This afternoon.
Scenes from the The March For Choice, organised by Abortion Rights Campaign Ireland, urging repeal of the Eight Amendment to the constitution.
The march took supporters from the Garden of Remembrance, Parnell Square to Merrion Square, Dublin [briefly diverted by blazing jammer (see previous post)] for a pro-choice rally.
(Sam Boal/RollingNews)
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Up with this sort of thing. Careful now
How many were there?
Photo 7 – I see a GEEK GAMER FEMINIST PAGAN [Sharrow]
according to the gardai three people and a pigeon
would have been more able to attend if heathen feminist had not already aborted half the planet.
Will no one think of the potential marching babbies?
Yup it was a grand day for it, wonderful to have so many prochoice people out for the March, Repealing the 8th is going to be a door step issue for the next general election.
Amazing day, beautiful weather, great speakers (and after a decade or so of marching and listening to dreadful speeches by mostly politicians, it was a huge relief to hear these fantastic speakers with something to say that was worth listening to).
Well done ARC.
*and all legendary women out there campaigning*
This has been a six month labour of love, but the massive turnout, fantastic atmosphere and wonderful speakers made it all worthwhile.
And if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to sleep for a few weeks
Well done on your hard work, Lorcan. I was proud to be amongst the numbers. And I will march at the next one.
People coming to the march makes the work worthwhile. Regardless of what the number actually was, we had more people this year over last year. And more over the year before that, and more again over the year before that. I really appreciate you (and everyone else) coming out. So to speak.
If you saw a little white dog wearing an ARC Free Safe Legal T-Shirt, the humans attached to her were my wife and I.
I did! Lovely wee doggy.
When does the really important business of arguing about total attendance start in earnest?
It all seems very po-faced to me.
Don’t like abortion? Then vote no in the referendum.
Don’t mind abortion? Then vote yes in the referendum.
Simples.
Except we need a referendum to vote either way.
Abortions for some. Miniature American flags for others
You mean – don’t like MURDER.
Get back in your kennel there Spot.
Don’t like abortion ?
Don’t have one
‘Can’t make it any simpler for ye
+1 for common sense
simples .. just having the right
I totally support women having complete control over their decision to abort.
I also support provision for male ‘legal abortion’ from the fetus.
What’s your view on anal births?
There’ll be lots of that now with the gay marriage.
Is that a fixation thing or did you really miss my point that badly?
If you want to have sex with women, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions.
If that sex results in a pregnancy only the woman can decide whether it goes full term (I am OK with that), her body, etc. The decision can be based on something as simple as “I am not ready to be a mother”.
But, it takes two to tango.The option to ‘exit’ future parenthood should also be open to both sides.
To refuse men that choice under the suggestion that men are irresponsible and women are not is farcical.
Choice…..but only for some, eh Daisy?
You have the choice to not have sex, that way there’ll never be a risk of pregnancy.
It is. You had your choice before the conception.
Careful there, that same argument can be used to deny abortion rights to women if the sex was consensual.
What if contraception failed? What if the man “just isn’t ready?” He deserves to have the choice just like the mother…….right??
Damn. Elegant logic there justin, you’re right. We need to repeal that part of the constitution that forces men to have embryos implanted in them after conception as well I suppose. That’s the only way to be fair about it.
The proposal being discussed is that women should have the right to decide to terminate a pregnancy, men should have the right to chose not to be a father legally with the obligations it entails.
Basically, if the woman wants to proceed with the pregnancy and the man doesn’t, then he would, legally, have the same position as a sperm donor. Call it a legal termination.
Note: I am pro-choice, but maybe more pro-choice than most. I am advocating equal pro-choice rights.
@ Daisy Chainsaw;
You have the choice to not have sex…
Eh, no you don’t.
There’s two of them knocking on my door as I type. They’re gonna wake up the one upstairs and then it’ll all start again. I don’t know why I bother getting dressed.
I hate weekends.
Mark – manolo didn’t mention the constitution when it comes to father’s right to legally terminate.
