Daft rental report, published this morning
Anon writes:
On foot of the Daft Rental report being published this morning, there are again various representative bodies on the radio screaming for rent allowance to be increased.
I can tell you categorically that it has already been increased massively and this has undoubtedly had a knock-on effect on rental prices – it has driven them up even further. It has not in any way reduced the number of people who are homeless or becoming homeless, how could it?
The most recent jump happened between Christmas and now, single people are now being approved for accommodation up to €800 per month, it was at around €750 before Christmas. The official limit for a single person renting on their own is €550 per month in Dublin.
For single people this is reaching a tipping point where single people with jobs who would like to live on their own cannot compete in the market with those on rent allowance.
Hmmm.
FIGHT!
Average rent passes €1,000 for first time since 2008 (RTE)
WOW. I can’t believe it’s that high!
What a joke.
Right, so if you’re unhappy with your extortionately high rent, you should blame poor people getting help to pay theirs. FFS.
That’s not what the article said. And rent allowance of 800 is hardly help.
Article? It’s a post on a blog from some anonymous bloke and it’s full of anecdotes and assertions. Does he explain how rent allowance is “undoubtedly” causing rent increases?
It is a factor, one of a few in rental prices.
Raising rent allowance pushes up the minimum price that landlords who don’t want rent allowance tenants charge for their properties.
You can fume over that if you like, it is kind of horrible after all, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
I’d say it’s a pretty negligible effect unless I see actual proof. Generally landlords who don’t want ‘riff raff’ just say ‘rent allowance not accepted’ on their ads.
no they don’t because it’s illegal now.
They say “professionals only” now. And ask for work and landlord references.
If nothing is done to address supply, increasing rent allowance will only increase the number of people chasing the same number of properties at the lower-end of the market, thereby pushing up rents for all properties in this category.
If. That’s an important word there. That if is the actual reason. Higher rent allowance is a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Rent controls..+ increase in supply
Cmere, what’s this lower-end of the market you mention? 1500 a month is lower end is it?
I think not enough has been done to increase supply.
If supply were increased sufficiently, rents would fall by themselves, without the need to resort to rent controls. Imagine how troublesome and expensive rent controls would be to enforce? (plus they would be open to abuse – if demand was high enough, landlords would be looking for backhanders over and above the rent control level).
Much easier to just zone large areas of dublin for high-rise; the market would then sort itself out.
“Imagine how troublesome and expensive rent controls would be to enforce?”
I don’t see how it’d be any more complicated than a tenant making a complaint and showing receipts as proof unless I’m missing something?
“plus they would be open to abuse”
Everything is open to abuse. You could use that logic to do away with social welfare entirely.
“Much easier to just zone large areas of dublin for high-rise;”
Because there’s so history of corruption when it comes to land rezoning?
I agree with that Rob..
But rent controls are also required.
Half the population of this country earn under 28k a year.
Peter McVerry was on Claire Byrne last night and he was saying that for anyone to buy a house in this country, you’d need to be earning 70k+ a year.
He said that doesn’t apply to – I think he said 70%, although he could said 80%.. I’ll have a look at the player. (it was a high percentage anyway)
So the majority of people in the country need to avail of housing at this ‘lower end of the market’ that you speak of..
“I don’t see how it’d be any more complicated than a tenant making a complaint and showing receipts as proof unless I’m missing something?”
– if a landlord was to charge illegal rents, they would insist on being paid in cash (e.g. no receipts)
“everything is open to abuse” – that’s true, I suppose
“Because there’s so history of corruption when it comes to land rezoning?”
– do you propose that we should not rezone any land due to it being sometimes linked to corruption? That would be like proposing to abolish the dole because some people fiddle social welfare, to use your analogy? How else do you propose to increase the supply of properties to rent if not by zoning more land?
“if a landlord was to charge illegal rents, they would insist on being paid in cash (e.g. no receipts)”
OK. Are there any studies from cities wiry rent controls that show this happening on a large enough scale for it to be a significant problem?
“that’s true, I suppose”
So do you see how the potential for abuse isn’t much of a reason to not bring in controls?
“do you propose that we should not rezone any land due to it being sometimes linked to corruption?”
I’m just pointing out how you’re against rent controls because of the potential for low level corruption but you’re in favour of a something with an actual high profile history of corruption.
Here’s an article on some of the pitfalls of rent controls in Stockholm – http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/19/why-stockholm-housing-rules-rent-control-flat
– given how frequently you (often accurately) lambast the various levels of Irish governance for corruption, graft, etc, I am surprised to see that you would be so willing to provide them with another avenue that would lend itself well to corruption.
