The Tide Turns



A Water meter being removed in Foxhill, Coolock, Dublin yesterday.

Dublin Says No writes:

“Six Water meters removed after being installed in Foxhill . The residents didn`t want them but were told they had to get them. The residents and the protesters stuck to their guns and eventually GMC conceded and took them out….”

Dublin Says No (Facebook)

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86 thoughts on “The Tide Turns

      1. blueswannabe

        So they’ll cut them off… oh wait they can’t. I don’t know how they’re going to tackle this, it’ll be interesting.Wonder what legal basis they had for demanding removal and why GMC took them out?

          1. droid

            Yeah, we must find some way to penalise people who oppose paying a manufactured charge to a one of the most corrupt companies in the history of the state.

          2. Anne

            How do they lower it to a trickle exactly?

            Within the realm of possibilities would it be possible to untrickle the trickle back to how it was before the trickle?

          3. Corvo

            I assume they’d do it with a valve on the meter. Beyond that I don’t know how they would without either lowering the pressure on the whole street or going in to the house.

        1. Bramble

          Water supply/infrastructure charges are already being paid by all PRSI/PAYE workers through income tax. IF the Govt want to reduce income tax and allow citizens to then pay those charges to IW then let them do so.

      2. Mister Mister

        Yeah, hell no, we won’t pay. Hell no, we won’t pay. Just like out bin charges and property tax..oh wait..

          1. smoothlikemurphys

            You assume that nobody has questioned it.

            Perhaps people have questioned the charge, and then decided that they are OK with paying it.

    1. Stefan Meuer

      How can a company charge you if you’re not a customer and haven’t signed anything?. Thats like being with esb and airtricity sending a bill for not being with them. So no, not pointless pointless is tonothing about this

  1. Cian

    If its being removed, its because its faulty and not because of the residents; just like last time you posted something similar. New one will be in soon enough.

  2. andydufresne2012

    BS I have a suggestion: Get Legal Coffee Drinker in to settle some legal points for us on Irish Water.
    Things like: Do we HAVE to supply our PPS number? What happens if we don’t? Can they reduce water to homes if they refuse to pay for their water? Is Irish Water actually a private company? Does filling out the form equate to a contract? Stuff like that.

        1. Medium Sized C

          Not really.

          You see there is a difference between asking for general comment on a legal state of affairs and asking for advice on specifics of law.

          1. smoothlikemurphys

            LCD has seemingly been happy to provide advice on specifics of law in the past. Some people are just nice like that, y’know?

            These ‘specifics of law’ apply to everyone equally, so it’s not like we’re asking for advice on a personal situation.

    1. Tom Stewart


      Also: does refusal to fill out the form have any bearing on your legal obligation to pay the water charges? Will Irish Water have the legal right to deduct the water charges from your wages/social welfare payments if you don’t pay?

      1. ReproBertie

        The customer form is not a contract and refusing to send it back or fill it in will not stop Irish Water sending bills addressed to “The Occupier”. Refusal to fill out the form means Irish Water will have no idea how many adults and/or children under 17 live in the residence so you will miss out on any allowances you may be entitled to.

    2. ReproBertie

      You only need to supply your PPS number if you want to receive any allowances to which you may be entited, e.g. the extra 21,000L per year per child .

        1. ReproBertie

          People are asking questions and looking for LCD to give information. I provide the information freely available on the internet and that makes me a FG mouthpiece?

          Ollie, the internet’s village idiot.

      1. emaion dev le ra

        i heard FG going in to goverment with isis dont pay the l cut your head off no work because bank er f up country we get taxed we have to pay can hard le live al ready don t know have to emgrait again two kids 7 and 8 just about send them to school food getting harder to put on table every day tv licence house tax now water charge head off you w””””’ i think take up arms again get them out burn them out … from the west ireland we had it with your sh”’t irish gansters drug lords and bandits would run this country better pack your bags and go shame and cut your dole for not paying you cant cut any f””’ more we have nothing even the forners leven 188 euro i say stick it up yur hole kenny the scots had good sence too keep pound its time to call to arms get them out yours
        co galway

    3. Kieran NYC

      They’re unlikely to, as LCD’s reply won’t suit Broadsheet’s agenda on Irish Water.

    4. James Onedin

      Irish Water are sending out ‘Application Packs’, they are inviting the public to subscribe to their water service. The public is not obliged to avail of this offer and can easily and legally decline it. The request for PPS Numbers is necessary for Irish Water not so much to allocate free water allowances as much as to find out where exactly people actually live. Recently, Irish Water have begun talking about a charge for waste water, this is a ruse to find out who has a septic tank and hasn’t already declared it. My advice: Don’t open the application pack, just send it back. If enough people do this, Irish Water will fold as it will have no customers.

