‘An Epidemic of Fear And Blame’

at

Today’s irish Daily Mail

This morning.

Via Extra.ie:

Analysing the result of the poll of 1,002 people, Dr Kevin Cunningham, of Ireland Thinks, said there was an interesting gap between the majority of people who think vaccines should be mandatory and the even more support seen in recent months for more restrictions on people who are unvaccinated.

In October, an Ireland Thinks poll found 76% of those surveyed want unvaccinated people to be subjected to continuing restrictions – with just 18% saying the unvaccinated should not face continuing restrictions.

Majority of Irish public support mandatory COVID vaccinations (Extra.ie)

Meanwhile…

Ireland has the highest adult vaccination rate globally, which should bring us pride.

Unfortunately, Ireland has the worst access to healthcare in Europe and completely insufficient capacity at all levels in the system, especially in our ICUs. Addressing this capacity deficit should be our core policy focus.

Aside from the Covid-19 virus, there is also an epidemic of fear and blame, which can lead to intolerance.

I refer especially to the increasing rhetoric around “compulsory vaccination” and views  stating that those who are unvaccinated should “not be entitled to the pandemic employment payment”.

Unvaccinated are already stigmatised and punished, unable to travel, eat out, meet friends in a pub, or attend cultural events. There is also no high-quality evidence that punishing unvaccinated further, in the context of Ireland having a high vaccine uptake, will improve vaccination rates.

As a GP, we do not blame those who have “lifestyle choices” which we might disagree with – those who smoke, drink, use drugs, or commit crimes.

In fact, these patient groups are often the most vulnerable in society and distrustful of the State.

Fear and blame do not mix well with politics – we have seen how their weaponisation contributed to Brexit and Trump.

As Covid-19 becomes endemic in our future society – hopefully a normal circulating respiratory virus – we need tolerance and respect for different viewpoints, and we should counter blameful policies which lack evidence.

Dr Mark Murphy, Dublin 8.

Irish Times Letters

Meanwhile…

Yesterday.

Meanwhile…

Ah here.

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71 thoughts on “‘An Epidemic of Fear And Blame’”

      1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

        My heart is actually on the opposite side to the rest of my internal organs ( levocardia situs invertus ) this is known to cause heart problems as it is, the stupid thing stopped beating on me for a bit last time I was really sick. Being honest now even without the breastfeeding I don’t fancy my chances with the vaccine.

  2. NotSpencerTunick

    “Ireland has the highest adult vaccination rate globally, which should bring us pride.”

    It depends on who the “US” is. No doubt brings immense pride to the farma industry,.

    1. Micko

      Ireland has 76% of it’s population fully vaccinated

      Austria and Germany both have 69% fully vaccinated.

      We are not so far ahead, that the policies and madness that are plaguing them at the moment cannot come here.

      1. NotSpencerTunick

        And watch as thety come for the 34% that hold out because the truth is that these are the ones that pose the threat to the PLAN. These powerful elites are DRUNK AND HIGH on how successful they have been so far, they did not dare dream they could dupe so many into submission so easily. SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL. Now is when they bring out the BIG GUNS. I predict another 15 or 20% will fold when the pressure is applied. Lock them out of society and shame them. This is happening now. If you think it is dirty now, just wait.

      2. SOQ

        I can’t find reference to this anywhere else Micko but if true, the teachers should be sacked on the spot.

        ‘The ritual humiliation of children [in Germany] who are asked to go to the front of the class and state their vaccination status daily, those who are vaccinated are applauded.’

        Journalist Alex Story reports on coronavirus restrictions in EU countries.

        https://twitter.com/perfecttennisuk/status/1469398058907676673

          1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

            I was made state my religion every day for five years Infront of a library full of kids thrown out of class, so you know the nice kids, I was there because I wasn’t allowed in religion classes.
            The old baggage of a nun wanted those girls to take note of me and make my life hell, she wanted to embarrass me and shame me. It’s disgraceful behavior and for the first few years I was terrified, but you know what those other kids, ” bad ” girls as they were could see her for the old cow she was and wouldn’t play ball.

          2. Micko

            What were they expecting? That you’d fall to your knees and embrace God through pressure.

            Actually, that’s probably EXACTLY what they were expecting ;)

            Bloody nuns.

          3. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

            they used to pass me these funny wee cards with prayers to saints on them, false idols don’t ya know,
            it’s ok, I used to attach the odd Penis to the many statues and add a little orange juice to the holy water ( I’m so much more mature now ).