The introduction of rent controls would require a govt agency on a similar scale of Irish Water to police it, and would do nothing to address the problem of lack of supply (and would in fact probably make it worse); zoning additional land for development would require minimal government intervention or financial outlay.
Rent controls work well in lots of European countries –
http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/07/berlins-brand-new-rent-control-laws-are-already-working/398087/
Also, France, Holland, Switzerland..
@ Anne
– I’m not suggesting that rent controls have no effect on reducing rents; merely suggesting that there are simpler, most cost-effective ways to produce the same effect.
Ok that’s fair enough Rob….
Wasn’t discriminating against rent allowance recipients recently outlawed? We can’t be saying why bother doing the right thing, as we can’t enforce it..
There are other ways to increase the effectiveness of any particular scheme too.. A carrot approach to rent controls so they’ll be adhered to, rather than the stick.. tax incentives or whatnot.
They work well in lots of European cities. Our government do not care about the Irish people though.. it must be a great incentive for the vultures.. Come to Ireland, we’ll give ye massive discounts, won’t tax ye on the rental income, and ye can charge whatever rents ye like.
If rent allowance doesn’t increase what will these people do instead of “chasing properties”? Be homeless?
Raising all rent allowances when the majority of rent allowance users are not at risk* of losing a home drives up rents for all.
* Morning Ireland earlier
Wow.. I take it that they’ve never heard of rent allowance recipients renting privately where their landlord is in difficulty and a receiver is appointed to boot them out onto the streets. That’s the usual crap to be expected from RTE …
Dunno how you got that from that. Is that like string theory and some sort quantum connections? I don’t see how the point above could be assumed to not include that which you’ve made a point of…..
Rent control is needed rapidly. Government have no strategic plan around housing, planning or social amenity. This will all get outta hand again and what people end up paying now in exorbitant rents will all be swallowed in private profit yet consolidated with public debt once again as soon as le merde hits the fan when it all goes diddy’s in 10/15/20 years again.
Rent control is very very bad thing, why should I not be allowed charge what I like for my PRIVATE property I OWN. Also It let’s the government off, why build more social houses when they can just Cap rents.
I own two properties which I rent out. I could be taking an extra 400 a month but I am not a greedy selfish person so I rent at a reasonable level and get decent long term tenants who don’t resent me. They also have a better shot at saving for their own house.
I and they sleep better at night.
Fair play to you. Wish there were more like you.
Nice man, nice.
You are tops
And I’m sure they keep the place neat and tidy and get on with simple repairs themselves. Good landlords breed good tenants.
Hahahahaha yeah right.
I got given out to in work the other week for not charging top market rents. when I pointed out that I’ve got a good tenant who pays on time and never gives me any hassle I was told he could be a drug dealer for all I know.
Lol
Where do you work Lorcan?
In his head.
Because control creates stability. Nobody really wants to take the hits that they did form 2008 onwards. Rent controls before the crash would have slowed the investment property bubble and ultimately the building boom we ended up with (along with lots of other measures obviously) I’m not advocating communistically crazy economics but at the same time big gains are usually short term and they certainly do not benefit society at large long term.
The market can change…. just like when taxis were deregulated. It’s a business, and the market can change. And if the changes in the market mean a business can’t operate then maybe that business should cut losses and get out.
Seriously, rents are at the same as 2007 and the country is no where near a position as it was back then. If landlords can’t turn a profit now, when the hell are they going to… when it hits €2k a month for a bedsit?
If a landlord cannot make money over the past few years then they shouldn’t be landlords and get out. Prices are too high, and need to come down. When a market runs out of control it must be regulated – technically, there is no such thing as a totally free capitalist market, anywhere in the world. So moaning about regulations now is only a moan about more regulations, as opposed to moving from a free market to a regulated one, there’s always been regulations, only they’ve been in favour of landlords up until now. Time for them to get a bit too…. or get out.
I would like to +1 this. Well put.
That’s all well and good when you’re talking about luxury items or non necessities but a house isn’t just an investment, its a home. If the state is responsible for homing folks then ultimately we end up paying. Why complicate the issue.
Example A) No Rent Controls: Rents go up, property prices go up, state (us/our tax dollars) has to pay more to buy or rent properties. Market over heats, state has to bail out banks etc et al, state now has to home more people who no longer have jobs because the wonderful market has collapsed as it is not capable of self regulating and sustaining employment to allow people pay for rent.
Example B) Rent Controls: None of the above.
