“If You Mark ‘Yes’, That Pencil Becomes A Knife”


Last night.

Clontarf Castle, Dublin 3.

Several hundred people attended a Pro Life meeting  to hear various speakers, including businessman Declan Ganley, journalist John Waters, Niamh UiBhriain of Save the 8th and Vicki Wall of Every Life Counts, speak in favour of voting No in the Referendum on the Eight Amendment of the Constitution.

Via Independent.ie

Playwright, author and journalist John Waters accused pro-choice campaigners and the media and of using ‘sleight of hand’ tricks “to conceal the truth”.

“We don’t have a press anymore,” he said to more raucous applause.

Everything is lies, everything is twisted. That’s that you have to get across to people,” he added.

He likened the very notion of holding the referendum on repealing the 8th to the sinister prospect of holding a referendum on exterminating the homeless as a means of dealing with the homeless and housing crisis.

“We don’t have the right to tamper with these things,” he said.;

“If you mark yes (on the ballot), that pencil becomes a knife,” he concluded to a standing ovation.


From top: John Waters and Declan Ganley, John Waters, Declan Ganley, Niamh UiBhriain, Vicki Wall, John Waters and David Quinn.

Monster’ pro-life meeting hears from number of high-profile speakers (Alison brya, Indpendent.ie)


155 thoughts on ““If You Mark ‘Yes’, That Pencil Becomes A Knife”

    1. scottser

      ‘He likened the very notion of holding the referendum on repealing the 8th to the sinister prospect of holding a referendum on exterminating the homeless as a means of dealing with the homeless and housing crisis.’

      and he would know how to twist and lie, wouldn’t he?

  1. qwerty123

    There is abortion in Ireland, this vote is about women’s health. These cranks don’t or won’t realise this.

    1. david

      Fact is that pen will be a knife
      Life will be terminated
      Once that protection for the unborn goes ,we only hope abortion on demand dose not replace it.
      Bit like the argument regarding the constitutional right for water to belong to the people
      The only difference is we are talking human life

      1. ReproBertie (SCU)

        Fact is it’ll still be a pencil.

        If repeal passes then the people will have decided so who’s this “we” you’re talking about?

          1. ReproBertie (SCU)

            As in a nation that will have voted to Repeal the 8th and cleared the way for government to legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks?

      2. Cian

        Fact is – Irish women are already choosing to have abortions. 150,000 of them have taken place in the last 40 years.

        All that repealing the 8th will do is to allow most of them have their abortion in Ireland – rather than forcing them to travel.

          1. Sentient Won

            Do you understand English Frilly?

            An ‘option’ is a thing that may or may not be chosen.

            Abortion is not the only option for a pregnant women.

            To claim this medical procedure to destroy the unborn life is a woman’s ONLY option is to equate pregnancy with a disease, equate the unborn with a tumor, equate motherhood with illness.

          2. The Ghost of Starina

            If they need an abortion, they are forced to travel for it. You know exactly what Frilly meant.

          3. andydufresne2010

            He’s going to say nobody ‘needs’ one. I really think debating with the radical NO side is pointless. Just stick to debating people who are actually interested in debate.

          4. Frill the 8th

            First of all
            You must learn to read what you actually wrote here

            “Nobody is forced to travel for an abortion.

            That’s their choice.”

            Yes; they are forced to travel for the procedure FACT
            Since nothing else is available, Choice is denied FACT

            I know you struggle with facts
            but if you want to keep up with this
            you better get it together

          5. Sentient Won

            But… but… but…

            Isn’t the whole Abortion campaign defining itself as ‘Pro-choice’?

            Somebody’s confused here.

            Your brain has been scrambled.

            You maybe should go outside, lie down and breathe some fresh air.