  3. ahherenow

    jaysis ‘n all ‘n aneewayz the wahrkin’ man ‘n all joe twas a victhory fa da peeeeeeple joe.

  4. ollie

    water pressure can’t be reduced, also irish water state that your personal data may be sent out of the eu. don’t provide any information to them unless you are happy to have your name, address, pps number and bank details available to someone in any country in the world.

        1. Pretendgineer

          Thanks. I suppose this is necessary to say when data will be sent over the internet and when outsourced call centres will be used (as it seems will be the case.) They still have to ensure data protection laws in Ireland are conformed to though so it’s not like they are selling it. Most of us, if we are with a bank, mobile phone provider, tv/internet provider, subscription service of any kind have our details transmitted all around the world to call centres and processing facilities. There won’t be anything new in this although I’d much prefer if they used local call centres, purely from a local jobs perspective. A semi-state should really be doing what it can to boost the local economy given it’s privileged position.

          1. Liam from Lixnaw

            where is their call centre located? i called them a month ago and spoke to a girl with a heavy Welsh accent

        2. Mister Mister

          It means that data may be stored in a data centre outside of the EU, not that they’re going to be sending it to people outside of the EU.

      1. fmong

        Data that we collect from you may be transferred to a destination outside the European Economic Area (“EEA”). Where this is the case, Irish Water shall be responsible for ensuring that all relevant laws are complied with to secure the data. It may also be processed by staff operating outside the EEA who works for us or for one of our suppliers. Such staff maybe engaged in, among other things, the processing of your request for information and the provision of support services. By submitting data to Irish Water, the customer agrees to this transfer or processing. Irish Water will take all steps reasonably necessary to ensure that your data is treated securely.


        1. James Onedin

          Most people will be familiar with the hoax PC Repair calls which originate in India. How did those scammers get our numbers? If memory serves me correctly, it was as a result of Eircom having a call centre in India at some stage. Your data will not be safe with Irish Water. Irish Water will be privatised. The time to do something about it is now. In a sense, this is Ireland’s answer to the Scottish Independence referendum. Can we criticise the Scot’s fear of grasping a golden opportunity, and then turn around and shrink from our opportunity to tell this Government that enough is enough?

    1. Medium Sized C

      The implication there in being that foreigners cannot be trusted to perform their jobs without using your data to steal from you.

      1. fmong

        Not at all.. I’d be just as worried, if not more worried, about Irish Water morons transfering the date in a secure in appropriate fashion.

      2. Tom Stewart

        That’s the implication that you are taking from it M-SC. Racism may not play a part in people’s worry over this part of the T&C’s. It could instead be coming from a reasonable question of:

        “Em… so my water is going to be supplied in Ireland by a company called Irish Water. Why exactly are you going to send my data outside of the EEA?”

        If there is a reasonable explanation for that part of the T&C’s, it’d then be nice if Irish Water gave it.

    2. ollie

      also, irish water’s data protection hasn’t been agreed with the data protection commissioner yet.

      1. Tom Stewart

        That can’t be above board, what with the deadline to register fast approaching. Chicanery.

        1. ReproBertie

          Of course it’s above board. Two weeks ago, after the fearmongering outcry over PPS numbers, they amended it to say:
          “19/09/2014: Please see below our updated Data Protection Notice that we are currently reviewing with the office of the Data Protection Commissioner. Amendments have been made primarily to clarify to the customer the purposes for which personal data (including PPS numbers) is collected.”

          1. ReproBertie

            Because there’s a difference between a public forum and a company authorised to collect personal data in the execution of their business.

  5. dhaughton99

    What gets me is the damage they are causing to the paths. They are digging these big fecking holes everywhere and they look disgraceful. Happened years ago with the likes of world com etc digging the place up and never refilled properly or with the proper materials.

    1. Lou

      Wrecks my head too – and on a single row of houses they cannot get them lined up properly at all. Expect to see them popping up on one of those “OCD” photo galleries soon…

  6. Louis Lefronde

    When it comes to the PPS number, I think it’s a simple issue of functionality creep. The number to my knowledge was originally for tax and social welfare…however it seems to be migrating into fields it was never supposed to.

    That raises legal issues, namely whether the executive branch of government is directly or indirectly over-stepping the mark under the constitution.

    This might be worth looking into.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if in the near future, the government tries to introduce a mandatory National Identity Card.

    1. smoothlikemurphys

      National Identity Card – not a bad idea, to be honest.

