94 thoughts on “Break The Chain”

      1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

        +1 #especiallywhenalotofthewordsbeginwithvowelsunfortunatelyIcouldn’tthinkofanythatfittedthis

      1. Zuppy International

        Great.

        So now that we (you and I at least) admit abortion is murder, how do we proceed to allow a woman to murder her child with the least amount of consequence for her physically, emotionally, psychologically, socially and spiritually?

        Firstly, if we are to allow abortion on demand I think the service should be free and private. There should be no ‘privatisation’ of the abortion service and there should be no aftermarket for abortion ‘remains’.

        I have other concerns, but I’m interested in yours too, RobertasYourLGBTQParentsSibling.

        So let’s have the discussion before repealing the protection of life for the unborn. Because afterwards is too late.

  2. Daisy Chainsaw

    Lets be mature enough to have the 4000 Irish abortions carried out annually provided in Ireland. Stop the hypocrisy, stop the lies and start offering pregnant people all options including abortion here.

    1. The Real Jane

      Let’s not go down the road of calling women who are pregnant “pregnant people”. It obscures the fact that the reason abortion is really so abhorrent to so many is because it involves women controlling their own fertility. I am pretty sure that if any random person could get pregnant it would not be this kind of an issue.

        1. The Real Jane

          Yes, I very much doubt that if pregnancy was a general issue rather than one that affected women, people would suffer the indignity of having to go abroad for simple medical treatment. I cannot think of a single medical procedure undergone by a substantial minority of men to which there is no access in this country.

      2. Daisy Chainsaw

        There are people who don’t identify as female but who can still get pregnant. It’s a terminology that’s been used by many prochoice groups.

        1. The Real Jane

          So I gather. I will, however, persist in describing the collective group of people who can be/are/have been pregnant women and connecting the multiple ways in which women are discriminated against as related to having female biology. It’s of no benefit to women as a whole to disguise the fact that having female biology and men’s wish to control female reproductive labour is the cause of female oppression and I will not use any language that obscures that, regardless of what any other person or group maintains.

          1. Tony

            Men’s wish to control female reproductive labour is the cause of female oppression..

            Nutbags. That is all.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            No problem. We’re on the same side here and I don’t want to see the topic derailed over our semantics.

            I agree that at it’s base, anti choice is about controlling women. It’s always women who’ve had to fight for equal rights. The right to not be given away in marriage, the right to not be raped by a husband, the right to legally leave that marriage. The right to work when married and to recieve equal pay for it. These rights didn’t happen back in the dark ages. As late as the 1970s a married woman had to give up work from the likes of the banks and the civil service..

            The last bastion of control is our bodily autonomy and the blocks are starting to come down but not quickly enough. If a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant and her contraception fails her, why should she be “punished” with a pregnancy?

            It’s not my business why any woman wants an abortion – Whether it’s physical or mental health issues, FFA, rape, or she just doesn’t want to be pregnant. I support her (and my) right to safe, legal abortion in this country.

          3. Question Egg

            if someone truly and honestly believes that abortion is murdering an unborn child, then are they not doing the right thing by campaigning against it, like any of us should protest against euthanasia of physically or mentally handicapped people?

          4. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            I understand why you do that Jane refusing to take on board what other groups maintain is exactly what those you oppose do.
            Though I guess arguing about semantics is entirely different than refusing women abortions, so it’s not an important point.

          6. Tony

            I think many are framing this argument to advance whatever loon bag cause they are having themselves. Some are just radical feminists, some are anti religious, some are gender fanatics and some actually care about the women involved. Therefore they are closing many others out of the cause. I reckon I fit the broadest category who would not deny the mother the right to chose, but who also have empathy with the destruction of a foetus/baby/clump of cells. Most would be reluctant supporters and these are the ones that the campaign should be aiming to convert. The radical man-hating approach will appeal to the converted, but it wont convert more.

          7. The Real Jane

            Well I just think that if lose the collective noun for people who get pregnant (women), we also lose the ability to discuss the implications. Take the example of education in Afghanistan. We can talk about the problems girls face in either of two ways.

            We could say that half of children in Afghanistan are strongly discouraged from education. This sounds like one problem that we might think of lots of different ways to tackle. However, if we also mention that this half are female, we understand that it’s actually a very specific problem related to their sex and the specific discrimination related to their sex. We have a better idea of how to deal with the problem in that case.

            I just worry that if we lose the ability to say that it’s women who get pregnant and women who suffer specific types of discrimination based on that (for example, we’re constantly told that the pay gap is due entirely to maternity), then we lose some of the ability to deal with why this happens. Whose wages start to decline after a certain point and never catch up? People’s? Yes, certainly. This could be due to multiple causes. Women’s? Clearer why now… We know that domestic violence against women often starts when women are pregnant or just after birth because of how vulnerable women are at that time. I want us to be able to name that very specifically.