          6. Frill the 8th

            Ah pet
            did your school not have a remedial teacher

            PRO Choice = my family planning, healthcare and lifestyle are MY decisions to make, and should be in my control and not decided for me. And I am already entitled to Privacy so why do you think you should have something to say about what I, a law abiding, of full adult age and capacity, fully tax compliant citizen, decide ON ANYTHING

            Like, if you are that so sure of your own arguments being right, then lets introduce compulsory vasectomies and or castrations
            for the lads that swear and publicly declare celibacy
            for the lads convicted of rape, sexual assault
            for ALL pedophiles
            for the down loaders of Child Porn
            any Lad diagnosed with a Venereal Disease
            Lads already married in the Catholic Church having children with women who is not their wife

            is that simple enough for you
            like its not inflamed or gorey or bloody
            and no amateur actors, fantasists, religious zealots, or mythical gods are quoted

            so if you are still struggling
            maybe tis you that needs a break

          7. qwerty123

            @Sentient Won
            You are correct, its a choice of humanely and compassionately traveling to your local doctor OR getting the ferry/pane to the UK as is happening now with the extra health implications of this and the inhumane manner we treat mothers with nonviable pregnancies.

      1. Cu Cullan

        It’s about a society choosing to not chain pregnant women to beds and then, against their will, cut their stomach open.

        1. david

          That might be so in a society that has no clause or constitutional law to protect the unborn
          In Nazi Germany they removed the constitutional right of Jews
          The rest is history
          We have a chance to ensure the unborn are protected under our constitution
          We can amend it with a change that will protect the life of the unborn and the mother by specific reason for termination to ensure suicide, incest, rape, fatal foetal abnormality are the only reasons for termination
          Rape and incest are on reported cases to the garda to insure due process dose not delay the killing of a viable baby which if the mother has to carry it to full term will endanger their lives, by the emotional torment of the crime she has been subjected to

          1. Cian

            “In Nazi Germany they removed the constitutional right of Jews”
            Interesting: can you provide a link to this please?

          2. The Ghost of Starina

            “We can amend it with a change that will protect the life of the unborn and the mother by specific reason for termination to ensure suicide, incest, rape, fatal foetal abnormality are the only reasons for termination”

            Why do you think “the unborn” who are conceived by incest or rape are worth less than those conceived consensually? Like if you’re actually pro-life shouldn’t you be against any termination at all?

            Do not equate a fetus with a fully-formed Jewish person. That is horrendously offensive to me as a Jew, nevermind as a woman. Do not use the Shoah to justify your neurotic sadism.

          3. david

            Cain read history
            Before they could tackle the Jewish problem they had to remove their constitutional right under german constitutional law
            When Hitler came to power he could not wave a magic wand and hey presto Jews in ovens

          4. david

            I was talking about constitutional rights and the dangers when a constitutional law is changed removing the rights of a section of humanity
            I doubt you are a Jew and if you are you out of all should realise implications of the removal of constitutional laws.
            And check Israelis abortion laws and you will see liberal but not abortion on demand all justified by the shoah
            As for the rapes if it means the mother is suicidal then for humanity’s sake
            These are the arguments
            Mine are solutions other than removing any rights for the unborn protection in our constitution
            This would ensure abortion on demand could never be brought in without consent of the people

          5. Cian

            “In Nazi Germany they removed the constitutional right of Jews”

            I can find where the Nazis in 1933 passed the Enabling Act – which nullified the Constitution. But I can’t see where they “they removed the constitutional right of Jews”. So if it’s not to much bother can you provide a link to this please?

        2. david

          Its against the law to chain women up or cut their stomach open
          So stop those lies
          What you propose is a process bordering on sticking a hoover inside a woman
          Then there is the scoop and purge method or the drag the foetus through the birth channel then an instrument is used to empty the skull of what could be a child
          Google the different types of abortion
          And in all cases the woman can be infected during the process

          1. The Ghost of Starina

            Oh you ARE new here, to question my Jewishness.

            Well. We’re never going to change your repugnant little mind, so off you go.

  2. TheRealJane

    I know that there will be people who won’t like this, but there genuinely is something about aulfellas arguing against young women having the right to control their bodies that gives me the absolute boak.

    1. mildred st. meadowlark

      Yeah. Reminiscent of dirty fingernails and that unwashed smell of someone who smokes just a few too many cigarettes.

        1. mildred st. meadowlark

          Hah! I’ll give you that, dave. I had a good laugh.

          But no, I don’t smoke. I am, however, a fan of Magritte. Hence the avatar.