First para lost me…. >_<
I get the examples tho ! :)
On rent controls –
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2015/11/02/why-we-need-rent-controls
‘It appears to be an article of faith amongst the mainstream that rent controls are a “bad thing”. The last time we had such conformity or groupthink, we had the soft landing brigade reassure the country that “everything would be grand” and their models said so. Well in the end we weren’t so grand, were we?
The housing “breakdown” is a chaotic intersection of planning, credit, demographics, psychology, advertising, fear and loathing, the need for accommodation, hoarding, sub-letting, banks, auctioneers, and of course punters – renters and landlords both big and one-off.
And the referee is never impartial. We have policy, not just housing policy but political bias and ideology, with one shower preferring to side with landlords and the other shower with tenants – as if the interests of one are at odds with the interests of the other when in fact, they are symbiotic.
Into this mix we have all sorts of incentives, tax nudges and policy shoves which have led to a housing status quo..
There seems to be a lot of ideology involved in this debate. The mainstream economics profession and the property/landlord lobby appear to argue that we shouldn’t introduce rent controls because it interferes with the “free market” or the status quo. But this is silly because the market isn’t free; it is rigged at every stage and the “status quo” doesn’t deliver stability but delivers massive instability.
Copied and pasted from one David McWilliams
David Mcwilliams Who…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omo2i3iRc5k
Do you own it though or are your tenants buying it for you by paying your mortgage? Rent is too high and it prevents renters from being in a position to get their own mortgage. High rent increases inequality.
It used to be the case that if you had any job you could buy a house. Many landlords are of a generation that benefited from that and acquired assets that shot up in value. Now it is the case that a couple who are both working full time on minimum age with a child would never be able to afford their own home.
The government has only existed for about a week.
The Housing minister only existed for about a week.
How do you know what their plans are?
I know what their plans are: Summer Holidays.
No, single people working are not being pushed out of the market. Most places with rental tags of 900-1300 do not accept rent allowance.
So………your point… I don’t know what your point is? Are you annoyed you can’t get a penthouse apartment for 850 quid or something? Everyone is sh*teing on about the rent being too steep, I had a look out of curiosity this morning – 10 places in the region of Dublin I want to live in, all within my budget (small budget) and all very nice.
The point is that properties keep raising their rents so those on rent allowance can’t afford them.
Outskirts of Balbriggan?
So rather than addressing rent increases, you go with the divide and conquer technique. Seems legit.
+15%
I don’t know where Daft get their Cork figures but they’re not correctly showing the prices.
Cork needs to be broken into south east, city and to an extent the rest can be put together.
That would show a different picture.
You had me at Cork needs to be broken …..
Nah its not funny is it? *Punches own face*
Ah you’re only jealous that Dublin got a break out diagram.
Ha!
They take the infor from the prices advertised on their site, daft.ie.
OP, where’s your proof?
The DSP says it is current RentSupplement ceiling levels +15% and the HousingAssistancePayment ceiling +50% for homeless households.
Ridiculous doesn’t even begin to describe the situation.
I’ve got two places in Grand Canal Dock up for rent at the moment. Just back now from a viewing an hour ago. A dopey couple showed up, dressed up hoping to impress (in a cheap M&S suit unfortunately and crap shoes), all smiles, ooohhhhing and ahhhhhing at every turn. Then turn to me and say, “Love it! It’s, eh, just a bit out of our budget, though…we’d like to offer you €1500”.
Obviously if I wanted to rent it for €1500, I would have advertised it for €1500. Wasting my time. Effing dopes. I don’t show up at Louis Copeland, try on a suit, get everyone involved, and then announce that I can’t afford it. If I did, they would rightly show me the door. Crisis in the housing sector??? What about the effing crisis in the education sector? Turning out first-rate FOOLS. And if you’re reading this, Cian and Orla, yes, I’m talking about you.
That’s some first rate trolling – well done you!
and let me guess, it’s a one-bed you’re charging more than €1500 for.
Yes. Two 1-beds – one at €1850, the other (slightly larger) at €1950. Not interested in negotiating – in fact, I’m actually hoping/expecting a little more. I assure you, though, good value for money. I’m not pretending i’m giving them away for a bargain, but i’m not cheating anyone either.
They must have gold plated jax or something for that much
No, not gold plated – but, yes, they are high end (GROHE). Check Daft and you’ll see the rent I’m asking is actually pretty standard. IN fact, adjoining unit is charged by the week at €900. I think that’s excessive and frankly wouldn’t stoop that low.
Whats da’
grohe
some sort of clean air filtration underfloor heating and vacuming?
Does it have a Quooker?
Id love one’a them here
Anyone here got a Quooker?
No. You’re not cheating anyone. But it is not good value for money. Just because it’s a going rate / just below / above does not make some thing ‘good value for money’.