            If we aren’t precise about who is discriminated against and why when it comes to abortion, we really make it far harder to explain what the issue really is, in my opinion.

            I know this is very long and I certainly don’t want to fall out with anyone over it, but I just wanted to clarify why I think this is important.

          9. rotide

            It’s always women who’ve had to fight for equal rights.

            You’re so caught up in your fervor that you didn’t even stop to think about that one did you?

            Idiocy.

          10. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Fervor.” Yes that silly woman was just getting emotional, wasn’t she rotar…I mean, rotide. You certainly don’t look like a spiteful, bitter moron in belittling her commentary like that.

          11. Daisy Chainsaw

            What’s there to think about, rotide? Women have had to fight for the type of equality and autonomy that men get simply by birth. No man will ever have to wait until the chance of death from an illness tips into 51% or more before the decision is made to allow treatment. A pregnant woman’s health is held secondary to the rights of the foetus. “Ethics” committees decide if a woman is cancerous enough to deserve an abortion in Ireland, rather than the woman herself deciding that her health and her life takes precidence over a zygote that’s a few into gestation. No man will ever be forced abroad for a procedure that’s outlawed here. Four thousand women a year are.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      If you know of people being killed, please call 999 and ask for the Gardai

      Acorns aren’t oak trees
      Fried eggs aren’t chicken dinners
      Zygotes aren’t people.

    4. kellma

      Well actually, it is an option. An option in many societies which results in a serious consequence, but an option nonetheless.
      Who is talking about “killing people” here anyway..

  5. Bob

    Yet the link has been allowed now. So either they’re really bad at censoring, or a simple bug stopped your post appearing (which happens all the time here).

    #AbortionIsntMurder

    1. Zuppy International

      Still not appearing where I originally posted it, which was in the flow of yesterdays debate. I’m also excluded from the flow of today’s debate because of ‘moderation’ with no reason given. Broadsheet is now a bastion of smug Liberal Censorship, muting all opposition to their core beliefs.

      http://www.conservapedia.com/Liberal_censorship

      “Liberals inevitably demand censorship of ideas that challenge their views, and thus attempt to silence all criticism of their ideology by slandering conservatives and other opponents as ‘racist’ and ‘reactionary’, [and ‘misogynist’]”

  6. pedeyw

    Genuine question: Do you think women should be punished for acquiring abortions? I mean if you truly believe it’s murder then surely you believe that women who get abortions should be sentenced the same way someone found guilty of murder would be.

      1. Zuppy International

        I’m being moderated out of debate but you can check my reply to RobertasYourLGBTQParentsSibling (above) to see where I’m going with this.

        1. Nigel

          Wasn’t me, pal. I think your contribution to our exchanges do indeed embody every irritating, asinine,, unwelcome and stupid thing free speech was created to protect. You are the inner Soros-Nazi in all of us.

          Was this a fake moan of moderation?

        2. manonfire

          It was you Nigel,
          I posted that last clip and you posted a very upset reply which was deleted along with loads of related posts
          Straight after I was on the list

          U ran off to the moderators because u can’t fight your own corner

        3. manonfire

          And you dobbed in zuppy aswell

          Anytime Soros is mentioned you jump to his defence

          Pathetic whiney safe space toddler

    3. RobertasYourLGBTQParentsSiblingRelative

      actually it’s because your posts are uniformly boring, offensive and reactionary

  10. Clampers Outside!

    This is also an interesting view… same crowd, PragerU whom I believe would be anti-choice, but this is still worth watching, because we should all see both arghuements and never assume to be holding all the answers, because no one ever does.

    I’m pro-choice, but I don’t just switch off when the opposition speak genuinely, which I believe this video does…. And hey, I’ve watched twice or more in the last few months and I’m still pro-choice. Watch it, sure what’s the harm in seeing all sides of the conversation…. besides this may ruffle a few feathers of the delicately minded, but this debate is no place for safe spaces or other anti-free speech bullpoo.

    Enjoy :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A

    5. Clampers Outside!

      I see none of ’em are willing to answer you, but only to take the mick… sad that, in fairness.

      As far as I can tell, and if women are honest about it, the answer would have to be ‘yes’.
      Yes, it is fair to say that of pro-life women / females / whatever they choose to want to be called as a respectable* term are out to control women / females and their reproductive rights / bodily autonomy.

      * – just note though, what one of them calls a respectful term, another may not.

      1. Starina

        i wasn’t taking the mick. antichoice women DO want to control women’s bodies. it’s called internalised misogyny.

    7. The Real Jane

      Of course. We have all been socialised into this society and there are plenty of women who accept the values of it – including that women are basically there to give birth and are secondary to any offspring they may have in terms of rights or priorities. I don’t think anyone will deny that.