          1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            When we visited Brussels, pretty much the entire collection was on tour. Typical.
            I love him too. More than Dalí, I must say.

          2. mildred st. meadowlark

            That’s proper crap altogether. I must try see his stuff next time I’m in Brussels (she sez having never visited Brussels).

            I’ve seen more than my fair share of Dali, mind. I’d probably sell my soul for a Monet.

          3. david

            New to you he was a man
            I would say more Hilda Ogden
            I actually think though marlin Dietrich minus the beret

          4. mildred st. meadowlark

            I am well aware he is a man, thank you.

            The avatar is a painting of his wife Georgette. It’s one of my favourites.

          5. The Ghost of Starina

            Monet was my first proper art exhibit. I was 12. Sigh. I will never, ever get tired of the Water Lillies.

          6. mildred st. meadowlark

            I will never forget the first time I saw the Water Lillies. I cried a little.

            I love his series of the Cathedral at Rouen, and his Westminster ones too.

          7. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            Heh. Like the time I had to gently tell a girl that Evelyn Waugh was a man. She was wanging on about loving her writing. “He’s a MAN, you stupid dope,” said I, gently.

            I realise that the above exchange is nothing like my story. I just wanted to crowbar it in.

        2. Papi

          david, do you see how the wonderful Mildred rises above your bilious little puffings? Because she is a mensch. Which you are not.

          1. Papi

            A dog that barks once gets listened to. A dog that yaps yaps yaps all day long, does not. Do you see which category you belong to, david?

    2. Martco

      /s but shure any youngwan under 35 isn’t mature enough to make these kinds of decisions for themselves! we all know this to be true. that’s why likes of John Waters there has to help educate them, keep them safe from themselves like.

    3. The Ghost of Starina

      Reminds me of the time I went to the GP at Brady’s Pharmacy on Harrington St. I needed to renew my birth control prescription and he was ultra old-school. instead of asking for my address he said, “Do we know where we live?” and then questioned whether it was smart to take these kind of chemicals in case I would want children soon. No, mate. Gimme the prescription, I know my own self. Never went back. Creepy old-school vibes.

      1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

        I’d be all ‘l’esprit de l’escalier’ on that one, muttering “I certainly know where I live, don’t you?” to myself as I marched down the road afterwards in a temper.

          1. Cian

            I can never remember what it’s called when I need it.
            ironically, I usually remember a while later.

    4. Sentient Won


      Of course women have the right to control their bodies.

      But that also means they must take responsibility for their actions.

      1. TheRealJane

        How do you interpret this? Because it sounds like you think that being forced to continue a pregnancy and endure childbirth against your will is the appropriate punishment for something. For the crime of being sexually active? Sexually abused? Your foetus having a condition incompatible with survival?

        How is having an abortion abdicating that responsibility?

        Do you lads never think through what you say?

        1. Sentient Won

          If you’re going to terminate a pregnancy then you’re destroying a human life that is separate and distinct from your own.

          Are you prepared to live with that responsibility? That burden? Is that easier then accepting a new life into the world? Is your lifestyle (and Abortion is a lifestyle choice for the main, not a medical necessity) worth the life of another human being.

          These are the responsibilities for a woman choosing abortion: Life or death.

          Babies are good news. Destroying Human Life is the opposite of good news.

          So yes, women should take responsibility for their actions and choose life.

          1. The Ghost of Starina

            Yes, I am prepared to live with that responsibility. that’s why I’m voting yes.

          2. Lush

            The point is, as far as I can understand, that women should be allowed the right to decide for themselves. And that includes living with the repercussions of that decision. It is surely a fundamental and basic thing? If you don’t want an abortion, then don’t have one, but don’t deny that right to others.

          3. Sentient Won

            So for you Abortionistas, lifestyle is more important than life itself.

            Lets let than sink in for a moment…

            So what happens when this referendum goes the opposite to the way you want it?

            Are you prepared to rig the vote to get what you want?

            After all, you rigged the Citizen’s Assembly, controlled the vote in the Dail and produced a plethora of fake news to push your agenda.

            Sure what’s one more Machiavellian act to ensure the preservation of your precious lifestyle?