      3. Cian

        Portugal 89%, Spain 81% and Denmark 77% are all higher than Ireland (76%) at % of population vaccinated (2 doses).

    2. Big ape

      COVID mickey comparing is not about pride
      Pride has nothing to do with it or even smugness
      We are an island nation and unlike mainland Europe could close our borders phycally but our government chooses not to do this and at the same time mess with our constitutional rights
      We are not even been told the science regarding this new mutation
      Personally I would close the borders deal with our existing cases then open up our society and have normality

      If by any chance people had to come here quarantine them
      I would do a New Zealand while vaccinating as we have done
      At least our people could maintain a normal life and whole segments of our economy would not be destroyed sacrificed to ensure our delinquent health service plods on regardless
      Let’s face it excuse after excuse for failure after failure and look at the ICU beds they were supposed to of provided
      Not a sign until March next year

  3. freewheeling

    Sure aren’t all those unvaccinated the reason everyone has to keep taking more vaccine? Now if only they make everyone get one … it would all just stop then, wouldn’t it?

  5. eamonn

    Can a person be unvaccinated, somehow not have been infected thus far – therefore no burden on any health services or any other organ of the state. maybe they are just lucky, maybe their day is yet to come. Maybe they are the sort who chooses to live in hope rather than fear?

    where does this person fit into the plague of the unvaccinated ?

    Happy Monday people,
    A new week – same story.

    1. Mr.T

      No you idiot. Don’t you get it?
      MY vaccine only works if you get YOUR vaccine.

      Stop putting me at risk by not getting vaccinated

  6. gorgi

    when the truth of this covid and vacines ,finally comes out, the irish nation will have a collective mental breakdown.

  7. H

    Bodger and Micko, will you ever have any doubts about vaccines not working
    Is there an argument you’d listen to?

    1. Micko

      Not getting what you’re saying there H

      I think vaccines are amazing. But (I think) they should only be given to those who need them, particularly when it’s based on a new tech, which has some pretty serious (but rare) side effects. Risk vs reward

      And especially since only 70 of the 5788 deaths in Ireland that are attributed to Covid over the last two years are in the under 45’s. Statistically not at risk – it’s about 1%.

      If the data changed, I’d change my opinion.

      And I certainly don’t think we should be dividing society based on vaccination status.

      https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/weeklyreportoncovid-19deathsreportedinireland/COVID-19_Weekly_Death_Report_Website_v1.5%2008122021.pdf

      1. H

        but would you now agree that the stats of unvaccinated in ICU make compelling reading?
        long term affects can be awful
        and how many deaths is acceptable, all those 5788 had someone who cared

        1. Gavin

          When you say compelling what do you mean, the number of vaccinated admitted or the numbers of unvaccinated dying

          36% (n=196) of ICU cases were fully vaccinated; 75% (n=147) were ≥60 years of age
          57% (n=313) of ICU cases were unvaccinated; 68% (n=214) were <60 years of age

          561 deaths due to COVID-19 in laboratory-confirmed cases were notified to HPSC
          65% (n=367) of deaths were in fully vaccinated cases; 85% (n=311) were ≥70 years of age

        2. SOQ

          We know that in the main, people who are in ICU have comorbities and/or are already in bad health. It is therefore highly likely that such people would have been offered the vaccines if they had to have been medically suitable.

          My point is that the vaccinated/unvaccinated ICU figures may not be the full story.

        3. Micko

          @H

          “but would you now agree that the stats of unvaccinated in ICU make compelling reading?”

          I haven’t seen any of the stats broken down by age, co-morbidities etc.Just news paper articles. But if the data was compelling then perhaps.

          “long term affects can be awful”

          Seems to be on par with post viral fatigue tbh, and the vast majority make a full recovery. Info here from NHS https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-long-covid/

          “and how many deaths is acceptable”

          This year alone:
          7,215,577 Children under 5 have died
          7,746,598 people have died from cancer
          1,281,471 have died from road traffic accidents
          1,017,993 suicides
          4.2 Million from Air pollution

          People die from lost of things.

      2. Gavin

        I think thats the problem…its not a simple black and white pro or against, yet the media and government keep trying to reduce it to simple arguments.