      The PPS number is akin to the American Social Security – it’s a sure-fire way to identify an individual within the state. In this case, it’s so that there can be an allowance given, and that nobody can claim allowances for non-existent people, or multiple locations claiming the same granny lives with them.

      What’s not to get?

      1. Outta me Bento Box

        A bunch of people want to give Irish Water their kid’s Date of Birth, Address and School instead of PPS number. WTF is with these people

    2. ReproBertie

      I don’t see how this raises legal issues. The PPS number is being used to communicate with the Department of Social Protection to determine what allowances are due to the residence so it’s well within the social welfare remit of it’s original purpose.

      Also, as smoothlikemurphys said, the PPS number is the one unique identifier for every citizen in the country. It should be used across the board by all government agencies to allow for data collection and amalgamation. If that had been the case then we would not have been reading about company directors claiming social welfare during the boom years.

        1. ReproBertie

          That’s right Ollie, if the information and opinion being given makes more sense than what you get from your cat’s brainwaves then, rather than address them, dismiss them as coming from a government stooge.


    3. James Onedin

      And what exactly is the new ‘Social Services Card’ if it’s not an ID Card? Also, take a look at all the data you have to supply to get a new driving licence, the ID Card is here already, it’s just called something else.

  7. Tom Stewart


    Yes. It’s starting to be used like the American Social Security number. I see this too and am worried by it: effectively each citizen will have a number.

      1. Tom Stewart

        I heard that there’s a job open that you would be perfect for. But DANG… It’s within George Orwell’s “1984”, so you probably won’t be able to take it.

        1. smoothlikemurphys

          I’m too busy working down at the tinfoil hat factory, for some reason they’re very ‘à la mode’

  8. Louis Lefronde

    Big Brother Irish Style….

    Sneaking into liberty’s changing room like a ‘creep’ in the night….

  9. Franke Hewitt

    Here in Donegal there are only a few treatment plants for sewage in small villages, what happens is the sewage is held in large holding tanks and discharged into the river systems, it’s amazing that from yesterday a private company is responsible for polluting the river Eco systems and nobody is mentioning this fact and furthermore now charging for same. Truly incredible if the refuse collector did the same the EPA would be jailing someone?

    1. Tulip

      They are not a private company. They are state owned company with private sub-contractors, exactly the same as Eircom, ESB and others were or are.

  10. sean

    Typical moronic irish comments here. Spouting uneducated pure s***e AGAINST their brothers and sisters. God this country is full of idiots. DO NOT PAY GO STAND UP FOR EACH OTHER. HAVE SOME PRIDE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

  11. francis o toole


    Just some of my thoughts on the Myths/Lies out there regarding Irish Water for anybody that’s interested.

    If you are up to it I would suggest that you also read the Water Services Act 2007/2013 before making up your mind as to what you want to do.Knowledge is power. When all is said and done, it is your choice, regardless of what the Government or Media would have you believe. I hope this will help to dispel a lot fear people have due to lies, myths and half-truths being put out there by vested interest groups.

    Myth 1 – Irish Water now control the supply of water in Ireland.

    No, they don’t. The Act states that the Government have EXTENDED some of the functions of the Water Services Authorities (Councils) to the Water Metering Authority (Irish Water). It’s important to note the word “extended”. Notice it does not say the word “replaced”. So, unless you consent to enter into a contract with Irish Water, the Water Services Authority will still continue to supply you with YOUR water. Irish Water are a “metering” (billing) company.

    Myth 2 – They will cut off my water if I don’t pay/Turn it down to a trickle.

    This is a lie that was put out there by non-other than Mr Phil Hogan. The act PROHIBITS both the Water Services Authority & the Water Metering Authority, either permanently or temporarily, from turning off/down your water in respect to a dwelling. A Dwelling being a place where people live as opposed to another type of premises such as an office where people work (But they can do it if the premises is not a dwelling.) There are various phone calls posted on youtube where Irish Water confirm this to be a fact, and quote “we don’t know why Phil Hogan said that”[regarding turning down the pressure for non-payment].

    Myth 3 – It’s now the law, I have to sign up with Irish Water.

    No, you don’t. You are under no legal obligation to enter into a Treaty with ANY private company against your will. This is the nub of the issue. There is nothing in either the 2007 or 2013 act to COMPEL a private citizen to sign up to Irish Water. Even if there was, it with would run contrary to the Constitution, Irish Consumer Law, and European Law, and would therefore be completely unenforceable (illegal).
    Regardless of what laws the Government pass, you are still a free citizen with Constitutional Rights (to Property, Privacy, and Protest). They cannot pass ANY law that will limit, or remove these rights from you. They only way the could do this is by holding a referendum.
    Again, your consent is required for the scam to work.
    It is not like the Property Tax that was administered by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. Irish Water are a Private Limited company and have no authority to dip into your finances without your consent.