          4. Nigel

            Yes, a woman has the right to make these choices about her own life and how she lives it, well done, you’ve got it.

          5. ReproBertie (SCU)

            Don’t stop there SW! Abortionistas brought down Tower 7, control the central banks, covered up the UFOs, faked the moon landings, made Steve Guttenberg a star and shot JR! All funded by Soros to help further Bill Gates’ vaccination eugenics programme.

    5. david

      And your father?
      News for you
      You and your family one day will be old
      Old and young have the right to decide their constitutional law and our politicians only right is to do what the people tell them
      They serve us

      1. Nigel

        Yes they do, which makes it odd that you want to see their hands tied when it comes to enacting legislation by keeping an ill-conceived and frankly disastrous amendment in the constitution.

        1. david

          I do not want politicians to bring in abortion on demand full stop
          This referendum will and rightly fail because they decided to be firstly economic with the truth and secondly possibly have a solution to save money by allowing all babies that could be a Burdon on services no right to life
          Abortion on demand will cover that
          We do not know exactly how extreme it will be but once the path is clear no one can stop them
          The result will be many savita’s and no change

          1. Nigel

            Slippery slope fallacy is a fallacy for a reason, which is that conjuring up the worst extremes to scaremonger against a moderate and restrictive proposal is dishonest and hysterical. The No campaign are the ones who have been caught repeatedly lying. and the Burdon thing is a vile slander with no basis in reality.

        2. painkiller

          You know Nigel, for all your signaled virtue and valor, people like you tend to be kinda creepy in real life – and not very respecting of women when it comes down to it….

          Please don’t reply with “takes one to know one” etc etc.

    6. realPolithicks

      “but there genuinely is something about aulfellas arguing against young women having the right to control their bodies that gives me the absolute boak”

      Isn’t that how its been in Ireland for the last 100 years? Everything from the mother and baby homes all the way down to the 8th amendment has been about controlling women, body and mind. It needs to end.

  3. ReproBertie (SCU)

    If I’m on opposite sides of a debate to John Waters then I’m in a good place.

      1. Brother Barnabas

        interesting divergence in approaches to how a middle-aged man taken should dress being taken by waters, quinn and ganley, respectively. waters and ganley are at opposite ends of the spectrum – equally naff but for different reasons; quinn is in the middle. like a sartorial spitroast.

  4. dylaad

    Oh crap. I am getting a feeling of déjà vu about all this. Seem to remember laughing over my craft beer at people like Ganley and Waters a good bit in 2016.

  5. Martco

    being pedantic I know but isn’t voting with a pencil technically a spoilt vote?

    (shhhhh…nobody tell em rite?)

    1. Cian

      Why? I’ve always used the pencil provided in the polling station.

      They are actually quite nice pencils – I went back at closing once and get a few of them for drawing with.

      The (a) reason for pencils over pens is that if the paper gets wet the pencil mark remains. Ink would run.

      1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

        Did you really go back to get some pencils? I like reading your posts. You have an interesting brain.

        1. Cian

          yes – they are a bit like a 4B or 5B pencil but much darker – almost black. Lovely to draw with.

          (and thanks!)

          1. mildred st. meadowlark

            Never knew that. But I know I’ll be raiding my community centre when the time comes.

          2. andydufresne2010

            Ever use an F? It has the hardness of a H but it’s a lot darker (not as dark as HB). Great control.

          3. Nigel

            Now they use knives and to vote yes you will need to STAB A PICTURE OF A BABY OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A MAD SCREAMING FRENZY otherwise the vote is spoiled.

          4. Spud

            Speaking of pencils, my mate Dave is marrying one.
            He’s bringing her our for dinner tomorrow with his parents so they can meet his bride 2B…

      2. Martco

        mmmm ok fair enough, it’s always been pen in my case, maybe isn’t defined and just my local polling station…just I’ve seen plenty of state & corporate formfilling documentation where it’s stated. I would have assumed pencil v pen leaves something more open to manipulation.

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Pencils in polling booths are more like a black colouring pencil than a regular erasable 2b. There has always been pencils in polling booths so this recent paranoia is very odd. Marking in pen doesn’t make it less indellible because attempts to erase would result in a big dirty mark being left on the form. And anyway, if someone is that determined to interfere, they’d just have a load of the ballots marked with the result they want to go into the box and that kind of tampering doesn’t happen here.

