Co-creator of Arthur’s Day Tanya Clarke, from Diageo, above, and Dr Bobby Smyth, from Alcohol Action Ireland appeared on Today with Seán O’Rourke this morning.
Their discussion started off with O’Rourke asking Clarke why, after the first Arthur’s Day in 2009 – held to mark the 250th anniversary of Arthur Guinness’ signing of the 9,000-year lease on the St James’s Gate brewery in Dublin in 1759 – did Diageo decide to continue the event.
Seán O’Rourke: “Why didn’t you just leave it at that? 2009? Wasn’t that the original plan?”
Tanya Clarke: “Well very simply, I was also at the review meeting after the first Arthur’s Day and 92% of consumers wanted Arthur’s Day to happen the following year. And equally our customers, our pubs absolutely wanted us to run the event [in] the year ahead.”
O’Rourke: “No surprise I suppose because it allowed you to sell more Guinness and more beers.”
Clarke: “Well, you know, it was a difficult time for pubs. Hundreds of pubs going out of business every year and what it did do is remind Irish people of the fantastic part the pub plays in Irish society. People getting together, over a pint, drinking responsibly is, has been a good thing in Ireland. And I think Arthur’s Day reminded them of that.”
O’Rourke: “‘Drinking responsibly’ being the key phrase, I suppose.”
Clarke: “Absolutely.”
O’Rourke: “Would you not accept that it’s particularly unfortunate for instance that it’s held on a Thursday, coinciding with the end of Fresher’s Week in third-level institutions around the country.”
Clarke: “I mean the reason we had it on Thursday, and continued to have it on Thursday really was, you know, Friday and Saturday would have been a kind of steady flow of business for the trade. But actually, Thursday, at that time, had become quieter so we felt that it was a good day to have Arthur’s Day. We’d no idea that that many people would take part. We’re very happy though that you know, that we’ve 500 pubs running activities…”
O’Rourke: “Does it bother you that it coincides with the end of Fresher’s Week. You could move it. I mean, OK, you had a particular date in mind when it started off but maybe it might be better to move it to a time when you wouldn’t have such pressure on the new students at third-level.”
Clarke: “Yeah, that really wasn’t part of the consideration.”
O’Rourke: “Shouldn’t it be now?”
Clarke: ” We review all of these things each year. Actually the date for Arthur’s Day was put in Tourism Ireland calendars way before we decided the date this year.”
O’Rourke: “Right, so Bobby Scott, sorry Bobby Smyth, I beg your pardon, do you accept that the motive behind this is generally one to promote Irish culture, promote artistic endeavour?”
Dr Bobby Smyth: “No. The purpose behind this day is to promote Guinness and Diageo’s other products. It’s a marketing strategy that, for reasons I suppose best known to ourselves, we’ve chosen to embrace but that, to me, seems a little bit perplexing and I suppose inappropriate in view of the range of alcohol-related problems that we have in Ireland. I mean alcohol isn’t all bad. It’s not the root of all evil but it is at the heart of many of our society’s most significant problems.”
O’Rourke: “You work as a child and adolescent psychiatrist, you’re a member of Alcohol Action Ireland, what are the results of people mishandling alcohol that you have to pick up and deal with.”
Smyth: “The results are varied. Alcohol is a major contributor to suicide, to homicide. Alcohol is a contributor to sexual assaults and violence against women. Alcohol is a contributor to child abuse and neglect. Alcohol is a contributor to..so there’s a whole range of medical problems. There’s over 1,000 people in Ireland die every year, as a result of alcohol use. So, against that backdrop, it seems odd that our culture now has chosen to include this new day into our calendar.”
O’Rourke: “But surely the problem, the problems that you’re dealing with arise with people abusing alcohol, as a result of their own free will, not necessarily as a result of the promotion that’s done because if you start working back from that, say the promotions, like Arthur’s Day, if they’re responsible for the dreadful tragedies that you in certain instances deal with that surely there would be no advertising or marketing at all.”
Smyth: “Well that is our position. There should be no advertising, marketing or sponsorship. As a father, I resent the fact that my 17-year-old and 9-year-old sons grow up bombarded by positive images linking alcohol to sporting and social success, linking alcohol now to music and fun and all social events. And that problem is perpetuated by this Arthur’s Day. I really, as the Huffington Post called it, Diageo Day because it’s about promoting alcohol, it’s not about promoting music.”
O’Rourke: “Is it really Diageo Day?”
Clarke: “Absolutely not. I mean Guinness is a special brand in Ireland. If people come out on Thursday and choose to drink beer and alcohol, we would love them to choose Guinness. You know it’s a globally recognised brand and a day where people remember the pub and also the great talent in Ireland. You know, over 50% of the music acts are Irish this year and yes, you know, Guinness will be one of the beers people choose and we are happy about that on Thursday.”
