No Paddy’s Day Wagons

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Shnakey.

Previously: Trams Like Us

Mark Stedman/Rollingnews

94 thoughts on “No Paddy’s Day Wagons

  1. Joan Burton

    Good on them. Its a disgrace that they’re only on an average of 43 grand a year. Sure it takes weeks to learn how to push the go/stop button, weeks.

    54% increase over 5 years seems fair to me, ive a 4% over the next 5 years but sure im just well jel

  2. Condescending Nana

    why get higher education when you can drive the Luas and blackmail taxpayers until you get exactly what you want? Asking for a friend.

  3. Yea, Ok

    Sack the lot of them. As someone who uses it regularly, I’ll happily do without luas service for the less than two months it takes to train a new batch of drivers.

        1. Bort

          I’ll get the petrol, they are really fudging up St. Patricks day for a lot of people including a lot of families with small children. The bus will be chaos. I have even less support for them now.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Right. So I’m Tom the Luas driver (I’m not) and I’m on €35k a year after working here for the past 8 years. I’ve a mortgage and 2 kids. I see train drivers, who do a very similar job to me, get paid more more than I. Paying €1000 a month on my mortgage as well as car insurance and petrol for my wife so she can take the kids to school and buy groceries, plus the cost of those groceries, isn’t that easy when I’m taking home less than €2,500 a month. My boss has refused to discuss a raise with me for years. However, I shouldn’t try and do anything about it because Bort doesn’t want to bring his kids to town on the bus on Paddy’s day.

            Would you listen to yourself?

          2. Starina

            @Moyest – So Tom’s wife doesn’t work?

            Train drivers have a lot more technical jobs and can actually kill someone if someone jumps out in front of the train.

            You can have a 2-5% raise like the rest of us, in line with inflation.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            No, Tom’s wife stays at home to mind the kids because child care is too expensive. Pretty sure Luas drivers can kill people as well. Pretty sure that’s already happened actually.

            “You can have a 2-5% raise *like the rest of us*, in line with inflation.”

            Like the rest of us. This is just begrudgery.

          4. MoyestWithExcitement

            Holding Paddy’s Day to ransom? Are you just trolling me now? You can’t seriously mean that.

          5. ReproBertie

            Starting pay is €32K rising to €42 after 10 years so Tom is in €40K after 8 years (not counting his bonus). Also, Tom’s boss is happy to discuss a raise and has made an offer and, if I remember correctly, both sides went to the WRC but the SIPTU members rejected the proposals.

          6. ReproBertie

            Also, if “You can have a 2-5% raise like the rest of us, in line with inflation.” is begrudgery then how is “I see train drivers, who do a very similar job to me, get paid more more than I” not just begrudgery?

          7. MoyestWithExcitement

            They’re asking for something for themselves. You’re trying to stop them from having it because you don’t have it. I think you might need to read up on the meaning of the word.

          8. classter

            Moyest, part of the reason that the Luas is operated the way that it is is because the public were fed up with what was perceived as ‘shoddy’ service from an ‘over-paid, over-unionised, incompetent’ (note the inverted commas) workforce in CIE.

            Therfore, pointing to the salaries of train drivers does not hold much water,

          9. MoyestWithExcitement

            Except it’s literally why the strike is happening. They think they should be paid more because other people doing a very similar job get more. That’s totally reasonable. After that it’s about negotiation.

          10. ReproBertie

            I’m not trying to stop anyone have anything. I’m just questioning how “I want what they have” is good but “you can have what everyone else has” is bad.

          11. MoyestWithExcitement

            I’m not stopping you from having anything by asking for a fair wage from my employer. You telling me I shouldn’t be asking for a fairer wage because you’re not paid fairly is begrudgery. They’re only concerned with their own business. You’re concerned with someone elses business. I don’t know how to make it any simpler.

          12. classter

            ‘You telling me I shouldn’t be asking for a fairer wage because you’re not paid fairly is begrudgery. ‘

            How are you defining fair?

            And how are you deciding what group to measure tram drivers against? Truck dirvers? Private bus drivers? CIE train drivers? Tram drivers in Edinburgh? Train drivers in Belfast? A median group of low-skilled workers in Dublin?

          13. ReproBertie

            Once again. I am not trying to stop anyone having anything. I have not expressed an opinion on the strike or the reasons for the strike here or in any other thread about the strike.

            Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that €32K-€42K is not a fair wage and you appear to imply that any offer other than what the drivers want is unfair and anyone suggesting otherwise, or even questioning their demans, is fuelled by begrudgery.

          14. MoyestWithExcitement

            “How are you defining fair?”

            How I define it or how you define it is completely irrelevant. It is a totally subjective word.

            “And how are you deciding what group to measure tram drivers against?”

            I’m not. They did. Are you telling me you’ve thrown up all these posts without actually reading up on the topic?

          15. MoyestWithExcitement

            “I am not trying to stop anyone having anything.”

            The royal you then. I also said I was asking for a fair wage from my employer. I’m not a Luas driver. Less of the pedantry, please.

            “Your entire argument seems to be based on the assumption that €32K-€42K is not a fair wage”

            That’s what the Luas drivers think, yes.

            “and you appear to imply that any offer other than what the drivers want is unfair”

            And what did I say that implied that?

            “anyone suggesting otherwise, or even questioning their demans, is fuelled by begrudgery.”

            Anyone? Nowhere did I say anyone. I said Starina was fuelled by begrudgery because she said “You can have a 2-5% raise like the rest of us” It was mainly the ‘like the rest of us’ and the sneering tone that screamed begrudgery.

          16. ReproBertie

            Fair enough. I read you wrong on the non-specificity of “You” and on the begrudgery I may be attributing other posters’ comments from a previous thread to you based on your unstinting defence of the strike.

    1. Brian S

      I was saying the same thing earlier. Pay Dublin bus for extra services, let them stay on strike and train new drivers. Tell the public that in 7 weeks they will have the service back and contractually bind the new workers not to join siptu or strike. Give them the same decent wage that the current drivers are getting for doing a very menial and unskilled job that requires no education to do.

  4. Cup of tea anyone?

    When people went for those jobs did they honestly expect to be up on 60K some day. I mean where is the career progression?

    In most jobs you start at the bottom and work your way up. salary increases with experience and obtained knowledge. If you start a job that clearly has no progression at all, you should not expect your salary to rise outside of inflation.

  5. 15 cents

    they get paid over 40k to push literally one lever up n down … if they want more money, let them go apply their lever pushing skills somewhere thatll pay above that. greedy whooers. they’ve the cruisiest job in the land, and they still want more.

    Im a graphic designer, did 4 years for my degree, worked lots of unpaid and low paid jobs until years later finally started to earn a bit, on 44k now, and they train for 2 months and get 43k a year, and still arent happy? they paid em too much to start off with, people will always want more no matter what.

    1. Termagant

      How much force do you reckon you’d need to apply to topple over a Luas and light it on fire and dance naked around it chanting in incoherent rage?

    2. Tish Mahorey

      “worked lots of unpaid and low paid jobs”

      You mustn’t be much good. Only fools work for free.

      1. 15 cents

        ‘worked’ .. past tense .. like most people, you start at the bottom and work up. you dont come out of college and stroll into a deadly job. i dunno what you do, Tish, but you dont seem to know how the world works. as for moyest, hands down the biggest clown on BS. for a start, i wasnt whining about usefulness, you just like to interpret things however way you see you can make it into an argument, regardless of what someone says. i was ‘whining’ about luas drivers complaining about pay when they get paid more than 70% of the country, and do less work than say nurses etc. so wind yer neck in ya dope.

      1. classter

        Really, you are snivelling about graphic design not being useful?

        Luas drivers can be trained up in a couple of months – it takes far longer to be a grpahic designer of even basic competence.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          As long as we have graphic designers snivelling about usefulness, we absolutely should have people snivelling about *their* usefulness. They spend 3 months learning photoshop and they think they’re artists. They have no right to tell anyone else that their job isn’t useful.

    1. ReproBertie

      They don’t get overtime and Sundays and public holidays are treated as normal working days. That’s part of the reason they’re striking.

  6. Tish Mahorey

    Yeah bloody unskilled workers wanting to raise a family and pay a mortgage. They don’t deserve things. They should live in poverty for not having a third level education or one of those paid for by Daddy pretend degrees from private colleges that never fail anyone.

      1. Nigel

        I kinda think the Luas demands are excessive, but this says more about how little we pay Gardai than how much we pay drivers.

        1. classter

          Irish Guards are actually relatively well paid compared to their counterparts in other countries.

