It’ll Be Grand

at

Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe

Last night.

Government Buildings. Dublin 2.

Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe announced that tax revenues were down 18.6% – or €983 million – compared to July last year. ..

Meanwhile…

This morning.

Anyone?

Sam Boal/Rollingnews

40 thoughts on “It’ll Be Grand

  1. Rob_G

    One of the wealthiest countries in the EU is being asked to contribute to the budget – well, strike me down with a feather.

        1. GiggidyGoo

          You’re going on GNI then, but not taking into account that the gross national debt in 2020 (Jan) was €215 billion, the State’s national debt is one of the largest in the world and a multiple of what it was before the crash (€43 billion).

          As a simple example:

          person A has assets of € 200,000 and no debt
          person B has assets of € 300,000, but a debt of € 500,000

          Which is the wealthiest?

          1. newsjustin

            If they were companies (and a country is more like a company than a person), person B would have the higher enterprise value. A more valuable entity.

          2. Rob_G

            “the State’s national debt is one of the largest in the world” – not even in the top 20

            Anyway what’s your point – Afghanisthan has the lowest national debt per capita in the world.

          3. Cian

            definitely A.

            All EU countries have debt too:
            Look at these 3 countries showing (approximate values)
            GNI/person;   debt/person;   GNI-Debt
            Germany: €45,750   –   €26,250   =   €19,500
            France:   €46,360   –   €35,250   =   €3,750
            Ireland:   €56,250   –   €44,900   =   €11,350

            who is richest? second richest? third richest?

          4. Brother Barnabas

            an important difference being that france and germany opted to take on debt to invest in infrastructure in their countries (which equates to wealth), whereas we were forced to take on debt to invest in infrastructure in, eh, france and germany

            France and Germany’s debt created wealth in France and Germany, but, so did our debt

          5. GiggidyGoo

            The point Rob is that you pluck out GNI as an indicator, thinking that it represents the wealth of a country based on an average, but don’t accept that, based on an average, we are a country with one of the largest debts. Quid pro quo and all that.

          6. Rob_G

            We are one of the richest countries in the EU by any metric you wish to consider; you are denying objective reality by suggesting that we aren’t.

          7. GiggidyGoo

            @newsjustin. We’re not talking about enterprise values plus we’re talking about a country, not a company. Companies might be run better

          8. GiggidyGoo

            @Cian.
            GNI is not the actual income that persons get. It’s an indicator of an averaged income into the state per capita.
            Ireland is however a haven for the likes of Google, twitter, Paypal, EMC (Dell), Apple, etc.etc. a lot of whose incomes are posted as coming into the state, but leave it just as quick, however with little or no PPP. Germany and France haven’t a similar relationship with those companies that would yield that kind on % to their GNI
            On the other hand, the Debt is actual.

            The median income (2018 figures) was approx € 35,000 per capita. Now, that’s a long way off your figure € 56, 250.

            €35,000 less € 44900 – well that tells the true wealth of the individuals Minus €9,900.

          9. Cian

            @GiggidyGoo
            haha
            I showed your ‘but what about the nation debt’ was a red herring… so now you are jumping back to GNI being the problem? Why not ask Rob?

            Why don’t you do some work: What is the median income in France and Germany? and see how they compare to “poor” Ireland.

          10. GiggidyGoo

            Well, haha yourself Cian. As per usual, you tried to muddy the waters. You boldly wrote
            GNI/person; debt/person; GNI-Debt
            So, it wasn’t me jumping back to GNI, but answering your post.

            You no more showed me anything to discount my post. Ireland is not a rich country when richness is defined by money moving through it (not staying in it) by legalized money laundering.

            Maybe you need to do a bit more googling yourself?

      1. newsjustin

        Per capita, it is, of course true.

        You can’t be in any doubt that Ireland is a very wealthy country surely?

        1. GiggidyGoo

          If we are so wealthy, then why has our national debt continued to increase over the years?

          1. Janet, dreams of big guns

            and why can’t we afford to house our people or provide decent healthcare and transport ?

          2. Cian

            Most of the national debt increases since 2007 was to make up for the lost tax and pay the day-to-day bills – primarily Social Welfare & Health costs.

          3. Rob_G

            Just to take issue with you a little there, Justin: bailing out the banks only represents quite a small portion of the increase in national debt; the vast majority of it went on current expenditure.

