This afternoon.
Pavee Point Traveller & Roma Centre
North Great Charles Street, Dublin
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President Higgins with Sabina Higgins (right) and Molly Connors, before delivering a speech to mark Pavee Point’s 30th anniversary that urged greater understanding of traveller and Roma communites and touched on the recent tragedy in Carrickmines. More to follow.
Update:
From President Higgins’ speech:
“The campaigns for equality and non-discrimination, for recognition of the status of Travellers as an ethnic minority, and for access to essential services, which Pavee Point and others have led since then have been grounded in a deep and profound understanding of the position of Travellers within the framework of human rights and the Irish State’s obligations to respect, protect and promote those rights.
In the past I have been part of the debate on ethnic status. I recall Dr. Joshua Castellino and I rejecting what we felt was a very inadequate research basis for denying ethnic status.
Within the framework of human rights, there has been progress over the intervening years and it is important that is recognised.
Back when Pavee Point was formed, Traveller children were still segregated in Traveller schools and many Traveller children left education without completing primary school and were often illiterate. The very idea that these children could attend third level colleges was often beyond their own comprehension.
Today overt segregation in the classroom and beyond have ceased, more Traveller children are attending second level schools and young Travellers are achieving high levels of educational attainment, and increased numbers are progressing through third level education each year, but we are far from the fullest understanding of the heritage, culture and aspirations of Travellers as a people that is required. My own experiences of the institutional treatment of Travellers at local authority level were far from satisfactory.
It has often made Sabina and I not just sad, but angry at the treatment which Traveller families who had become our friends had to endure, including having to live in unsafe and even hazardous conditions.”
Full speech here
Pic Hans Zomer
Thank god that article is here on broadsheet, I can only imagine the comments if it was on over at journal towers
Brace yourself there Joe
They LOVE the travellers over at the journal. And refugees. And minorities. And y’know, anyone different.
Love to hate them?
They love to hate everyone. Its the new liberalism, hating people.
I ironically hated people before it was cool
“Oh they’re just some people I hate. You’ve probably never heard of them.”
Liberalism?
Google it pet
I did, love. I can’t find any definition that says people who talk about The Loony Left and hate gays/travellers/immigrants/muslims/unicorns/getting out of bed before 12 are liberal.
Ah we misunderstood each other. I was implying that some people who adopt certain outlooks or opinions simply because
Sorry my phone farted.
Anyway. People who adopt certain “fashionable” opinions might be inclined to rapidly change their opinions to suit the more conservative and jumpy mindset that seems to have emerged following the attacks in Paris.
mellowparp was it?
I wonder how hard our president campaigned for people who can no longer fish in their own waters our cut turf in their fields, after all its their heritage and way of life for generations…….. where else have I heard that said.
You mean fish unsustainable oceans and pillage the non-renewable bogs?
You think you’re left-wing?
Thank you. I was hoping someone would use that exact argument, so the damage they do is the reason their culture for generations has to stop. Who else could we apply that to.
RTE need to make a programme with Squee in a tweed suit travelling around the country in this little caravan telling stories to kids.
A squeed suit if you will…
Ookie the Uachtarain™
They’ll need stronger springs on the wagon: the First Citizen’s now a spacehopper in human form.
He could read his poeimmz…..
Did you know that Wanderly Wagon was loaded with innuendo about politicians and the Catholic church?
Explain.
Please do. My curiosity is piqued.
“greater understanding of the traveller and Roma communites “. No thanks, I understand them perfectly
+1,000
Translation; ‘No thanks. I don’t want to admit to myself that my prejudices are rather stupid’.
Traveller culture is at odds with that of settled people. I don’t see why people can’t admit that which is patently obvious.
A much more useful approach would be to teach travellers a greater understanding of settled people.
And vice versa to some extent. Travellers place a high premium on hard work, reliability and family stability: the pity is it’s hard to put down roots when the wanderlust is rising.
I reply to myself because I mean to say: continuity of education etc is very important for all kids in society. I’m sure that accounts of young Travellers often missing school are few and far between.
‘Traveller culture is at odds with that of settled people.’
So don’t engage in traveller culture then.
‘I don’t see why people can’t admit that which is patently obvious.’
Because your opinion is not objective reality.
‘A much more useful approach would be to teach travellers a greater understanding of settled people.’
Ok, and what do travellers need to learn about settled people?
Traveller culture “engaging” with settled people is the problem. If you don’t see that rates of criminality and antisocial behaviour in the travelling community are off the charts compared to settled people then you’re wilfully ignorant, and to label all those who point that out as racists and bigots is cowardly and unhelpful to any discussion about the significant friction between the communities.
I would argue that my point is entirely objective, contrary to your claim. Statistics on crime rates, prison population, domestic violence, sexual violence, levels of education, substance abuse (including alcohol) and animal rights show major discrepancies between travellers and the settled community.
I would suggest that travellers need to learn at least the following about the settled community:
– Education is valued in the vast majority of us, and seen as a positive in our lives. Education is not respected or aspired to in a majority of travellers.
– Social housing is respected and looked after in the vast majority of cases.
– Animal rights are respected in the vast majority of cases. Owning large animals is not generally seen as a “right” or part of our “culture” unless we have the means and facilities to look after them.
