68 thoughts on “De Thursday Papers

    1. Cian

      No they are not.
      Most people value their own life, and their kin, over a stranger’s life.

      If you could either save 1 loved family member OR 2 random strangers – which would you choose?

      1. Vanessa the Holy Face of Frilly Keane

        That’s not equality you’re introducing Cian
        That’s loyalty and love
        Family ties and inherent obligations

        You can legislate for one, and sue for your rights if you need to

        All you can do is hope for the best with the other, and do your own part

        But you know that Cian
        More bumfluff out’ve ya

        That man and his daughter died because they are not being treated as human beings, with decency and support

        The US consider them a lessor species because they are attempting to enter their country
        They don’t even need to brush their teeth or have need of a blanket to sleep
        Because they are not equal to them

        Being ambitious for another better life for your family is love and every parent’s intention
        It must have passed you by

        Imagine if the EU opted to seperate American kids from their parents when they land here,
        to test them for vaccines, to check they have the means to support themselves while they visit, check they have medical cover,
        Or how about checking their birth records to ensure they weren’t illegal adoptions from a mother and baby home

        What would the Donald have to say about that

        Actually, don’t bother answering

        1. Cian

          I disagree. I’d love if it were true. But it isn’t.
          If you are honest you would agree that there is a hierarchy of ‘value’ . And we value ‘us’ more than ‘them’. Kin before strangers. My county before your county. Ireland before the rest… with ‘known’ countries before unknown.

          It’s the truth and you know it.

          5 killed in Meath? All over the news. 5000 killed in Afghanistan… m’eh.

          1. Vanessa the Holy Face of Frilly Keane

            None of that
            Takes from the point that all lives are equal

            You refer to a hierarchy
            Because you are party to one
            Early risers, Cheaters Cheat Us All, feel free to add btw

            This Dad and his little girl were being denied their own hierarchy
            They decided not to accept their lot in life
            And took their lives in their hands to do something about it
            But the power that sits on the top of the US food chain, the man
            Who, when you think about it dominates so many different hierarchies on so many different tiers
            Decided they aren’t good enough
            They are not equal

            All lives are equal Cian
            I appreciate that’s not something you were groomed or paid to accept
            But that sense of entitlement is only in yere heads

          2. Cian

            That would be lovely if it were true.
            All lives aren’t equal. People feel for that poor girl over the father.

            We would not have” women and children first” of there was equality.

            In general there is more sympathy for the young and for women.

          3. Janet, I ate my avatar

            Cian all lives are equal, nothing makes you more valid or worthwhile in this universe through an accident of birth.
            Humans don’t always percieve that to be true through their ugly lenses of tribalism, hate, fear and xenophobia,
            hope that helps clarify Frillys point

          4. Listrade

            I love having these same ethical debates, it’s like being back in first semester of college thinking I was so deep and erudite.

            Anyway, the problem here is distancing various (and sometimes natural) prejudices or attachments or even comprehension of large numbers [Sagan]Billions and billions[/Sagan].

            Of course I prefer my family to any one of you or a stranger or even a friend. Of course a “local” story hits a bit harder than something miles away. That doesn’t have anything to do with value as V is commenting.

            Believing that all lives have equal value doesn’t mean we *have* to start treating everyone exactly as we would our family. It’d be weird and people would complain about pooping with the door open while having a conversation with them. You can still have your personal and natural preferences for your family and friends, you can still, naturally, get impacted by 5 deaths in Meath. You can still get to a natural human point and fail to comprehend higher numbers and fatalities because it just becomes a blur. 5 is easy, 5000?

            Problem is when we have these ethical debates we have a samples size of one. Us. Me. You. So we tend to insert justifications or arguments based on our own views as a means of justifying why what we feel is ethical.

            All lives are equal. I can’t drop everything and save everyone, but I can do something about my family, I can do something to help my friends, and to some extent, when it’s local, I maybe could have done something there. The impact of potential influence over someone’s life means we have a different attachment to that life, less when it is across the world and I can’t have an influence.

            I can expect/hope that all governments across the world value all life equally and if they don’t then they are held accountable.

            You’ve based some Ethics 101 arguments regarding life, but that’s just throwing a turd into the bath to be contrary if we’re honest. They aren’t real arguments for valuing life and again, most ethical discussions tend to reveal more about the people arguing than a larger population.