        COVID is fake
        COVID is fake its a power grab
        COVID is not fake its a power grab
        COVID is not fake, vaccines dont work
        COVID is not fake, vaccines do work, but should only be for certain age groups
        COVID is not fake, vaccines do work won’t get a booster
        COVID is not fake, vaccines and boosters are great COVID passes are a big no
        etc… etc…etc… etc

          1. Gavin

            Im just saying its not a simple pro or against, its a complex issue with many viewpoints, yet constantly it’s reduced to pro or anti, with insults getting hurled from both sides, what exactly is confusing you?

    2. John Smith

      @ H
      ‘will you ever have any doubts about vaccines not working
      Is there an argument you’d listen to?’

      The vaccines appear to reduce the severity of illness that people can suffer if they develop Covid-19 but they do not guarantee that those vaccinated will not end up in hospital or in ICU or that they will not die of the illness. The vaccines do not stop transmission of the virus. They may be contributing to the mutation of the virus. They do seem to have adverse affects on the health of some of the people who are given them and these effects can be greater than the dangers presented by Covid-19, especially for the young/middle-aged and fit. Their effectiveness wanes quickly and boosters are needed and these may not be effective against new variants. These are the effects that we have seen so far – longer term results are yet to be seen. If you consider that this is evidence that the vaccines ‘work’, then maybe that is why Bodger, Micko and others, such as myself, are not likely to be convinced by the arguments that you appear to find convincing.

      I have only dealt with the medical issues, of course. The effects of the pressure exerted on people who do not wish to or who cannot receive the vaccine and the distortions produced in society in general by the hysteria resulting from the fear peddled by those instigating the pressure are an even bigger issue – one that will have repercussions for an untold length of time ahead.

      1. H

        no one said the vaccines were 100%
        but the odds are youre better off with
        and you can argue online forever but it just wont end the pandemic any quicker

        1. John Smith

          ‘but the odds are you are better off with’

          I would say that’s a matter of opinion as we have no way to compare – these are still not fully tested medications and we can’t know whether people are still to be adversely affected, especially by continued boosters. People should not be pressurised to take the vaccine and should certainly not be demonised if they don’t.

          ‘you can argue online forever but it just wont end the pandemic any quicker’

          Absolutely agree that Covid-19 won’t end more quickly because of arguments – seems a strange suggestion that anyone would think it would. The virus is not affected by arguments and is apparently not much affected by the vaccine either, except that it mutates appropriately. (The vaccine’s main effect is on the severity of the illness not on the virus itself.) The occurence of the illness the virus causes will no doubt wane, in due course, perhaps to be overtaken by a new one.

          1. scottser

            it stands to reason that if you get the jab and you don’t develop symptoms that are as severe for as long then you are by definition less infectious than someone who hasn’t had it.
            i would of course like to hear from someone who is unvaccinated who has contracted mild covid symptoms.

          2. SOQ

            No- viral load is what determines infectiousness and it is wildly accepted that vaccinated can have just as high viral load as non. And that is why antigen tests are actually more arcuate at determining who is infectious or not.

          3. Cian

            @SOQ
            No. How infectious someone is is made up of three components.
            (1) “likelihood of being infected” x (2) “number of days infected” x (3) “viral load”

            While you are correct that (3) “viral load” is about the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated. You (once again) ignore:
            (1) “likelihood of getting infected! is lower in the vaccinated ,and
            (2) “number of days infected” is lower in the vaccinated.

            The overall livelihood of a vaccinated person infecting other people is lower than unvaccinated.

          4. John Smith

            ‘it stands to reason that if you get the jab and you don’t develop symptoms that are as severe for as long then you are by definition less infectious than someone who hasn’t had it.’

            I’m not at all convinced that that stands to reason though I’d need to look at the views of a range of virologists to see what is likely to be the case. Severity of symptoms would seem to be, at least partly, the result of how the individual’s body reacts, not necessarily the level of viral load.

            However, (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2021/12/vaccinated-who-get-breakthrough-infections-less-contagious/) Kissler found that vaccinated and unvaccinated were likely to be equally infectious in the early period (which would include the pre-symptom stage) but the virus cleared sooner (by an average of two days) in the vaccinated. Both would be clear of the active virus by the end of the isolation period but both would be infectious before the symptoms developed. So long as the individual is aware that they have the virus and that they self-isolate, there would seem to be little difference in the likelihood of spread.