          1. TheRealJane

            Yes. It’s hard to imagine how this tampering would work. You’d need scores of people all over the country industriously opening ballot boxes, rubbing out, remarking and resealing without whispering a word of their endeavors. How would they do this? How would they know how many to re-cast? I mean, you’d have to make it realistic – you couldn’t change too many. You only have between 11pm and 7am to calculate and perform this task.

            It’d be a ridiculously easy to foil conspiracy.

          2. italia'90

            The dead get up to vote here, some of them vote early and vote often too ;)
            We have an interest in last weeks Hungarian election in our house so we have been following events over there and I read the report from the O.S.C.E. (PDF link)

            They have free and open elections but there were serious cases of abuse and voter fraud which were not documented, but hinted at, in the report.
            Over 500,000 votes were posted in from outside Hungary, not including votes by Hungarian citizens at embassies and consulates.
            If your parents or grandparents were born in Hungary, you can vote in the election. Just send an application to Fidesz/KDNP. Just so happens, you will qualify for a handsome state pension/benefit payment if you do.
            Then there were the cases of buses sent to border crossings with Romania, Slovakia, Ukraine and Austria on the morning of the election. They were brought to villages along the border where turn out was greater than expected. Imagine that. Some addresses inside the Hungarian border with Ukraine had 30 voters registered in them, but when another bus was sent to pick them up, there was nobody there to pick up. The houses were either boarded up or derelict.
            I see our lovely leader is good mates with their dear leader. Birds of a feather and all that.

  6. Digs

    Don’t like theme there individuals, but conflating there beliefs with patriarchy is a bit disingenuous. They were part of a panel that also included women speakers. And, believe it or not, many people simply don’t believe that a women’s ” choice” trumps the right to life, and that biological autonomy is a one way street. Surely they’re allowed take an oppositional stance? Won’t change how I vote, but I can’t help but notice the dogmatic extremes on both sides.

    1. TheRealJane

      So if biological autonomy is not a one way street, you think a foetus should be able to abort the woman?

      1. Digs

        That’s not very helpful Jane. I’m simply suggesting another view. It’s not my view and I can see, it’s certainly not your view. Try not to be childish.

        1. TheRealJane

          No, I’ll be as childish as I choose.

          What do you mean by biological autonomy is not a one way street?

        2. ahjayzis

          How it unhelpful? If a woman and a fetus are equal – why can the woman not be sacrificed for the fetus?

          It’s not being childish to bring the other sides view to it’s logical conclusion.

    2. ahjayzis

      Who said they’re not allowed to take an oppositional stance? Who’s trying to stop them?

      We want them to lose, not be sent to a gulag.

  7. Grace

    Professional busy-bodies John Waters and David Quinn are at it again.
    Gays can’t have rights! Now women can’t have rights! I wish time travel was possible, so we could send them back to 1950 – it’s a win win for everyone…

    Also just noticed this quote:

    “Everything is lies, everything is twisted. That’s that you have to get across to people,” he added.

    Haha that’s basically a description of every No poster I’ve seen so far!

    1. Cian

      I saw one this morning:
      “if you don’t want 6-month-term babies aborted – vote no” (I’m paraphrasing)
      and I’m thinking “WTF has this got to do with the referendum?”

      I would consider tearing down those posters that are so irrelevant and twisting the truth.

  8. ahjayzis

    From installing garbage fire John McGuirk as their leader to wheeling this open sewer out to preach, I’m LOVING the pro-life campaign right now.

  9. The Ghost of Starina

    How does Waters reconcile supporting actual fascists with being “pro-life”?!

  10. missred

    David Quinn is the image of another anti-woman loon in the US, that fella Paul Ryan. I’ve only just noticed, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense now.

    1. missred

      Nope, mostly a vacuum type thing. The auld uterus can be dilated with instruments but it’s unlikely to be a knife.