          12k less than 43k is 31k

          There are relatively few careers in Ireland which begin at a salary level well in excess of 31k

    1. Condescending Nana

      you upskill, you don’t hold a city to ransom, but then why do more when you can whinge and moan about your entitlements. Sure we’re all entitled to have a mortgage and a gaggle of kids paid for by “the government”.

      1. Nice Jung Man

        wa wa wa

        damn those people arguing for a better life for themselves – who do they think they are?

        1. classter

          They are not ‘arguing for a better life for themsleves’ – they are trying to extort more money from the populace.

          1. classter

            We effectively subsidise Transdev because they don’t pay for any of the capital cost of the Luas.

            Then the Luas is actually quite expensive. This cost is borne by passengers and also feeds into the general cost of living in the city.

            Then there is the point that 43k is quite a reasonable pay for a job which, while useful and important, is not highly skilled. I nthe same way that I bristle when I hear the CEO of some two-bit charity explaining that they need >100k, I feel the same about this.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            “We effectively subsidise Transdev because they don’t pay for any of the capital cost of the Luas.”

            So, no then. We don’t own them and Luas drivers are not extorting money from the populace. They are striking to get better pay from a private multinational company. Your line is emotive spin. Mine is literally what’s happening.

            “This cost is borne by passengers and also feeds into the general cost of living in the city.”

            How can you type while you’re holding so many straws in your hand? Right, so no workers anywhere can demand higher pay then seeing as they’re all ultimately paid by the end user.

            “Then there is the point that 43k is quite a reasonable pay for a job”

            Well as far as the people who are actually working in the job, it’s not reasonable. They’re the only people whose opinions matter here.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            And you can ignore the unhinged troll. That was for me. I embarrassed him a week ago and he’s still bitter about it.

          4. classter

            The reason I used the word ‘extort’ is that Luas drivers are using the fact that they are operating a publicly-funded (As in the capital cost) system & can, in the short-term, shut it down as a negotiating tactic.

            ‘Fine’, you might say,’that’s part of being in a union’. But inappropriate use of that weapon by unreasonable unions helped kill quite a lot of native industry – Irish Glass Bottle, Dairygold, Team Air Lingus, etc.

            Could you point to a single private sector position where you can earn significantly more than 43k with such low barriers to entry?

            I hope that Transdev/RPA and the govt will have the steel to face this down.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            “The reason I used the word ‘extort’ is that Luas drivers are using the fact that they are operating a publicly-funded (As in the capital cost) system & can, in the short-term, shut it down as a negotiating tactic.”

            Just like ESB workers and cops and fire fighters and teachers and so on. They’re not operating in a free market where they can just get another tram driving job. This is their only option.

            “But inappropriate use of that weapon by unreasonable unions”

            I think 4 days over the space of a month, including at least 1 public holiday, is perfectly appropriate and reasonable.

            “Irish Glass Bottle, Dairygold, Team Air Lingus, etc.”

            There are other bottling plants, airlines and brands of butter. There is no other tram and, for most people, 1 other mode of public transport.

            “Could you point to a single private sector position where you can earn significantly more than 43k with such low barriers to entry?”

            Sales. I earned more than that when I was 23.

            “I hope that Transdev/RPA and the govt will have the steel to face this down.”

            And I hope I never see you complain about the squeezing of the middle classes or the growing wealth gap when you’re so eager to step on people trying to do something about it.

          6. classter

            ‘And I hope I never see you complain about the squeezing of the middle classes or the growing wealth gap when you’re so eager to step on people trying to do something about it.’

            You are talking about a small group of low-skilled workers holding everybody to ransom.

            You are not talking about wider moves to reduce the structural causes of widening inequality. The cost of this would be borne directly by the ‘squeezed’ ‘middle classes’.

            If the drivers were on 20k, I would agree. A strike would be completely reasonable. At 43k, they are taking the p!ss. This inability to calibrate responses to issues is what has long hamstrung the left in Ireland imo. The left often speaks about the importance unions in the German model without accepting how pragmatic German unions can be.

          7. MoyestWithExcitement

            “You are talking about a small group of low-skilled workers holding everybody to ransom.”

            Holding to ransom. There you go with your emotive spin again. Is there something stopping people from getting a bus? Talk about selfish.

            “The cost of this would be borne directly by the ‘squeezed’ ‘middle classes’.”

            So it’s the fault of the middle class that the middle class is shrinking? This is some serious mental gymnastics on show.