            The issues you mention are real, but it’s less to do with value and more to do with a “There but for the Grace of God go I”. We feel stories that in some way “could have been us” than other scenarios we would never be in. Doesn’t mean we value those lives less.

            still, The Good Life is/was decent.

          5. Cian

            @vanessa, I think we’re on different tracks:

            Would I be correct to say that you are saying that all live should be equal value (but you’re not saying if they actually are in the real world).
            Whereas I’m looking at reality and saying that lives are not of equal value (but I’m not saying that ideally they should be)?

          6. martco

            @Cian
            I’m building a garden & I have a nice little Komatsu 6 tonner with the two buckets out back…on a week rate but I’ve the groundwork bit done already so might be happy to lend her to ya if you want?

          7. Vanessa the Holy Face of Frilly Keane

            @Cian

            Your default condition is to generalise
            Generalise as often and as early as you can
            Cheaters cheat us all
            People deliberately make themselves homeless to go up the housing lists

            This family, the crayteurs, were poor
            Poverty does not make anyone less than you
            Or I
            No matter who where or from
            Every one is entitled to Justice, Equality and Human Dignity
            But firstly
            Everyone is entitled to opportunity and well being
            And this family are no different

            Go …. yerself Cian
            There was a time I appreciated your uninterrupted flows of stats and facts
            and your general doggedness
            Now its just insulting

            Go back to bed for a bit
            You’re going to need all your strength and faculties for something later today

  1. Al Bin Man

    Has there ever been a more worthless bum than Boris Johnson running for PM?

    Makes Leo look good

    1. Vanessa the Holy Face of Frilly Keane

      That’s not equality you’re introducing Cian
      That’s loyalty and love
      Family ties and inherent obligations

      You can legislate for one, and sue for your rights if you need to

      All you can do is hope for the best with the other, and do your own part

      But you know that Cian
      More bumfluff out’ve ya

      That man and his daughter died because they are not being treated as human beings, with decency and support

      The US consider them a lessor species because they are attempting to enter their country
      They don’t even need to brush their teeth or have need of a blanket to sleep

      Being ambitious for another better life for your family is love and every parent’s intention
      It must have passed you by

      Imagine if the EU opted to seperate American kids from their parents when they land here,
      to test them for vaccines, to check they have the means to support themselves while they visit, check they have medical cover,
      Or how about checking their birth records to ensure they weren’t illegal adoptions from a mother and baby home

      What would the Donald have to say about that

      Actually, don’t bother answering

      Not worthless
      Feck that lad knows what he’s doing
      Right down to his speaking tours and the advance in his next book

    2. Janet, I ate my avatar

      had the joy of listening to Leo try to justify the homeless situation in the Dail yesterday,
      it was to the tune of,
      no government can predict how many families will split up or can be Held accountable for that figure,
      widdle poor

  2. Catherine costelloe

    It’s a grim picture of father…Oscar Martinez. and his toddler daughter for sure. The family presented themselves at New International Bridge, were directed to Institute of Migration to request an interview to petition for humanitarian aid visa to USA.
    However, they decided to cross the Rio Grande resulting in this tragic event. Needless to say, it’s dangerous to cross any river that you are unfamiliar with , particularly murky water and unknown currents. R.I.P.

  3. f_lawless

    Dreadful framing of the deaths of that father and daughter by the Independent. It’s that repeated establishment tack of trying to muddy the definition of populism. What Trump indulges in is demagoguery not populism. There’s an important distinction. I think what we actually need is for left-wing populist movements – that really are for the needs of the many – to take hold in order to counteract the neoliberal status quo which has taken over western democracies!
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/10/we-the-people-the-battle-to-define-populism

    Also, the “demonising and dehumanising of migrants” in the US has been going on long before Trump so implying otherwise is not helpful – take Bill Clinton’s speech in 1994 “All Americans are rightly disturbed ..by the number of illegal and criminal aliens..taking jobs from citizens..burdening tax payers by using public services..that’s why we’ve moved aggressively to secure our borders (etc) “. But the ‘Prevention through Deterrence’ border security strategy introduced by Clinton in 1994 has done nothing to stem the flow of migrants, instead forcing them to take much more precarious routes which has caused the deaths of 1000s over the years.