O’Rourke: “Do you see it as a harmless thing that promotes music, that promotes enjoyment, that reminds people about the importance of the pub in Irish social life and there’s really nothing wrong with it?”
Clarke: “Well more than nothing wrong with it, we’re proud of it. You know, we are proud that it’s a day where we kick off the global celebration. Arthur’s Day runs in 47 markets and one thing, since the 250th, Irish people have been very proud that the celebrations have kicked off in Ireland. You know but things have moved on in the last five years. So this year we wanted to really leverage the awareness Arthur’s Day has to showcase Irish talent and creativity amongst adults and that’s what we’re doing. Five hundred events across the country with amazing Irish acts like Kodaline, etc, are playing.”
O’Rourke: “And that may all be very laudable but what about the fact that for instance last year in Dublin, it was reported that there was a 30% increase in call-outs for ambulances on Arthur’s Day. 30%?”
Clarke: “No-one wants, you know, I don’t want our products to be misused on Arthur’s Day or any other day, that’s a fact. And running any big event like this, a series of gigs, we make sure we work with local authorities to minimise any disruption. You know, we could have run this event from the start in a field but instead we run it in licensed premises, with pubs all around the country and we work hard to ensure where it goes off very smoothly and people enjoy it. 86% of people wanted Arthur’s Day to happen again this year.”
O’Rourke: “Can you argue against that, it’s such a popular event?”
Smyth: “It certainly is popular but, I don’t know, I suppose I do wonder how the rest of the world looking in at us wonders about it or thinks about it. You know, Tanya sort of says it’s not in their interest to have people abusing their products and I’ve heard countless spin doctors and PR people and marketing people from drinks companies say the exact same thing. That’s clearly all true. They make much more money from someone who drinks 40 pints a week than they do from someone who drinks four pints a week. In fact they make ten times as much money. And, again, from the outside looking in, you know when Tanya went back to the headquarters of Diageo in London, to report on the success of Arthur’s Day. I think how they must have laughed at the Paddies again. You know, just give them subsidised drink, give them some free songs and music and get them dancing to your tune.”
Clarke: “I mean that’s just not a reality, I mean the first thing to say is. The home of Guinness is Ireland, that’s where we have our brewery, that’s where we have our global brand team. And it might help actually, for people listening, to break down the activity myself and the team have been working on the last few months in preparation for Arthur’s Day. So we work with the pubs to ensure they put on a great event, we might be helping them with you know food offering, etc. We showcase Irish talent and creativity through the Arthur Guinness projects which we launched this year. We also help organise music, both in terms of high-profile talent but also help pubs. And we work with local authorities to ensure it’s a day where people drink responsibly…”
Talk over each other
O’Rourke: “If you could stop there, but do you accept any responsibility for a situation which led, for instance, an emergency consultant in Cork University Hospital last year, Stephen Cusack to say ‘it’s ridiculous to incite more people to drink when Irish people are drinking, are already drinking more than enough’. He said it’s the last thing the country needs, Arthur’s Day. He described the streets of Cork as being like The Last Days of Sodom and Gomorrah and Jerry Buttimer, the local TD, one of them down there, chair of the Oireachtas Health Committee said that there’s a major issue about this: it’s cynical marketing.”
Clarke: “I mean Bobby talked about being a parent. I’m Irish, I’m a parent, I’m proud of what I do, I’m proud of Arthur’s Day and I do not want anyone misusing alcohol and therefore we work very hard with the local authorities, with the Gardaí, to ensure that people do drink responsibly and we invest, all year round, in responsible drinking.”
O’Rourke: “Well, let me read you some of the calls. ‘Seán, (this is from Shane in Tallaght), how much extra pressure will the Gardaí and A&E departments experience as a result of this day. Another caller, Barry: ‘Arthur’s Day has a negative impact on Ireland’. Another caller: ‘Tony in Howth: Arthur’s Day is nothing but a money-making racket to double Diageo profits, nothing to do with Irish culture. It should be abolished’. ‘Who are they kidding, asks Mary in Cork, it’s all about selling alcohol full stop’.”
Clarke: “As I’ve said, if people choose to drink alcohol on Thursday, we do hope they drink Guinness, that is my job. It is not about getting people to misuse alcohol. We do not want it.”
O’Rourke: ” You use the proper language about working with the various interest groups, you didn’t use the words stakeholders but that’s the implication with the emergency services, with the Gardaí and so forth. But that is your attitude, if we have another event, you know, like it was described there by Dr Cusack in Cork, where there is that kind of behaviour, where there is extra pressure placed on A&E, do you accept any responsibility for that at all?”
Clarke: “I think we all have a responsibility to ensure that..”
O’Rourke: “No, we all don’t actually. We are all not putting on Arthur’s Day. You are?”