      1. Frill the 8th

        Thought So
        Thanks everyone

        so can we make this about Mr Waters
        “Everything is lies, everything is twisted. That’s that you have to get across to people,”

        ’cause what I came up on twitter last night took me to depths I never imagined

        no humanity or any decent citizen can survive there
        Yet the No Anti Choice Iona advocates seem to thrive in it

        help stop this
        get up and get the YES vote out
        do not let anything these people promote or produce or present go unchallenged

        The Repeal vote represents far more now than just Health Care, Choice and Equality

  11. Murtles

    Ahhh poor auld John. Crawls out of the obscurity he was confined to due to no one gives a sh-1-t what he says anyway. Years awaiting an issue to grasp and give his 1/2 cent on to try to get back into the limelight. No bandwagon too small.

  12. wellness

    I bet John Waters goes all Norma Desmond in the boudoir. “I’m going to be bigger than peanut butter”.

  13. Sham Bob

    Turn your swords into ploughshares, your knives to pencils, your books to firewood, your brains to mush.

  14. Daisy Chainsaw

    Same crowd against marriage equality as against healthcare. They hate that they’re losing control to women and quares.

    1. painkiller

      no, they just know a mob when the see one. you know it’s ok for someone to have a different perspectives and set of concerns than you.

      last time Mr Waters was called a homophobe on live television. the appalling standards of civil discourse around that referendum prompted him to resign from journalism. what will ye label him this time? he’s a relatively intelligent man, he certainly deals in honesty and compassion and he articulates some valid counter-arguments, not that we should be afraid to hear them or anything.

        1. ReproBertie (SCU)

          Speaking of opposing social progression, let’s not forget Waters appearance and the Irexit gathering.

        2. newsjustin

          I know you’re pro choice, but you can’t really believe that aborting human foetuses is social progress, can you?

          1. Daisy Chainsaw

            Giving women access to full healthcare is social progress.
            Unforced pregnancy is social progress.
            Women not having to carry a rapist’s baby to term is social progress.
            Girls not having to carry their father’s baby to term is social progress.

            Are you okay with rapists having rights over the contents of their victim’s uterus?

        3. painkiller

          That same crowd can spot a power-mad mob justice movement dressing itself up as colourful social progress – but sees nothing wrong with calling a man (not present to defend himself) a homophobe on live television because his views on marriage are rooted in the nuclear family.

          1. SOQ

            You forgot one important point, Waters threatened to sue RTÉ. As for his views on the nuclear family etc, just exactly how many partners has he actually had?

            Do as I say not as I do etc.

            Trump has strong views on marriage too of course. He’s on his third and counting. Bit of a pattern there I think.

  15. Rois

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – whatever John Waters wants you to do, do the opposite. Your life will be all the better for it

  16. painkiller

    I’ve always been generally in favour of access to abortion (i.e. abortion on demand) but moral values have plummeted alarmingly in just a few short years to the point where we are very willing to tell ourselves that the value of the unborn is zero in order to avoid responsibility and alleviate the guilt. Next we will try to break the negative stigma around making a decision to terminate a pregnancy.

    And, if we are going to enter an utterly amoral Brave New World style arena, we should at least be fair about it and give the rights to both people involved – as in, have a legal situation where a foetus is only allowed to enter the 2nd trimester if BOTH parents consent to it – and if the father is not made known at that point, he has no further obligations.

    1. Nigel

      I love how your idea of ‘fair’ comes round full circle to giving men the final say over women’s bodily autonomy.

      1. painkiller

        I smell horse dung, it must be a white knight ;)

        That bodily autonomy argument kind of weakens where raising a child is concerned. Even if there was law around consent that would allow a man to absolve himself of parental responsibility, what kind of person could feel ok turning his back on a newborn child? Morally speaking, it’s in a similar ball park as deciding to terminate a pregnancy.

        I guess, for you a progressive outcome is one where the man has no voice whatsoever in things that will shape the rest of his life. If you ever found yourself in such a powerless position, you might re-calibrate your views. The reality is that contraceptives have a failure rate and sometimes people mislead each other. I suppose you’ve never heard of a girl trying to tie a guy down….only men could be capable of something so vindictive!