      1. Donal

        Obama expelled proven illegal immigrants after due process (more or less)
        Trump is breaching international law and agreements by denying people the opportunity to apply for asylum by saying only 5 can apply today everyone else come back tomorrow. This delay is what is pushing people towards taking more desperate measures
        My heart breaks seeing that photo, RIP

  4. eoin

    Adrian Weckler, the tech guy at INM, tries to frighten the bejaysus outta anyone taking seriously the Eir claim that it can build the National Broadband Plan for €1bn. Adrian has been a consistent chairleader for the Boston private equity group that became the sole bidder for the NBP after inappropriate meetings with the decision-making minister. Adrian was a cheerleader for Granahan McCourt when the cost was reported (in his own paper) at €500m, he’s a cheerleader today when the cost is estimated at up to €3bn.

    The former biggest shareholder at INM owns the company that was switched into the Granahan McCourt consortium at the last minute (or last month in a multi-year procurement process). Coincidence perhaps, but it would have been nice if Adrian had mentioned that fact when promoting the Granahan McCourt bid.

    1. GiggidyGoo

      Listened to Wreckler and some no -entity blueshirt on moosetalk this morning. The interviewer and both of those were lambasting Eir’s plan (even though they don’t know what is it yet). Even the untrained ear could decipher the agenda.
      Wreckler – INM – owner Dinny (Actavo, the McCourt)
      Newstalk – Owned by Dinny (Actavo, the McCourt)
      FG – Owned by Dinny (Actavo, the McCourt)
      Not a word out of any of them about the conflict of interest.
      And the lies they told about Eir, who incidentally have re-entered the fray as McCourt/Actavo re-wrote some terms of the ‘successful tender’ courtesy of FG. (Does the EU know about that?)
      Wreckler then went in to inform the listeners that the Dept of Communications weren’t taking the Eir re-entry seriously – that they were just going through the motions to placate Eir in some format.
      Squeaky buns time for Varadkar and they boys, as yet another Donation To Dinny seems to be slipping away. Foreseen after the IW debacle that another avenue or two would open up for his lordship.

  5. eoin

    New issue of the Phoenix out today.

    https://www.thephoenix.ie/current-issue/?issue=vol37-no13

    Yet more HR issues for the group editor at INM (remember Dearbhail and her 100-page bullying claim? Which no doubt would have been disputed by Fionnan).

    And I’m looking forward to reading the profile of the owner of the SBP. I’m particularly looking forward to the deep dive into reading the true detail of Enda’s grounding “success” in Czechia.

  6. eoin

    Telegraph front page, a smiling William Windsor, son of Charles and grandson of Queen Elizabeth.

    “Duke: It would be fine if my children were gay”

    Would it be fine if one of your uncles were gay?

  7. eoin

    “These are matters now the subject of negotiations with solicitors, and I wish to reserve my position”

    Well done Drew Harris for not being bounced into giving into bandwagon demands to give Majella Moynihan around €500,000 (which would be the value of 20 years of pension, Majella resigned from gardai in 1995, 20 years before retirement).

    The whole Majella Moynihan controversy boils down to a compo claim. Majella has a legal team. I get the impression we’ve been played with the complicity of the mediocrities at RTE which didn’t investigate what Majella was now seeking (“public apology” was what the naive RTE hacks told us).

    IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXd155v8Z5U

      1. eoin

        She was given a sincere apology.

        I no longer think financial compensation is appropriate. I feel like my heartstrings have been played by someone (aided by the naive eejits at RTE) who was, right from the start, seeking financial compensation knowing full well she probably doesn’t have a legal leg to stand on because the events are so old as to be beyond Statute of Limitations.

        Also, if Majella is given a €500,000 pension boost, then how many more 1,000s (and it is 1,000s) will be seeking the same.

        She’s had the apology, that should be it.

        1. postmanpat

          I was saying this from the very start. She always came across as a despicable type of person. Who, if she got a private apology would have demanded a public apology. Got a public apology , moaned about not getting a private apology. etc. It was always about compo. are we supposed to feel sorry for her . a GUARD!! of all people? some of the most arrogant power hungry dictatorship positions there is. A job this woman literally sacrificed her first born to continue to be a part off? I don’t have any sympathy for her and I hope she doesn’t get a penny.

  8. Charger Salmons

    Poor Max Hastings.