I’m not a rich kid. I invested every penny of my inheritance plus borrowed to purchase three investment properties. Why wouldn’t I work them for a good return? It’s the only income I actually have.
“It’s the only income I actually have.”
Get a job you bum.
Thanks for you concern. I have a job. I’m a professional landlord.
professional jerk
Well SPANX, you work away with it. If you are struggling to make ends meet at the current rates, you are a failing business. If not and you can continue when they come down, then good for you.
But again, if not, then tough, markets change. You could always sell and do something else.
I’m not struggling. I’m doing fine. But a good businessman makes hay while the sun shines. And right now landlords are in the driving seat. It was the opposite three years ago – I was getting €1100 a month for a property that I’m not asking €1950 (and I’ll get it – phone is hopping). SO, yes, all good – but everyone would like a couple of hundred extra no matter what they’re earning, wouldn’t they? I’m no different. The way I look at it – if I can squeeze another €100 per month out of a tenant, that’s a nice lunch out for me that I wouldn’t otherwise have had. Happy days!
It’s very telling that SPANX got his initial investment from inheritance. You’re a part of the problem, raising rents as high as you can get them
I might be interested in the larger one. Can you pass on the listing link? Had a quick look on Daft but couldn’t spot anything.
Thanks
Hrs claiming to be a male model further down the thread. He’s *obviously* taking the pish here.
I was well aware that he was taking the pish Moyest. Just wanted to see how far he’d go with his fairytale
“value for money” meaning the same as others are charging? This is basically price gouging. Well done, hope it all works out for you.
I hope they turn out to have pyrite.
You spin a good yarn Anne, A.K.A. SPANX, hilarious!!!!
Love to see your property portfolio…….
Excellent trolling there Spanx. Almost had me.
Did you bum ABM at any stage in the past?
“I don’t show up at Louis Copeland, try on a suit, get everyone involved, and then announce that I can’t afford it.”
No, but if you’ve a bit of cop on, you’ll work the sales person and get €50 knocked off it.
Trust me, mate, when I buy a suit, €50 is neither here nor there.
You can’t polish a turd though..
@ Anne
Someone told you last week that you’d turned out well -so you obviously can polish a turd
Talking about me?
That would be funny if I wasn’t a former male model. You’d be creaming your keks just at the sight of me, darling.
but you can roll it in glitter.
“You’d be creaming your keks just at the sight of me,”
I doubt it.. lol
“if I wasn’t a former male model.”
lo, they’re a dime a dozen on here petal.
Why would he make it up? I believe him. You begrudgers just can’t accept that somebody might have it all.
Fellow dreamboat here.
It’s not all great…I found a white hair today (just one). Remarked to my hairdresser Kris that I’m getting old. “If that’s old, bring it on!!!!” he replied. So I suppose I’ve still got it!
#doingitfortheboys+doingitforthegirls
Oh. You’ve ruined it now. Male model was a step too far.
@ SPANX / Anne
Your fairytale life is getting better by the minute – three rental properties AND a former male model????
Keep going, this escapism is something else…..
Did you ever consider writing childrens books in your ample spare time?
*takes a bow and departs stage left*
why do you need to wear spanx, Spanx??
I don’t. It’s just the last job I did. Here, see for yourself:
http://www.spanx.com/mens-shapewear/cotton-comfort-trunk-38-625#1689=9099
So, Anne, was I right or was I right?
Or a belt, tie or tailoring thrown in for free*
*lesson learnt from buying my first graduation suit with mum. Haven’t paid full price since!
Gibberish. My friends pay €1100 for a two BR in that location.
SPANX, my heart bleeds. You poor soul. It must be tough to make money by owning some stuff.
He know his hairdresser’s name. Great to see he still has time for the little people.
I think he just calls whoever is cutting his hair Kris.
Wooooaaahhh. Halt. When did I EVER express any disdain whatsoever for what you refer to as “the little people”? I’m not at all like that. I’m not some jonny Ronan property big balls. I said that I have 3 fairly modest rental properties. Nothing flash about it. I’m not a wealthy guy. I have a nice lifestyle, sure. But nothing too flashy. I’m driving a 2011 car and my own home is rented. I AM A TENANT TOO.
The difference between the rate of rent allowance increase (for some areas) and the rate of rent increases for those areas are not in sync… ergo there isn’t a knock on effect.
In areas where rent allowance limits were lowered, rents still increased – a lot.
Ergo,again NO knock on effect.
If it had a knock on effect, shur we could scrap rent allowance and rents would plummet.