            “The left often speaks about the”

            Ah, so this is a left v right issue for you. Now things are becoming clearer. This is about your political ideology as opposed to concern for your poor downtrodden fellow citizens that’ll have to get the bus to town on Paddy’s Day instead of a tram.

          8. classter

            This is PARTLY a left v right issue for me. I consider myself to be fairly leftish but the left in Ireland seems to constantly work against itself. It is also a basic practicality issue. If we pay unreasonable sums of money to some workers, others will demand the same. Eventually, we are much more expensive than the countries with whom we hope to trade, from which we plan to attract investment, etc.

            Is there any salary level at which you would not support the Luas driver’s demands? At what point, would you not accuse me of trying to do down the ‘middle classes’?

            What if they were on 45k? 55k? 60k? 100k?

            They are already earning as much or more than the median teacher / welder / security guard / nurse / guard / electrician / research scientist / …

    2. Yea, Ok

      Yes daddy paid for everyone’s education. I hate this attitude – “you have more than me so someone must have given it to you”.

    3. Cynthia

      Earning €42K is living in poverty? Riiiiiight…

      Moronic comments like Tish’s are useful because they emphasise how ridiculous the drivers’ demands are.

    4. Brian S

      35k starting is not living in poverty you bell end. If it’s not enough to support your life style then stop having kids/over stretching yourself financially/buying a house you can’t afford.

    5. Starina

      35k is not poverty, don’t be fatuous.

      Also – darnit! I just realised I should have got Daddy to pay for my degree instead of working two jobs while studying full time and not seeing my parents for 5 years because I couldn’t afford the trip home! L O L

  7. Demoniac

    ‘Twas long before the shamrock, the green isle’s loved emblem, was crushed in its beauty neath the Luas’s iron paw…

  8. Farty McCarthy

    AND they don’t even drive it well – ask any car driver who has been slammed into the the ‘Luas’

    1. Kieran NYC

      I’d tend to say the car is at fault there rather than the thing that runs on a fixed track and schedule.

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      Sooo……maybe it’s a bit more complicated than just pushing a button and all you self entitled whinge bags aren’t the centre of the universe after all?

          1. classter

            I still think their strike is unreasonable.

            43k is not a poor reward for the work.

            The strikers may be successful in the short term but in the medium term they will have antagonised the public, provided support to those on the right side of the political spectrum & hastened the adoption of driverless technology. Realistically, the Luas could be driverless now, if the will was there.

  9. rugbylane

    I don’t have a dog in this fight. However I know an artificially created account when I see it & there are lots of artificial accounts here.

  10. some old queen

    A Luas driver is unskilled? They are driving a machine which is twice the weight of an articulated truck with FOUR different sets of brakes carrying a couple of hundred people. Then they have to avoid running over every drunk, car clown and god knows what else. It’s not a job I’d want. The stress alone.

    And this rise is the total of an eight year period where for six and a half, the employer wouldn’t even discuss the issue. It’s thier own fault and they are screwed.

    1. Rob_G

      You could say more-or-less the same thing about anyone who drives a vehicle for a living, most of whom earn substantially less.

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        Train drivers don’t. Hence the strike. But, sure, it’s just pressing buttons and other people who aren’t Luas drivers went to college to get degrees in graphic design so people who actually are Luas drivers should just be happy with their lot and stop complaining.

        1. classter

          Are you genuinely arguing that I am wrong?

          The Luas is lower thus attracting less wind, more stable, has a dedicated track rather than sharing the road with vehicles of all types, runs on a fixed track, has sharper bends/turns, has a lower top speed…

          Is there a single way in which driving a Luas is more challenging?

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Are you genuinely arguing that I am wrong?”

            I’m saying you don’t know unless you have experience. So, is that a no to the question?

          2. classter

            ‘I’m saying you don’t know unless you have experience.’
            That is utter nonsense. By that token, we could consider almost nothing.

            There are simple, unambiguous technical reasons why driving an articulated truck is more difficult than the Luas – and some of them are mentioned above.

            If you have anything to suggest otherwise, I’d be keen to hear more.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            Ok. So let’s say you’re right. How much more difficult is it? 10k a years worth? How do you come to your conclusion?

          4. classter

            Now you are onto an area I don;t have experience of – truck drivers’ wages. The internet suggests that truck drivers in irealnd get about 12.50e an hour, or somewhere in the region of 100e a day (a range of 80e – 120e).

            So a truck driver is gonna be finding it very difficult to match a Luas driver’s salary even now.

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