            So it would more accurate to say:
            1. political mismanagment
            2. bailing out the banks

          4. GiggidyGoo

            @Cian – Can you put figures on that, and take into account the debt repayments to banks, bondholders, the losses suffered by NAMA sell-offs (Not talking about what NAMA ‘bought’ the loans for, but the actual money that it costed us)

            And then maybe go into the reasons for the ‘lost tax’ and the increases in day-to-day bills. The lost taxes and increases in day-to-day were not the cause of the debt – they were the result of Ireland taking a massive hit and having to pay off banks and bondholders by a spineless government which gave false information to opposition parties, as well as the odd gifting of assets cheaply to those in the know.

          5. Cian

            @GiggidyGoo

            I’m talking about government spending – forget all that banking stuff for a minute.

            The crash happened (credit dried up; banks stopped lending; building work stopped; unemployment rocketed; disposable income crashed…which then hit secondary services). This hit the taxman.

            Comparing 2007 (pre-crash, full employment) to 2011 (crash, high unemployment):
            Total Tax that the government has to spend went from (2007) €47.2bn… (2011) €34.0bn …. a drop of €13 billion!

            There was €13bn less to spend in 2011 than in 2007. So they had to either slash spending (this was very difficult as some things, like social welfare, increased substantially – extra dole) and/or borrow money and put it onto the National Debt.

            The taxes (government income) were made up of:
            VAT: (2007) €14.5bn.. .(2011) €9.7bn
            CGT: €3.1bn… €0.4bn
            Stamp: €3.1… €1.4bn
            Corporation: €6.3bn… €3.5bn
            Excise: €5.8bn… €4.7bn

            Income tax increased slightly by €200m (this was because of much higher tax rates applied to fewer working people)

            Note: that 13billion was just the tax ‘missing’ in one year.

  2. Zaccone

    Ireland received billions and billions of EU funds for 30 years when we were a poor state. Its incredibly hypocritical to get upset over the fact that we’re now a net contributor when we’ve become one of the richest states in Europe, in large part thanks to the EU. When German tax payers were paying for Irish roads it was fine, but when Irish tax payers are paying for Polish roads its not?

    1. Cian

      you could argue that with all the Poles over here working and paying tax that it is *their* taxes paying for Polish roads! :-)

  3. Barry the Hatchet

    Seth, just FYI, all families pay taxes. You might not have heard of indirect taxation. I invite you to google it instead of peddling mistruths.

  4. Jake38

    My father is over 90 and lived here in the 40s and 50s. Ask him if we’re rich and he’ll tell you sharpish just how rich we are compared to those times.

  5. SOQ

    Is it not the case that Ireland’s EU bill increase is due to the tech companies funneling their funds through here?

      1. Otis Blue

        I should add that the attached link, while explaining the difference between the two attributes the 34% increase in 2015 GDP generally to aircraft leasing operations in Ireland. It conveniently – deliberately – ignores the considerable spike in GDP arising from Apple’s greatly increased tax payments to the State as a consequence of the EU state aid investigation launched in 2014.

        While this investigation was ultimately found to be without basis, it is notable that the investigation itself led to Apple paying – and continuing to pay – significant tax in Ireland from that point forward.

  6. Brian

    The €650 cost per annum per working person is a simplistic and disingenuous stat (aside from the fact I think that is not a bad price to pay for EU membership). Also what would the cost be of not being a member of the EU? The implication that I would be €650 better off if Ireland left the EU is false. The UK is about to find this out the hard way.

    Is the €650 a net or gross figure? Does it take account of direct EU funding sent back to Ireland (i.e. in payments to farmers and part-funding of infrastructure and other projects)? Does it take account of indirect financial benefits of being part of the single market – lower prices for goods that might otherwise be subject to tariffs? It also can’t take account of other benefits of the EU – the ability to work and travel freely in other EU states. There could be a time and money cost if I had to get a visa and queue in line every time I went on holiday to an EU member. The EU negotiates complex trade deals with other blocs and countries which benefit EU citizens – this would not be possible on our own.

    1. Cian

      Since the EU forced the phone companies to not rip us off on roaming costs (calls and data) I’ve probably saved €650[1] each year alone!

      [1]Technically I haven’t saved that much… but I will pretend it is this much for humorous purposes.

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