Pure hypocrisy – being pro choice, but only for women.
Sure Justin
Be delighted to share
Piles, cracked nipples, shit maternity benefits, stretch marks, heartburn like you’ve swallowed a flame thrower, pooing whole turnips, epIsiotomies, leaky tits at work…. Equal pay
Share n’share alike I say
that may be a good reason not to get pregnant, but I fail to see why it would be a justification for claiming termination rights, or to deny rights to someone else. you have my sympathy there but not my vote.
You’re not really arguing about the same thing, Manolo. On the one hand, we have a situation where a woman should be able to decide what to do with her own body. So, that’s that. On the other instance, you have a situation where a baby has been born, and the father wants to ‘legally terminate’ his responsibilities.
They are two different situations, which arise from the biological differences between men and women. And a strong case of ‘YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT…’
I am talking about a man having a say at the early stages of an accidental, unwanted pregnancy (not after the birth as you suggest) derived from consensual sex. In this case I do think that choice should be available to both, to the woman physically, to the man legally.
Choice is choice. Aren’t men are worthy of this right also?
I’m surprised Manolo’s argument isn’t getting more traction among the infamous libertarians of Broadsheet. I read somewhere that this place was coming down with them.
while the concept is on the far end of social liberalism, I fail to see why the concept would be of particular interest to the right wing.
Ah nah Carrolls girl
Manolium is just too high brow for me
I’d only hurt meself
Trying to stay up wi’im
I know what I’m able for
At my age
N’all
I didn’t say it would be of particular interest to the right wing. However now that you mention it, I can totally see how it would be of particular interest to the right wing.
Go on, tell us more.
They are always on the lookout for prime whataboutery to attach fictitious conditions subsequent and slippery slope consequences to the granting of rights. I assume it wasn’t your intention, but your hacky gotcha fits the bill perfectly.
To be fair, that risk did cross my mind. Still, I feel that the 8th will be dropped in due time and it is the time to start talking about this. It is interesting how some pro-choicers are coming out aggressive and inflexible without noticing how they are affecting their own cause negatively.
Once again, for the purpose of clarity, I AM pro-choice, and apparently more pro-choice than most around here.
I’m not sure what the legal situation is where a child is being raised primarily by its father with its mother providing child support and money from the outside (which, tbf, is a relatively rare setup), but I don’t think women in that situation are allowed to just decide to legal separate themselves from their child. So no, it’s not unequal or “less pro-choice” or whatever to suggest that men also shouldn’t be able to do that.
Choice is choice (deep, man), but one of those choices involves compelling someone to give up some money (which, while unpleasant, is minimally invasive), the other involves compelling someone to allow their body to be used as a low-rent incubator, to assume significant health risks, to suffer severe physical restrictions to their life for a period of months, and in extreme cases to be force-fed and operated on against their will.
When men can get pregnant, or when we develop the technology to allow men to carry babies, they can have full choice over what happens to their bodies. In the interim, their wallets will remain fair game (as will, and should, the wallets of women in the reverse situation)
I want to see women have absolute autonomy over their bodies regarding abortion, and I hope the 8th is repealed, but Manolo has made a valid point about men’s rights even though it’s not directly related to this article, as such. Similarly, there are women who deliberately and deviously get pregnant [for security, status, money etc…] without their boyfriend’s/ partner’s consent, and these men are expected to take on the role of father even though they were under the illusion that their partner was taking contraception and that having children was not a consideration, nor might it be; the fight for bodily autonomy should not be the sole preserve of women and men’s rights should be recognised as important as women’s.
if you don’t want a baby “without your consent” as a man, your options are:
1 – don’t have sex,
2 – if you do, don’t have intercourse,
3 – if you do, wear a condom. (Although they are not foolproof)
4 – If a fool, see option1.
If you decide to go in unsheathed or the condom breaks and your ladyfriend gets pregnant your options are:
5 – Go 50% on raising a baby
6 – Go 50% on the costs of an abortion.
The person who makes the choice about 5 or 6, is the person who will have the procedure or carry the baby to term. No one else. Not even you, lads, sorry.
