s been established are in really dire financial straits should ever have their heat cut off. Electricity isn’t an optional luxury item in 2017.
We demand Right2Pussy
And Social Justice for David Norris eh rat…
What’s that all about?
Ask rat he knows all about that comment
Good question. Some weirdo that keeps trolling me.
pot kettle
How will anyone be able to prove or disprove the size of their household?
Situation A: You tell IW you are a one-person household, and then your family grows but you forget to tell IW. You get hit with a ‘levy’ for excessive usage.
Situation B: You tell IW you are a seven-person household, when really there is only one of you, so you can fill your swimming pool without being hit with a levy.
It is the same nonsense with the TV licence were several hundred thousand households avoid it without much consequence.
This is the typically unworkable Panglossian stuff you get from Oireachtas Committees.
It’s really just a fiddle to get around the Water Framework Directive though, innit? Á la the 2007 FF Act?
If so, job done, that’s it working as designed.
Fig leaf to keep the quango going with a view to privatising as soon as the masses go dumb again
The committee’s recommending a referendum on banning that. Yay!
No.
If so, do you think the European Commission would see through it?
Doesn’t really matter. It’s the ECJ that’ll sit in judgement, if it’s compliant with the letter if not the spirit of the Directive it’s happy days.
I’ve a lot of sympathy with the argument that Ireland’s a bit overly zealous in following EU rules to the absolute max, on procurement and the like. The French and others tend to circumvent a lot more and do the letter not spirit thing. Like splitting large contracts up into smaller ones so you don’t need to invite tenders from abroad. It just makes sense.
Okay. The ECJ will only adjudicate if one party decides to litigate.
In any case, do you think the ECJ will see through it?
Here is the relevant part of the WFD:
“Member States shall ensure by 2010
– that water-pricing policies provide adequate incentives for users to use water resources efficiently, and thereby contribute to the environmental objectives of this Directive,
– an adequate contribution of the different water uses, disaggregated into at least industry, households and agriculture, to the recovery of the costs of water services, based on the economic analysis conducted according to Annex III and taking account of the polluter pays principle.
Member States may in so doing have regard to the social, environmental and economic effects of the recovery as well as the geographic and climatic conditions of the region or regions affected.”
bit like vrt VAT and double taxation..
Well I’m not a lawyer but that’s not all that prescriptive is it?
You will be charged a levy if you use an excessive amount – disincentive to overuse.
An adequate contribution from households? Of course. Via progressive general taxation. Businesses may pay charges, but households pay many, many times more tax than businesses as a total figure. The split in usage is fairly even if I recall correctly.
Polluter pays? Everyone who sh1ts is contributing to the upkeep of sewage treatment plants via taxation, which takes care of the pollution. If those sewage treatment plants are leaking effluent into the rivers – is it not Irish Water or private plant operators that’s ‘the polluter’?
The last paragraph sounds written especially for Ireland. We don’t have a shortage of water. We’re actually producing 40% more potable water than we need, then pissing it away into cracks in the mainline pipes.
Wow. That analysis of EU directives by Ahjaysiz was blinding in its insight. Particularly loved his erudite and illuminating deconstruction of the “polluter pays” principle. A village somewhere is NOT missing its idiot.
You’re an idiot.
Dinnybot radio yesterday “How can Right2Water candidates expect people to pay into general taxation to subsidise people who waste water?”
The ultimate drop mic answer “Why do we pay bank losses, why do we pay 42% of EU bank bailout, why should we pay, with an austerity tax, for what others wasted?”
I stopped paying taxes the day I learned that unhealthy people expect the same public healthcare I do.
Regarding Terry McMahon’s “stirring” rhetoric, this is a hoot: https://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/08/terry-mcmahon-v-donald-clarke/
If you’re wondering what kind of guy Terry McMahon is, this is from his Twitter a few weeks back (on Mother’s Day)
Terry McMahon @terrymcmahon69 Mar 26
Mother died way back. Very sad. Then realised that her death, Mother’s Day & Twitter can be used to solicit some sympathy sex. Happy Me Day!
Did he get his hole though?
Clue’s in his twitter address.
Trawling his Twitter feed looking for leverage, well done you sleuth you..
Indeed
And?
That was to ‘joak ‘
There’s no such thing as ‘Happy Me Day’ – a Hallmark fact.
Might we dare ask where the figure of 133 litres per person came from. Was it ‘pulled out of someone’s arse ‘ like so much in this country?
I see you’ve dialled back in the invective since I marked your card the other day Sheik. The 133 litres is based in on a UK study I believe. The examiner reports that 150 litres a day is the average per person but a reputable USA source has a much higher number than that
https://www.epa.gov/watersense/start-saving
snore..
Worthless bum, grow up and move out of your moms
Yo Rat. Is sb puttng a gun to your head and telling you to all insult all on broadaheet ? sounds like there could be an ulterior motive behind all this rubbish that you spew. be careful you don’t become that which you despise. you sound sad. I mean that in the nicest possible way.
Madness, this is his 5/6 different avatar, he keeps getting banned for insulting people..
Might we then reasonably infer that our ‘generous water allowance ‘ (they keep repeating generous) has been deliberately set too low in order to levy charges for “excessive use”? Or are we just filthy in comparison with British people?
That’s some enema, though, in fairness.
I know justsayinlike. there is a link to them all as well. broadsheet need to figure it out.
Who are Irish Water?
I’m not a customer of theirs and never will be.
Beats me, Walter, beats me.
Cult quango with a nefarious agenda..
like the Knights of malta.
Or Opus Dei
Imelda May
Terry McMahon – film maker
Fair City psycho more like.