– Criminality is not a legitimate way of life for the vast majority of settled people. Again look at the statistics. At the least it is a very large minority of the traveller community who embrace illegal activity as a life choice. Travellers are 0.6% of our population, yet are 5.4% of the prison population; traveller men are up to 11 times more likely to be in prison, while traveller women are up to 22 times more likely.
I used the term “vast majority” several times there to pre-empt the usual whining of “but settled people do this stuff too!”. Of course they do, but not even in the same league as how common it is among travellers. You could squeal all day about me being a racist a**hole, but the statistics prove that there IS a major problem, and burying our heads in the sand about it won’t help.
“Traveller culture “engaging” with settled people is the problem.”
Yeah, I thought that’s where you were going. That was easier than expected. “Culture”? You’re just some racist.
“If you don’t see that rates of criminality and antisocial behaviour in the travelling community are off the charts”
And how do the crime rates of Neilstown compare to Dalkey?
“I would argue that my point is entirely objective,”
LOL. Of course you would.
“Education is not respected or aspired to in a majority of travellers.”
Some classic objectivity right there.
“You could squeal all day about me being a racist a**hole”
Thanks.
“there IS a major problem”
I know, but I don’t think we’ll ever be completely free of racism.
I knew you’d jump to shrieking racism. I honestly don’t care what you think of me, but steadfastly refusing to admit there’s a problem will only serve to prolong and exacerbate the divide.
From the census: “Seven out of ten Travellers (69%) were educated to Primary level at most, including 507 persons aged between 15 and 19. The number of Irish Travellers who completed third level in 2011 was 115 or one per cent. This compares with 30.7 per cent of the general population excluding Irish Travellers.” How’s that for “classic objectivity”? 69% is a majority in my book.
Why are you ignoring provable statistics? How about, rather than shouting racism over anyone who might dissent from the narrative that all travellers are special snowflakes oppressed by the man, you try to deal with counterpoints like an adult?
“I knew you’d jump to shrieking racism.”
Well, you *did* say a lot of racist stuff, so….
“but steadfastly refusing to admit there’s a problem will only serve to prolong and exacerbate the divide.”
I have no problem admitting you have a problem with travellers.
“How’s that for “classic objectivity”?”
Statistics don’t say anything about motive or circumstance. If you weren’t a racist clown, you’d know that.
“How about…..you try to deal with counterpoints like an adult?”
How about you make some actual grown up counterpoints?
In fairness Moyest you are ignoring the facts in his points, no matter how racist or not racist they are stated.
Also…. what were you trying to say when you wrote – ” “Culture”? You’re just some racist”.
Ta
Clamps
Like I said, stats don’t say anything about circumstance or motive. For instance, it’s well known that black people are hugely over represented in American prisons. A simpleton will look at that stat and think that black people are more criminal than white people. Smart people will, for example, take into consideration how the American justice system unfairly treats black people.
And I was trying to say that he was showing faux concern for travellers. When he talks about problems within their culture, what he means is he just doesn’t like travellers.
Thanks Clampers, I had decided not to try to engage any further.
Don’t presume to speak for me. When I “talk about problems within their culture” what I’m actually talking about is… problems within their culture. Imagine that. A culture that, in at least a significant minority of cases, can and has been statistically proven to refuse to contribute to society as a whole yet demands all the perks of that society. If you refuse to accept that my points are valid, you are wilfully ignorant. Call me racist if you like, but not acknowledging there’s a problem is stupid, to be blunt.
“A culture that, in at least a significant minority of cases, can and has been statistically proven to refuse to contribute to society as a whole yet demands all the perks of that society.”
So they take but they don’t give. You’re doing my job for me here.
You simply have nothing to say. That’s grand.
To a racist who literally said his perspective is objective reality? Nah.
In all of this you’ve not provided a single counterpoint. I’ve backed up what I’ve said with statistics without even having to go near the insane amounts of anecdotal evidence that shows the friction caused by many adherents of traveller culture. You think you’re being pithy with your snappy retorts to quoted phrases, but you just look like an idiot and you’ve done nothing to back up your accusations of racism.
Whether or not you think I’m being racist, I couldn’t care less. You’re just being a child and you have nothing to offer.
Fine clarification that, Moyest.
In fairness Yea,OK the stats don’t say anything about living circumstances of the individuals in jail. Traveler ‘poverty’ is often blamed for this. As per Moyests’ black people in jail point, which is indisputable.
But, in fairness Moyest, there is an element of culture in those numbers too. But I would agree that poverty is the bigger part of it.
“greater understanding of the traveller and Roma communites “. An encampment or halting site at the Aras should achieve those objectives.
Those caravans are lovely. Much nicer than the modern ones. I used to leave near a settled traveller that specialised in restoring them. He always had five or six in his yard at various stages of completion. Not sure if he’s still alive (he’d be over 80 now) but hopefully the tradition has been passed down.
Settled traveller..now we’ve all gone mad PC. In the world as some people see it, a traveller is as entitled to the special seat in the bus as the elderly or disabled person.
gyppos?
no thanks
Paid your water charges?
Lets hope MD is not jumping on the bandwagon, the real question is to establish
who formulated national policy for Travellers, were the policies cooked up in the
60’s and have they now evolved into the disaster that has stigmatised this group
created the disrust of them in the settled community, it is a reflection of Irish Society that a disportiniate perentage are in jail….but are not in third level education
We critised the South Africans for years yet we allowed almost the same to go on
here…..we need to rethink it all again.