    In Monday’s Irish Times he wheeled out his ” Boris is a cad and a bounder and I should know because I was boss ‘ hit job, basically regurgitating his bile from previous attempts at character assassination.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/i-was-boris-johnson-s-boss-he-is-utterly-unfit-to-be-british-prime-minister-1.3936109

    Then along comes HIS former boss to deliver an utter demolition.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/max-hastings-vs-boris-johnson-i-know-who-id-trust-more/

    ” A well-oiled weathervane ”

    Fantastic.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      assume “a well-oiled weathervane” refers here to hastings? (i haven’t looked at either link)

      but only assume it because you wouldn’t reference it otherwise

      it could just as easily (and far more accurately) though be assigned to boris, couldn’t it?!

      after all, he was staunchly pro-remain before realising there was a personal opportunity in being staunchly pro-brexit

      https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-article-backing-britains-future-in-the-eu-a3370296.html

    2. milliem

      The trouble is that Hastings’ ex-boss is Conrad Black and the author of that hatchet job. Black is a convicted fraudster who spent 37 months in an American jail for his troubles.

  9. Clampers Outside!

    Fair play to Martina Navratilova on the BBC programme last night.

    It really is time to stop trans athletes competing against women.

    And no, women do not have a penis.
    And no, intersex is not a third sex, all intersex persons have a base in one of the two sexes.
    And no, there is spectrum of sex.

      1. Clampers Outside!

        He/she’ll get all the love and support he/she needs, but won’t be competing in womens sports as all indicators are he’s male. Simples.

        1. Clampers Outside!

          And he’ll be raised as those indicators suggest, ie male, which are correct 99.5%+ of the time right through out the world population. I’ll not confuse the child will gender bending theories, when the science – and the plain old observable – is known to be more accurate, as per the percent figure above.

        2. SOQ

          I personally think the reason why trans people get such a hard time is that the gender roles are so en-grained in our societies but the plain fact is- a certain amount of people are gay, a certain amount are bisexual and a certain amount are trans.

          Issues amount high level professional athletes will sort themselves out in due course- nobody wants to see unfair advantages been given.

          1. Listrade

            So, I kinda used to be of a similar view with regards to “unfair advantage”… in that sinister I’m just raising questions kind of way. Then I looked into it a bit more and it’s probably more complicated than it seems.

            There is an unfair advantage, but that’s right now. We don’t know whether that unfairness is forever or because of the current status quo. The simplified issue is that the men’s sports has an unfair advantage anyway because it has more money, more coaches, more technology and they usually (with some exceptions) start coaching male sports at a very early age.

            Take soccer or even rugby, for anyone with a decent amount of talent, you’ve probably been playing and training with a club since 4 or 5. You’ll be pegged as having potential early, could then end up even at 6 being in a club academy receiving limited, but high end coaching, nutrition and education. That rarely happens in women’s sports. So even a half decent male is at a significant advantage, not because of biology, but because the current set up favours men’s sports.

            Then there’s the coaching. Not just that as we have more money in men’s sports we get better coaches and better technology, but that the coaching and skills and techniques and tactics are focused on men. You get exceptions when you have someone like Messi, Ronaldo or Maradona where the tactics are give them the ball. But the sports are based upon the skills and strengths of men. That’s what people are taught. They are the coaches in women’s sports too.

            Again sticking with soccer (as we have the World Cup). Are there aspects of the women’s game, strengths or skills that are advantageous over the men’s game? I find it hard to believe there isn’t. Except the coaching and tactics are all based on the men’s game because that’s all people know and are taught. But then there also isn’t the money in the women’s game to attract top talent (like the data analysts that are now common in the game) to identify different strengths and skills and tactics.

            So yeah, right now there is an advantage, and there may always be I don’t know. But we don’t have a level enough playing field at the moment to directly compare or know because the advantage will always be towards men in the current set up. The first woman’s Messi will change everything. The first one that is a natural talent, spotted as a kid, developed, trained (injected with growth hormones) and is unstoppable…that’s when there’ll be a scramble to merge the game. That’s when we’ll start to explore if there’s more to this than what we’ve always believed there was.

            When everything else is equal. When women’s sports has the same emphasis on early talent spotting, equal coaching, equal education, equal technology as the men’s games (with some exceptions), then we can debate as to whether trans athletes have unfair advantages.

            There will be some fields, I’ve no doubt, where that advantage will remain and will be unfair. But let’s have everything equal before then. Can we hand on heart say that in athletics there is the exact same emphasis and support for women athletes as men? Is the US college system totally equal?

          2. Clampers Outside!

            There are quite a number of examples of transwomen who took up their chosen sport competitively, late in the day, post transition and are now winning against women who’ve been in that field of sport for years.

            It’s just wrong.