As a man if you do not like those options – See 1 to 4 above. THOSE ARE YOUR OPTIONS in these circumstances. “Sorry M’lud, I didn’t mean to get caught is not a defense when you are caught with your hand (cock) in the till” You do not get to walk away from what you have done just because you do not like the outcome.
So a ripped condom = life sentence, if she decides so.
You sound like my mother in law. That’s not a compliment.
I think you will see that I gave 5 other options in the section above, I even numbered them. I am so unsorry that my logic made you feel that you had no other option but to resort to personal insults. That’s not a compliment either.
If your comment was directed at me Liggy, then it seems to me that your interpretations of options 1-4 can be applied to both sexes – equally, as can your options of 5-6 regarding the costs of continuing or terminating the pregnancy, therefore, it stands to reason that points 1-6 can be applied equally to both males and females in a scenario where they find they have to make a decision – as opposed to your assertion ‘The person’. Also, as a continuation of this point, you seem to assume the only effects of either decision lie singularly with the female, which is not true; not to mention your conclusion which reads:’“Sorry M’lud, I didn’t mean to get caught is not a defense when you are caught with your hand (cock) in the till” You do not get to walk away from what you have done just because you do not like the outcome.”‘ I’m sure there are cases where some men [and women] make mistakes, but whether it’s through ignorance, accident, laziness or in the heat of passion, both parties should take responsibility for their actions, which includes talking with each other and coming to mutual consent on which path to take, either way, both should be involved in the process.
However, you haven’t addressed my point about women who deliberately stop taking contraceptives and who get pregnant ‘without’ their boyfriend’s/ partner’s consent; not every man/ woman in a relationship wants to have children then or ever; some people already have children from previous relationships; not every man/ woman wants to have children with the person they are with at that moment: there are so many reasons why what you have written is wrong, because it denies men the right to have a say in how and when they to choose to be a father. There will always be men who just want to be there for the fun times and they should be held accountable – whether it’s option 5/ 6 as you’ve proffered above – but for you to assume that men do not deserve the right to have a say, or to be represented equally in society just because they don’t have to carry a child full-term, is wilfully ignorant and sexist on your part. Consensual sex, especially under false and misleading pretences does not equal consent to be a father.
Yes, of course all 6 options can be applied to both parties. Did I say otherwise?
The choice of whether to go with 5 or 6 so lie solely with the female. You cannot force someone to have a baby nor can you force them to go through with an abortion. Admittedly the authorities in this country have tried and have paid a heavy price in reputation and soon. in monetary term for their “troubles”.
Theoretically, there may be “some” unknown women who deliberately get pregnant to trap “some” unknown men. Do you have any stats other than hearsay on what the numbers are who indulge in this practice or is this just some woman-hating rhetoric you have picked up somewhere?
Once upon a time everyone thought the the Earth had edges and was flat. Today, people prefer their absolutes with a little ice and a slice of evidence rather than the cackle of the gossips in the back of the church.
….. if your opinion of women is so low as to think that they are all out to trap your sperm in their baby-making apparatus in order to spin up a child they have to bring up on their own. Then why wouldn’t you just give every women you go to bed with excellent oral sex and spare yourself the worry that she is out to trap you. (Option 2 from my list above) Problem solved. Tell all your friends.
>>However, you haven’t addressed my point about women who deliberately stop taking contraceptives and who get pregnant ‘without’ their boyfriend’s/ partner’s consent; <<
And how often does this actually happen? Gender disparity issues, be they discriminating against women or men are very serious and need to be addressed and redressed, but fixating on things that might not even be a problem in the first place doesn't help anybody. Look at the so-called Men's Rights movement in the US. It's turned into an excuse for angry men to scream about feminists and it's made discussion of things that should be dealt with – like the higher percentage of successful suicides amongst men, the larger percentage of men in the homeless population, and male victims of domestic abuse – into a no-go zone in many places
If that’s the case, then it should be enshrined in the constitution that all men have to have a vasectomy until they want children. On choosing to have a child, an ethics committee will then decide if you deserve to have your vasectomy reversed here in Ireland. Of course, men will always have the option to travel to the UK to have their vasectomies reversed.