            However, someone whose symptoms are less severe may not even be aware that they have the virus and so they will be less likely to self-isolate. It does seem to stand to reason that, because the severity of their symptoms should be reduced by the vaccine vaccinated people are much more likely than unvaccinated people to be unaware of having the virus and to be out and about and spreading the virus.

          5. SOQ

            @ Cian

            Likelihood of being infected is nonsense. You have to be infected before you become infectious. The chances of you being infected are irrelevant because it has already happened.

            Once you are infected, it is very much down to viral load where the more of it there is in your body, the more you will shed. The majority of people are asymptomatic of course and never develop CoVid-19.

            Wither being vaccinated shortens that infectious window by a day or two, is pretty academic.

        2. SOQ

          Given that you can be still be just as infectious, the choice to take these vaccines is a private medical decision- the very same as the flu shot, which has similar outcomes.

        1. Clampers Outside

          I had tried that but I included “WHO report of Omicron deaths” and got nothing.

          Thanks, did you search… Looks dodge already…

          “Newsnpr” says ‘from’

          “BBC” says ‘with’

          2. SOQ

            “at least one patient has been confirmed to have died WITH Omicron”.- Johnson.

            Given that it is widespread, it was only a matter of time before people who are already dying caught it. Convenient scare tactic to boost the boosters as it were.

            It’s getting very predictable now.

          3. Clampers Outside

            +1

            If Omicron is a light disease but highly virulent we’ll end up with loads dieing ‘with’ being claimed as dieing ‘from’… Just as NPR is doing.

  9. Kim Cardassian

    Regardless of what people think, mandatory vaccination will never happen in ireland as we don’t have a national identity scheme. I don’t think people will be eager to introduce a national identity scheme after the PSC debacle either.

    Just ban access to high risk activities to those who are anti-science unless they have a covid pass.

    Once the pandemic is over we will go back to normal again. They can have their cake then and claim a victory while continuing to ignore science. :)

    *Awaits the replies posting spurious claims about science with links to poor journals and articles taken out of context*

      1. SOQ

        Trust the science?

        Coercion is not science.
        Withholding data is not science.
        Manipulating data is not science.
        Cherry-picking studies is not science.
        Social conditioning is not science.
        Fear-mongering is not science.
        Pharma propaganda is not science.

        Alec Zeck.

    4. freewheeling

      The PSC Debacle? Would that be the one where they starting using the cards for things they weren’t entitled to use them for? Kinda like how the Covid pass was specifically for inter-EU travel and not to be used domestically? That kind of “it’d never happen” debacle you mean?

    5. Mr.T

      The pandemic will not end whilst we are still continuing our frivolous vaccination campaign.

      Mass-vaccinations (vaccinating everyone, not just those at risk) puts evolutionary pressure for vaccine-resistant variants to emerge. Couple that with a leaky/non-sterilizing vaccination and you have guaranteed that vaccine-escape mutations will occur in the near future.

      Either make better vaccines that actually stop transmission, or treat these vaccines like you do antibiotics and only prescribe when at risk. Antibiotic resistance is a nice allegory for how the covid19 vaccination program is going.

    2. scottser

      actually, this confuses me. if you have ever had occasion to partake of the daily mail comments section you will find they are very vaccine sceptic. i would imagine this headline ‘poll’ might have more to do with covering boris johnson’s fundament in time of political need than any real reflection of ‘the nation’s view’.

  12. wearnicehats

    I haven’t bothered to read this thread but, as it exceeds 50 replies I’m guessing the gist of it is:

    Bodger posts yet another COVID related article – possibly spurious

    Person with entrenched pro-vaccine view posts entrenched pro-vaccine post

    Person with entrenched anti-vaccine view disagrees, posts entrenched anti-vaccine post

    Person who doesn’t understand statistics posts some wildly inaccurate and misleading statistic

    Person with entrenched pro-vaccine view posts entrenched pro-vaccine post

    Person with entrenched anti-vaccine view disagrees, posts entrenched anti-vaccine post

    etc

    2. Papi

      And the next, and the next, and the next, same players, same answers. It’s like Groundhog day without the humour.

      1. wearnicehats

        ah yes, the classic Englishman on holiday in Spain analogy

        When faced with a person whose language you do not speak and who does not speak yours, speak in English anyway. When the Spanish person has stopped listening to you, then SHOUT at them in English. That’ll work

        1. scottser

          alf garnett’s advice was great: stick an ‘o’ after everything and gradually speak louder.
          do-o You-o SPEAK-o ENGLISH!!

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