          3. Clampers Outside!

            Agree on the first bit, but that’s what we are, as humans.
            Gender is more biological than the ‘gender studies’ theorists would like as they ignore biology intently.
            I certainly don’t accept the nonsense that gender is a social construct of colonialism which is one of the most prominent from such fields.
            Biology needs to be included. Then there’s the advances in DNA understanding, and it’s role in everything we do – it, DNA, is going to confine most of those fields of study and their theories to the bin of pseudoscience eventually, a d is already making progress.

            Raising kids with wishy-washy ideas of gender or ‘gender fluidity’ as these fields often suggest we do confuses kids, and that can lead to issues later in life. You don’t jeopardize the 99.5%+ to keep the <0.5% "happy".

            A tolerant accommodation does need to be found, but the way things are being done currently, without regulation or oversight in the UK for example, is completely backward.

            That doc last night started with the science of male advantaged bodies over female.
            Unfortunately, it finished with a "feels" pleading which muddied the science message with emotion.
            The programme was very good, and should have stuck to the science.
            We all have feelings but the world doesn't operate fairly by bending the science, or ignoring it, because of hurt feelings.

          4. Clampers Outside!

            Regarding the ridiculous idea that he seeks a social construct that some how came about through colonialism of the 17th/18th centuries, here’s (Honorary) Prof of Sociology at Aston University, spouting the nonsense of such arguments in a response to a question on how things were with regard to the “sex binary” before the Enlightenment…
            https://twitter.com/elliscashmore/status/1144271508761698310?s=19

            “Late 17th and 18th centuries. Some scholars — most notably Thomas W. Laqueur — argue that binary sex difference is a cultural creation of that period, used to support and legitimize differences — and, by implication, the exploitation of women.”

            These nutters make flat-earthers sound intelligent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        3. millie st murderlark

          Surely it’s not your choice to make, Clampers. He’s as entitled to make his own decisions regarding his own sex, just as you are.

          Fwiw, I found it an excellent documentary, though I missed the end of it. I’m not sure I agreed with all her points, but I thought it was a very enlightening watch

          1. Al Bin Man

            Why does anyone have any time for “debating” this guy? At least three times above in one post I counted him saying a variant of “well I don’t think so and that’s that”. Life’s too short guys
            And it’s 27 degrees, go outside FFS

          2. Clampers Outside!

            I never said I was choosing anything of the sort for him, that would be just ridiculous.

            And let’s be clear here, no one chooses their ‘sex’. No amount of “theory” will ever change that. Persons may “identify” as a gender, at best, but no-one chooses their sex.

            That is, simply identifying as a woman does not make one the female sex (but the lobby groups say otherwise).

            Neither does changing gender.
            There are plenty of transpeople who make this point.

            (for balance, this entire comment applies either direction of change sought whether M to F / F to M).

      2. SOQ

        We can get into all sorts of degrees of what male is and what female is but I asked you that question because it was being asked of people thirty years ago except then- about a gay child.

        Drag your academic gender border line ass off Trans please- do not try and intellectualise your hang ups on a group who MUST still take a cab home from the centre of Dublin- even on a Pride Saturday.

        Comprende?

    1. Charger Salmons

      That’s the paradox of the Americans.
      They can get a man on the moon but not one on Martina Navratilova.
      Baddum tish !

  10. eoin

    Hottest day of the year and you can’t cool off in the sea in Dublin because Irish Water has deliberately flushed pee and poop from their plant into our waterways.Irish Water isn’t some faceless organisation, it has an Executive Board comprising four members. The current members are: Cathal Marley (Chairman and Acting Ervia Group CEO) Eamon Gallen (Irish Water Acting MD) Brendan Murphy (Ervia) Michael O’Sullivan (Ervia)

    You’d squirm looking at the pic on the front page of the Indo, taken in Portmarnock apparently.

    In 2019, it’s not acceptable in Ireland.

  11. eoin

    It’s hard to believe it has taken so long but the day has finally arrived when someone (who’s young, fit and healthy and unlikely to expire before the proceedings are concluded) has sued a former presidential hopeful in the High Court for defamation.

      1. eoin

        I think, for the sake of Bodger’s own blood pressure, he’d prefer for the detail of this to be reported by our brave media first, and even then, I don’t think he’d welcome too many of the predictable comments!

    1. martco

      this. will. never. happen. here.

      “Concrete Built Is Better Built” as Tom Parlon might say

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