Clarke: “Well what are we doing? I told you about the activities we’re doing, we’re working with pubs, we’re putting talent on, we’re asking people to come out and drink responsibly, that’s the clear message from us.”
O’Rourke: “Yes, but if the same disgraceful scenes occur, do you accept responsibility for any of that?”
Clarke: “It’s something we, you know, we take every single measure. I have been in to meet the Gardaí myself to ensure that it is a day which everyone enjoys and drinks responsibly. No-one wants misuse, I do not want misuse of alcohol.”
O’Rourke: “We can’t bodysuit them, we can’t have prohibition either? I mean, people have to accept responsibility as well for their own actions.”
Smyth: “Absolutely. I mean I drink myself and I plan to continue drinking and most adults in Ireland do drink. And of course we have to accept responsibility for our own decisions. But I suppose people talk about this as though it’s a dichotomy – that the option is a public health approach to alcohol, where a government steps in and stops us drinking or else, for personal responsibility. The truth is, in Ireland what we have is an alcohol policy which is based on individual rights. The individual has the right to drink as much as they want. But they don’t have to take personal responsibility for it. If they end up in an emergency department with a broken leg and knee treatment, they’ll get that for free. If they end up having hassle and get picked up by a guard, that will cause our criminal justice system thousands and they may end up having to pay a fine of €100. The truth is alcohol costs our society. Drinkers as a whole, myself included, we cost our society close to €4billion per annum. But we only generate about €2billion in tax. So we’re not taking responsibility for our own drinking.”
O’Rourke: “As a medical person, what would your attitude be to an idea which was popular about five or six years ago I think. Fine Gael, who were then in opposition in Government, were arguing of being in favour of a drink tax in A&E. In other words, that people are segregated. If they’re there because of excess alcohol abuse or alcohol abuse, with or without excess, they should be treated in the same way as other people.”
Smyth: “Unfortunately that gets very hard to disentangle because someone could have a heart attack, following a, during a drunken episode and you can’t just hide them off. I mean, what I’d encourage people to do is actually getting understanding of the challenge facing our emergency departments. Read Conor Pope’s article in The Irish Times on Saturday, where he described the carnage associated with alcohol and how it contributed to so many of the presentations in our emergency departments.”
O’Rourke: “I think he spent a 12-hour period in St James’s A&E. Yeah. Another caller: ‘On Arthur’s Day last year I was in the Dame Street area in Dublin around 9 o’clock. The crowds were frightening, it wasn’t evident drunkeness at that hour but the pavements were solid with people, drinking from glass but plastic. There were just two young, very young gardaí to be seen.’ ‘I hate the way we use alcohol to market ourselves’, that’s from Maeve. They’re really coming at you this morning I think, Tanya.”
Clarke: “Well, you know, I understand it’s a heated debate and also, you know, the problem of alcohol misuse is a wide-ranging one but we’re talking here about Arthur’s Day. And, you know, at source, I want to let you know, I’m the marketing director, working on Arthur’s Day five years, that we are proud of Arthur’s Day , we take every single measure possible to ensure it’s a responsible event. It’s one that provides an amazing showcase for talent in Ireland.”
O’Rourke: “Well you talk about that, and you’ve referred to it a few times. That the Guinness, the Arthur Guinness Project. Again the point is being made that this is a hugely successful attempt by Guinness to get nearly the entire artistic and cultural community to do their bidding for free.”
Clarke: “That’s, I mean that’s just not the case. What is it? Well, you know, back in the 250th, we said what would be a fitting tribute to mark a 250-year-old Irish brand. And it had to have an element of philanthropy because that is the history of our company and the Guinness brand. We set up the Arthur Guinness Fund, we’re very proud of the Arthur Guinness Fund awardees and the difference they’ve made in society but five years on things have changed. And we really felt this year it’s about showcasing Irish talent, people who are up and coming across music but also wider range, food, arts, etc. We feel it’s the right thing to do. And, as an Irish person, looking at the context, I would love to provide a platform for them to get a leg up and a start in their career.”
O’Rourke: “Clearly. You’ve said this several times. You’re very proud of this, you think it’s a successful venture. What would make you reconsider that? I mean just how bad would things have to get on the street?”
Clarke: “Very, very clear to me on that – if consumers and our customers said that they didn’t want to have Arthur’s Day again, if interest was waning, as I said, 86% of consumers, we talk to consumers every day of the year, said they would love Arthur’s Day to happen again and that represents the vast majority of people in this country. If they said, do you know what, we’d prefer something else, focus more on rugby sponsorship, or whatever, we would do that. We listen to our consumers every day.”
O’Rourke: “It’s like it’s full steam ahead. Is there any way you would suggest. Or are there any modifications that you might suggest could be introduced?”