That way your reproductive rights are recognised as being as important as a woman’s.
Also: You get 14 years in prison if you reverse your vasectomy yourself
Ah now Daisy
You’ve given them far too much to think about
Giving the State control over a man’s reproductive rights ?!?!?!
Well
Strictly speaking
It does address equality
So I’d vote for it
I’d even canvas for it
Spot on Eliot.
Just hold on there manolo, this issue is about women’s rights and bodily autonomy. You know, under patriarchy and all. Why don’t you just relax for a few days and let this conversation happen with saying, ‘ah but men too..’.
Go organise a campaign or demo if you care so much. It’s akin to people saying ‘ah jaysus yeah asylum seekers are grand but what about the homeless issue in Ireland’. You can campaign for both. And seriously manolo, I think we hear about poor aul men’s lives enough of the other 50 odd weeks a year.
Repeal the 8th, solidarity with all women on this issue. On behalf of men, sorry about manolo here, it’s a man thing…
That’s an amazingly selfless position for a guy to take… if only!
Okay..
Nice for them to get out and about especially with our late Indian summer.
Nice.
A lot of countries don’t think it is murder.
Numbers 5:
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.
28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”
I don’t believe it’s murder either.
But I believe it’s wrong.
Don’t like abortion? Then vote against it in any upcoming referendum.
Or just don’t have one
the “just don’t have one” party doesn’t apply to me as I am male.
Ding ding ding… correct. Exactly.
So butt out Payter
The “Don’t like abortion? Don’t have one” is one of the lamest slogans ever. It’s trotted out, of course, by pro choice people who fail to grasp the most basic reason people might be pro choice…..that there is another human being in the mix. People have a right, a duty in fact, to stand against a human life being taken. To suggest that people should just turn a blind eye is silly.
As in not vote.
Should all men boycott the referendum?
Even the pro-choice ones?
Nope.
Vote what way ya like
Early and often
If that’s what yer inta
Butt out
Of telling someone they have ta go through an unwanted pregnancy
Butt out
Of denying someone access to an abortion
Butt out of bringing pregnant women to court
And by fûpp
Butt out
Of forcing a Caeserian Section on one
Don’t like abortion
Don’t have one
Now get off my tits
Justin – your logic is quite flawed there, it hinges on presuming your moral choice is superior and therefore more valid than someone else’s. In all honesty, I’m not in favour of abortion in every circumstance, but my moral decision isn’t as important as the woman who’s making that decision. Which is why I volunteer for a campaign that has the ultimate goal of free, safe, legal abortion in Ireland.
Your stance also ignores that legislation against abortion will never prevent abortion, it’ll just make it more difficult and more dangerious. You’re inadvertantly discriminating against the poor, asylum seekers, migrants, wards of the state and other people who can’t afford to travel for an abortion, and therefore have to risk ordering the abortion pill online and hoping it gets through customs, or taking more drastic measures – and on those cases, they’re risking a 14 year jail sentence.
Your stance is also coloured by being in the position of never having to make that decision. Maybe you should pay attention to what women who’ve had abortions, and those who want access to them have to say.
Thanks Lorcan.
The second “pro” in my last comment should have read “pro-life”. I’m sure most would have guessed.
That’s all just moral relativism Lorcan. The fact is it IS morally wrong to take a human life except in self defense. Most societies legislate against it. Where they don’t eg the death penalty, they are rightly criticised for it.
Abortion is the deliberate taking of human life.
It’s very easy to dismiss as moral relativism when you’ll never have to go through it.
Men shouldn’t be allowed discuss abortion, eh Lorcan? Where does that leave you? Women past child bearing age shouldn’t expect a hearing either.
Only school children should debate education policy too….etc, etc.
That’s not what I said, and it’s not exactly becoming of reasoned, respectful debate to put words in someone else’s mouth.