    Myth 4 – Irish Water is not a Private Company

    While the shares of Irish Water are currently held by the Irish Government, Irish Water is still a private company (Registered No: 530363). Not to mention the fact that we cannot trust that Fine Gael, or any other future Government, will not sell off these shares to Private operators, as they have done in the past with Bord Gais, ESB, Eircom, and AerLingus.
    “We promise not to sell it..” Just like Labours “We promise not to introduce Water Charges”.
    While it is true that it is currently illegal to sell Irish Water, or any part of it, there is nothing stopping this Government, or any future one, from changing the law to MAKE IT LEGAL.
    The 2013 Water Act was signed into law on Christmas Day! What does that tell you?

    Myth 5 – I have to give Irish Water my PPS number

    No, you don’t. Irish Water are now a listed organisation by the Department of Social Protection. This DOES NOT mean that they automatically have access to your PPS number and other details. It simply means that if you sign up to them, YOU are GIVING THEM CONSENT to access, and otherwise use as THEY see fit, your personal, financial, medical and social (PPS) information. Scary isn’t it!
    If you notify Irish Water that you are not their customer, and that you have NO intention of entering into a contract, they cannot access your private information.
    This is important, as you must clearly state your intent.

    Myth 6 – Irish Water will take any money owed from my wages,

    bank, income, or social welfare

    No, they can’t. In the Water Acts its states that monies can be recovered as a “Simple Contract Debt”. Meaning they would have to take you to court. First, they would have to prove that you are their customer, then, that a contract exists, and that you agreed to the price/T&C’s, and that you are now simply refusing to pay. So, they will claim, you are in breach of said contract. If they cannot establish that a valid contract exists, the case will never go as far as Court! They would have no legal standing!
    No Contract. Simple…

    Myth 7 – The meter is the contract

    No, it is not! When they are putting in the meter, please ensure that you have a sign in your window, or inform the Installer either orally, or in writing, that you are not, and have no intention of becoming, an Irish Water customer, and to refrain from installing a meter.
    If they install the meter anyway, send Irish Water a letter (preferably by registered post) telling them that you are NOT a customer of theirs, and that the meter, or any readings taken from it “will not be construed as a contract either explicit or implied”.
    Also, if you wish, you may advise Irish Water that the meter will be considered abandoned property, whether its on public or private land, it is connected to your house, and that they have 21 days to remove the device or you will remove it, and destroy it, “without prejudice or liability” (this last bit means they cannot charge you for the cost of the meter if you remove it or destroy it).

    Myth 8 – My landlord can force me to sign up

    No, s/he can’t. A landlord (or Letting Agency for that matter) has NO business, or legal authority, to ask you for your PPS details and they certainly CANNOT sign you into a private contract with a third party without your consent. No more than I could sign any of you up to a Credit Card company, because, well, I said so! And so what if they have clauses in the lease agreement stating that they can? They cannot enter any term or condition in the lease agreement that would deprive you of your legal rights, as a citizen or as a consumer.
    While the PRTB are asking landlords/letting agencies to gather PPS numbers to register tenants, it turns out that this little practice is entirely ILLEGAL!

    Myth 9 – Irish Water will pay to fix problems on my property (once off)

    Reports are coming in from all over Ireland to say that Irish Water are already reneging on this. People are posting online that they have to pay to get their driveways dug up to fix large leaks, because the issue is on “their property” and therefore not the responsibility of Irish Water!

    People, you have the law on your side. Use it wisely!
    —- I have decided not to consent to become a customer of Irish
    Water, now what?

    Well, that’s a fantastic question. At the time of writing, no organisation has responded to this question for me. On Irish Water’s website it states that if you do not return a completed application pack you are not their customer. So for you, it’s business as usual.

    You will still get your water via your current supplier, the Water Services Authority (Council). There is a reason why the Government, and Irish Water, as well as other groups will not answer this question, it is because IT’S ALL PART OF THE SCAM.
    “Sign-up, or else” “Or else what?” “Nothing, your were supposed to just sign up!”

    Finally, I hope you can see by now that for the Great Water Scam of 2014 to work – You have to CONSENT.
    Without your consent nothing can happen, so don’t give it!

    1. Louis Lefronde

      Francis, you obviously didn’t read Legal Coffee Drinker yesterday. Legally you are wrong in places.

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