Smyth: “I suppose, you know it’s great that, you know, that sections of our society are debating this issue. But unfortunately those sections are over the age of 30, it would seem to me..Arthur’s Day is targeted at 15-25 year olds, as all alcohol…”
Clarke: “That’s not true…”
Smyth: “…marketing and sponsorship is.”
Clarke: “That’s absolutely not true.”
Smyth: “And, you know, I don’t think they’re debating it. I suspect the 86%, who are enthusiastic about Arthur’s Day are largely in that demographic. What I think needs to happen, in order to rebalance our relationship with alcohol and what Alcohol Action Ireland does, and the [Royal] College of Physicians, is to really put the brakes on all sponsorship and advertising activities undertaken by the drinks industry. I don’t think Irish people need any more encouragement to drink any more.”
Clarke: “We have very, very strict codes in terms of marketing alcohol in Ireland…”
Smyth: “That’s nonsense. That’s nonsense.”
Clarke: “One of the strictest in the world. We cannot feature anyone under 25 in our advertising. Every communication from our company is pre-vetted to ensure it doesn’t target young adults. That is not the case that…
[Talk over each other]
Smyth: “You’re permitted to advertise alcohol during programmes which are preferentially watched by children. That is a fact. You’re allowed advertise where up to 25% of viewers of a TV programme are children, even though children only comprise 20% of the potential TV viewing.”
Clarke: “We’ve done our own study on that. The code is 75% has to be adult but actually it’s about 90%. RTÉ and other broadcasters…”
[Talk over each other]
Smyth: “You can still advertise where programmes are preferentially watched by children. And research in the UK, which, of channels like UTV, show that chidlren see more alcohol adverts that adults do.”
O’Rourke: “We have some more reaction from our listeners. ‘Should be abolish Christmas, birthdays? St Patrick’s Day, because people drink? This is crazy stuff’ says Joe in Waterford, Bobby?’
Smyth: “Of course we shouldn’t abolish those things. But again what we would be encouraging is, I suppose, a greater reflection in our society on our relationship with alcohol. And we shouldn’t have a day I suppose that’s entirely devoted to just alcohol and alcohol brand. Christy Moore calls it an alcoholiday which was a nice expression.”
O’Rourke: “What’s your reaction to Christy Moore..well we still have to hear ..we’ve..Joe Duffy on Liveline had the words but we haven’t actually heard the song yet. But again…”
Clarke: “It’s on YouTube. I mean, I like Christy Moore. He’s entitled to write about anything he wants and he’s entitled to make a living.”
O’Rourke: “Right and it’s just, I suppose again, back to the question I asked you earlier, or one of them: Would you reconsider the timing, the fact that it coincides with the end of Fresher’s Week. I mean that’s particularly, you know, something that people might find is unfortunate.”
Clarke: “Well we’ll constantly review that. It hasn’t come up as an issue in the past. As I said, it’s a date now that has been in the diary but, like all activities, we review it each year, to understand, you know, should we run it again? And what are the kind of basics of running the day.”
O’Rourke:” Charlie in Donegal: ‘I like Guinness, but I’m prepared to stop drinking it until they take full social responsibility’. Martin O’Connor: ‘Tanya is talking rot. the drinks industry is only interested in profit maximising and they don’t care about the social, medical and economic consequences. Who gave Diageo the authority to sideline a day out of our calendar and call it Arthur’s Day? Money for themselves’.”
Clarke: “I mean, you know, 62,000 people work within the alcohol industry in Ireland. This is not. I mean we take responsibility for those people, in pubs whether it’s farmers, producing our barley, etc. We feel responsibility for people across the industry. And Arthur’s Day is a day that helps our publicans and have a day…”
O’Rourke: ” Are there concessions given to them in regard to stock that maybe allows them to sell, to sell Guinness at a lower price than normal?”
Clarke: “I mean the price a publican charges, I’m sure you know, is totally up to them.”
O’Rourke: “Yes, I know, but I mean do you give them, as part of the arrangements, do you give them maybe special deals for extra kegs, that kind of thing?”
Clarke: “We would. We’d have customised events.”
O’Rourke: “That sounds like a yes.”
Clarke: “Music acts, you know, you name it, whatever it takes. Often, I remember last year people ran special food events – Guinness and oysters…”
O’Rourke: “Again, a point made, or asked, or raised, by Ronan on Twitter: ‘If Arthur’s Day wasn’t targeted at under 30s, the line-up of acts would look much different.’
Clarke: “Well what about Tom Jones, and Bobby Womack and we have had a real mix. You know Guinness, consumers in Ireland are a very broad range of people from 20-year-olds right up to 60, 65. It is the most-loved beer brand in this country and therefore, on Arthur’s Day or any other day we’d like to have something to interest all of them.”
O’Rourke: “Ok, we’re gonna leave it there.”
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Pic: Adworld.ie