Decrease in logic has a knock on effect on persuasiveness.
My main objection is more tax payers money going to landlords rather than rent control to stop them getting that expensive in the first place.
What about a tax rebate or tax allowance for renters? Help the people who are actually being directly affected by rent rises now? I can’t see any landlord passing on savings made through a drop in their tax rates.
The problem of years of underfunding social housing – effectively privatising the provision. Those who would normally avail of social housing are being forced into the private market (supplemented by Rent Allowance) to compete with those who would normally rent in this sector – pushing rents ever higher. No planning, no forward thinking, public money lining the pockets of private landlords. Another example of the utter ineptitude of this ‘republic’.
+1
+1 Yep!
I besh they woren’t even cheap bowt shews.
There has always been sneering contempt for renters in this country. An Irish petty snobbery associated with a time past where owning land meant you were respectable and renting meant you were a failure.
“oh, you’re renting?”
It’s a very unsophisticated view of life and unfortunately in Ireland, it’s those unsophisticated people who drive mediocrity into every sphere of Irish life.
Saved me countless 1000s over the last few years renting.
It’s probably easy enough to count.
I look at this and all I see is dead money! You’d be better off commuting in from Galway or something
I have to move shortly due to this (sorry for not being a 150,000p.a. hotshot, entirely my fault) so my commute is now going from and average of 35 mins to 90+mins, each way…looking forward to meeting all my new commuter friends, silver lining, and hair.
Revenue should scrutinise landlords, just a shot across the bows.
I heard they are cracking down on this. The LPT has provided them data to allow this.
And it’s leading to an increase in “period” pre-63 type properties coming onto the market.
Albeit I heard this from someone having a go at farmers who bought in D6/D8 in the 1970’s to hide money/assets from the Revenue. Having said that, there are a lot of Pre-63’s coming on the market although this might be driven by the minimum standards/removal of non-self-contained bedsits from the market.
As touched on above, the problem here is not rent allowance, it’s the lack of social housing being built. It would be far far better for the state to build houses/apartments and to provide them to tenets at a subsidized rate than to pay stupid amounts of money to private landlords for the privilege.
The state managed to build more social housing in the 1950s on a yearly basis than this decade, so ‘brokeness’ doesn’t seem to be a valid defense as to why the units aren’t being built – its a distinct policy decision being made in government.
A rather useful fringe benefit would also be reducing unemployment through hiring builders etc, too.
I read elsewhere that Peter McVerry is clamoring for the state to start building estates on DCC land. Sell 50% to the private sector and keep the other 50% for social. If recent events are anything to go by, they’d have no luck selling 50% to the private market – who’d buy in an estate where 50% would be social housing?
Rent controls offer protection not just to tenants but also to landlords too if albeit indirect. Rental controls ensure that rents are not sent spiralling out of control and thus beyond the means of the average working person. They also cool the jets of the property bubble stopping it from becoming over priced where people including buy to let landlords continue on creating a reasonable expectation. To the person above who said why should he not be allowed to charge what he wants, you are already subject to regulation in rent in terms of PRTB, Revenue, Social Welfare, Council standards but you just forgot to remember that. Daft.ie lets not forget would benefit from rising house prices, means more bang for their buck. The whole system needs a root and branch review…
more hatred from the civilwarshirts towards the poor and the weak of this nation
As a former male model. I retired when I fell off the catwalk at a Tom Ford show in Milan 2007. I took my hard earned cash as kick started the Gluten Free craze which eventually gained momentum and earned me more cash. Money earns money and if it wasn’t my get up and go and rather a substantial inheritance, I’d be in the same boat as some of you instead of sitting here typing on a gold plated iPad whilst being blown by members of the female chorus of the John Player Top’s of the Towns semi-final winners 1988.
I feel nothing but scorn for you all. :-)
1988 eh? Guzzling Grannies?
They must be getting on a bit now.
I suppose you can’t beat a bit of experience but watch out for the dentures around that thing.
I’d say the removable dentures is the tops!
Sorry I’m late, but here goes:
Not nationwide. Statewide, yes, but not nationwide.
Lets pretend that I don’t know what the difference is, which I obviously totally do, how would you explain the difference to me?
To be honest I was just gonna let it hang like a smell to see who’d come a sniffin for the heck of it. You’re the first on the scene.
What a joke Ireland is. Can we ask the Brits to come back and sort us out for Housing, Healthcare, functioning society?
They’ve made such a good fist of it here in the north east.
I’m confused. Don’t Broadsheet and Rabble readers hate developers and think they ruined the country along with bank officials and estate agents? Developers build houses.- why do you want them to do so again?