[Neil Francis, top and Nigel Owens, above]

Neil Francis appeared on Today FM’s The Last Word with Matt Cooper this evening to explain his comments regarding gay people and sports. They were joined by Nigel Owens, the first openly gay international rugby referee.

Matt Cooper:“I’ve know Neil Francis for over 20 years. I’ve worked with him at the Sunday Tribune, when I was the editor there. He was rugby columnist from 1996 onwards, and when I came here in 2003 to present the Last Word he’d already been contributing as a rugby analyst and he’s continued to do so over the last 11 years, as one of our main rugby analysts.
Yesterday, Neil was on another radio station, he was on Newstalk. As part of a panel discussion he was discussing an article, an excellent article that Joe Brolly wrote for yesterday’s Mail on Sunday about homosexuality and sport. He made a number of comments which you have have seen in various reports today, you may have seen on various websites, which were in my view highly offensive and downright stupid.
Some of the comments are like this, about people who are gay and play sport, ‘What are their interests? Have you ever sat down with homosexual people and asked them what their interests are? Very often they have no interest in any kind of sport. That’s my experience from sitting down with them. I’ve done it on a regular basis.’ Here’s another one, ‘You do a survey of the hairdressing industry and find out how many heterosexuals work in that. There are a wide range of people who are homosexual, the environment that they’re in isn’t something they are interested in. Do you know what I’m saying?’ and another one ‘it’s all based …. it’s not a generalisation. In every sphere of life, every year that you meet a gay man or gay people in a social environment, they’ve very little interest in sport. I don’t have an interest in ballet.’
He was also asked about Michael Sam, a gay American Footballer, a college student who’s about to be drafted, who recently came out. He said, ‘I noticed him because he was very flamboyant, a bit of a showman.’ He equated Sam’s ‘coming out’ with ‘Jimi Hendrix talking about Janis Joplin’s death as a great career move.’
Before I talk to Neil Francis, I want to play a bit of audio for you. This is a man called Dale Hansen from News 8 in Texas, who made a comment, made a little speech on television the other day about Michael Sam, and his potential in the draft. [Watch here]

Cooper: “That was Dale Hansen, of News 8, talking in Texas about Michael Sam. Neil Francis good evening to you.”

Francis: “Hi Matt.”

Cooper: “Neil, you’ve taken a lot of criticism over the last 24 hours. You’ve had a lot of time to reflect on what you said. What is your position now?”

Francis: “Well, I, when I got home I had a listen to the interview again, and I must say it was, it didn’t sound at all like me in a sense. A lot of people who listened to it sort of said ‘that’s not your form, and I realised I was in a kind of, a field of landmines, and I stood on one or two. And, some of the points I was trying to make were, I suppose, very clumsily made, and my language and the analogies I was trying to make were quite poor, and quite poorly expressed, and it’s just unusua for me not to be able to articulate myself but on this instance I was unable to do so.
So, listening to what I said last night, OK on reflection, I probably said some of the wrong things, and the things were extremely clumsy, and in this instance, on reflection, I would like to withdraw those comments and apologise profusely and unreservedly for any issues that might have offended anyone who might have heard them or who felt offence from what I said.”

Cooper: “Nigel Owens, good evening to you.”

Nigel Owens: “Good evening.”

Cooper: “You’ve heard about what Neil Francis said, I’m aware, you heard him there apologise, is that god enough for you?”

Owens: “Yes, it’s good that he’s been able to go back and reflect on what he said. We all make mistakes in our lives. I’ve made mistakes, I’ve made mistakes on the field, and apologies are fine as long as those apologies are genuine and from the heart, and I certainly hope that Neil’s apologies are genuine and are from the heart and not something that he’s been pressurised into with all the outpouring that has come from all walks of life. Irish player, Welsh players, people all over twitter and stuff the last 24 hours, Facebook, you know have been condemning his words. If his apologies are genuine then it is good to hear him apologise. I don’t know Neil personally, I’ve never met him, I know of him. I can’t say what the man is like because I don’t know. If they are genuine then it’s good to hear that

[talk over each other].

Cooper: “Nigel, Neil’s just after saying that he did meet you but you obviously didn’t make enough of an impression when you met him.”

Owens: “Well, I’ll remember you next time, that’s for sure!”

Cooper: “Can I ask you Neil: this is a genuine apology that you’re giving?”

Francis: “It is. I mean people know who I am, I say what I mean. I wouldn’t say this unless I meant it.”

Cooper: “Back to you Nigel. You wanted to come in again there.”

Owens: “No, this is what I think, you know. I’ve had people in this situation before saying things and they didn’t mean it that way, and that’s where we have, especially someone with Neil’s stature, and the responsibility that he has, about wearing that green jersey 15- 20 years ago,the responsibility he has and the influence also you must remember.
I think we just have to sometimes think long and hard before we say things because when we give things out there… everyone has his opinion and is entitled to his own opinion, and that should always be respected, but when that opinion is given out there and it’s the wrong opinion, you know I’ve sat down with people from sport who are gay, who are not out and who are out and I don’t know who Neil has sat down and spoken to but certainly they’re not the people I have sat down and spoken to, and I know a lot of gay people in rugby from the professional end to the community end of the game, and I know many more who haven’t had the courage yet, for whatever reason, to come out or don’t want to come out and that has to be respected aswell. It is their choice.
I think this is a message for everybody out there to think sometimes, sometimes after we’ve said it we realise what we said and the context it’s been taken in. It is a message learned for people here. Make sure you think thoroughly about what you’re saying and get your facts right asel you know.”

Cooper: “Neil, one of the reaons why i was so shocked and offended by what you said yesterday when I read the transcripts and when I listened back today was, I remember our time in the Sunday Tribune, that you assisted a rugby player who actually decided to come out, by writing his story in the Sunday Tribune with him at the time.”

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