        1. Nigel

          You see once the child is out of the body it is no longer about bodily autonomy and now about interpersonal relationships and possibly a matter for family courts. You shouldn’t be able to force a woman to either have a baby or not have a baby and if you don’t like it imagine trying to push a melon out through your penis and ask yourself how much of a legally binding say you’d like anyone else to have in whether you should have to do it or not. And you smelt it you dealt it.

          1. painkiller

            eh, I’m not sure make genitalia was designed for that sort of thing, but anyway…this isn’t about pregnancy, it’s more about what happens after that. As in, the life changing responsibility that you may not have consented to. Men have no reproductive rights or say, and you seem to be fine with that. Next stop, a gyno-centric society.

            How about a fairer society that decides on fairness on a case by case basis rather than one that awards power based on a oppressor-oppressed scoreboard.

          2. Nigel

            Thank goods the gynoverladies are actually allowing men to vote in the upcoming referendum! If only we didn’t need their permission to vote at all! Why oh why won’t they let men vote on any and all medical treatments associated with their reproductive health, the monsters?

        2. SOQ

          I know of quite a number of women who are raising a child by themselves or with a new partner after their relationship broke down. I only know of one man doing likewise and that is because the mother had serious issues to resolve.

          A mother will not leave a child so a new pregnancy affects her much more than anyone else. Therefore, it is up to her as to whether she proceeds or not. I trust women to make the right decision.

          You clearly don’t.

          1. painkiller

            I think you either misread me or you can’t bring yourself to empathise with my point. I think it’s very unlikely that a woman would walk away from her child and the family court tends to award custody to the mother, if in doubt.

            I am saying that in order to give a child the best start in life, it is ideal that both parents are onboard in a shared responsibility.

            If a woman chooses to have a child against the wishes of the man, then maybe the full set consequences of that decision belong to her, given abortion is available to her. But even at that, it would be a moral weight on a man to know that his child is out there, fatherless. So in a crisis pregnancy, a very real discussion should be had based on the position of both people – that would be move closer to social progress. As it is, I don’t envy the male in these conversations.

          2. Nigel

            It’s a rather simple principle. The person who has to carry the child and go through with the non-trivial process of giving birth OR who has to take a pill or submit to an operation to terminate the pregnancy calls the shots, and gets to decide for herself how much of a say anyone else of any gender has in her decisions. You can’t legislate for heartbreak, grief or interpersonal difficulties. And this is a good principle because not doing that gave us, amongst other things, the Magdalene Laundries, the non-existence of marital rape and symphysiotomies. Tough conversations for some men whose degree of need or desire for progeny is not compatible with the degree of need and desire for progeny of women they impregnated seem like small potatoes in comparison.

  17. Truth in the News

    It would be far better if the like’s of Quinn, Waters and the rest kept out of this, as there are a silent majority
    out,there, even some who voted against the 8th in 1983, will now vote to retain it, because many of the electorate
    oppose a free for all abortion regime….what we are seeing are two different ideaologyies on a campaign to try
    and assert their dominance of the high ground, …all this should be left to the electorate to make up their
    own minds.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      A “free for all abortion regime”?

      A regime where women and girls have free access to healthcare.

      1. david

        like our health system now
        Yep a free for all for a hospital trolley
        Meanwhile every one waits longer as the wards are full of sisters doing it for themselves

      2. Sentient Won

        Orwellian Doublespeak.

        A disingenuous lie.

        Abortion not healthcare.

        It destroys a human life.

        Broadsheet is not a news site.

        It is a propaganda vehicle for the Abortion Industrial Complex.

        1. Sentient Won

          In Chile there is a group called Feminists for Life that amplifies the sounds of their unborn children’s heartbeat to Pro-Choice activists.

          If Broadsheet wants to be considered a balanced and fair news organisation (rather than a propaganda organ for the abortion industry) it should give this video its own thread.


      3. Truth in the News

        What about the unborn child have they not a right to be born….yes there are cases where the life
        of the mother must be upheld, but there can never a free for all, many…many of the electorate
        will not accept it, the conscience of lot of middle Ireland has be aroused and the irony what did it
        was happened in Tuam and elsewhere.

  18. SOQ

    Posting on BS really is playing the generation game these days, nice to see you.

    Never such white noise before.

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