      Similarly, I read some time ago (can’t remember where) that women have a tendency to be more religious than men despite the damage religion does to women and the appalling assumptions that underlie it from the perspective of women.

    8. pedeyw

      I think it is, yeah. If you think about it from the point of view of controlling someone else’s body and not allowing them to make their own choices it doesn’t really matter what gender is dong the controlling.

    9. ahjayzis

      Absolutely fair.

      In another context/issue, the anti marriage equality campaign was headed by two gay men who wanted to continue the status quo depriving gay people of certain civil rights and protections. If they were just personally against marriage they could just not get married, but they’d been convinced that if they had the ability to get married, it’d somehow hurt society in some way. A sick way to be thinking.

      When something’s counter-cultural you’ll always find people passionately fighting to disadvantage their own group or community.

  13. Cop On

    How many Irish people have been forced to emigrate because of the inequality in the Irish political economy? And we have to put up with this BS of a Repeal campaign? Tough being a millennial in Portobello isn’t it?

    1. The Real Jane

      Yes. It’s only a women’s health issue so it must be trivial. Come on guys, there are far more important things than stupid women.

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Ever been pregnant?
          Ever thrown up several times a day for weeks at a time, ending up in hospital on a drip because of being pregnant?
          Ever got diabetes from being pregnant?
          Ever been told your cancer treatment is less important than being pregnant?

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      “How many Irish people have been forced to emigrate because of the inequality in the Irish political economy?”

      Lots.

      “And we have to put up with this BS of a Repeal campaign?”

      Yes.

      “Tough being a millennial in Portobello isn’t it?”

      Possibly.

    3. pedeyw

      But this is directly connected to inequality in the Irish political economy. Middle/Upper class people can afford to go to London to get an abortion. If you’re on the dole or lower wage, it becomes a lot harder.

    5. Daisy Chainsaw

      The people who emigrated don’t have to worry about the Repeal campaign because abortion is available in the countries they went to.

  16. Peter Dempsey

    Perception may be one of controlling women’s bodies but for most on the pro life side, that is not the intention. Most have a moral objection to abortion (not necessarily viewing it as murder but just being uncomfortable with it). Ultimately we are all free to protest or object to stuff that doesn’t personally affect us. Finally there are repeated calls from pro choice people wondering why pro life zealots aren’t advocating the criminalisation of women who avail of abortions outside the state. Why? Given that many of us view abortion as “wrong” rather than murder, then what is there to be gained by preventing women from travelling or jailing them when they get back? The answer is nothing.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      If you’ve no problem with an Irish abortion in London, why do you have a problem with an Irish abortion in Dublin?

          1. Peter Dempsey

            RobertasYourLGBTQParentsSibling – yes, I do have a problem with Londoners’ aborting in Dublin.

            I am an Irish citizen so my vote extends to having a say about abortion in Ireland only.

            MoyestWithExcitement – I find it um, problematic*, that Irish people will go abroad to gave abortions but ultimately I can’t stop them.

            You could say it’s all about damage limitation, making the best of a bad lot etc

            *such a SJW word, but appropriate for this case.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            Damage limitation. Reminds me of newsjustin using words like brand awareness and market share the other day. It’s oddly sterile language for an anti abortionist. Your entire argument is based on emotional indignation and love for the unborn. You’re against abortion because the notion of killing human life is abhorrent to you….but if someone hops on a plane for 20 minutes to kill that human, you’re ‘Meh, damage limitation.’ Bit odd, no?

        3. Daisy Chainsaw

          So it’s geographical hypocrisy, Peter? You’re grand with 4000 Irish abortions a year once they don’t actually happen in Ireland?

  17. Peter Dempsey

    Moyest
    So, yes, I do think a woman risking her life by illegally importing and taking an abortion pill without medical supervision (as suggested by an ‘advice’ service) is different from a health care professional carrying out abortions as his or her main source of income.

    And you, of course, are free to argue that they are exactly the same thing.

  18. Peter Dempsey

    Look, we’ve been over this ground before. My concern is not to criminalise or punish anyone. We have a situation where abortion, while mostly illegal in Ireland, has become culturally acceptable in many circumstances.

    From a human rights standpoint, my desire is to see the weakest and most oppressed protected. The current law, while not perfect in its interpretation, does that to some measure. The priority should be to protect life, not to exact retribution.

    Therefore I support the retention of the 8th Amendment. I support the right of each child, irrespective of gender, race or disability, to be born.

    I would also hope that, as a nation, we can celebrate this human rights approach more, so that we develop more of a culture of life. That would include much better support for mothers, much more investment in services to the disabled, more proactive measures to reduce the incidence of rape, better sex education and easier access to contraception, and a greater commitment to tackle poverty.

    Human rights issues, particularly when they are reinforced by culture, demand a multi-faceted approach. Shouting for people to be punished rarely solves anything. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit with your perception of how pro-life people should think – but surely you agree we should interact with reality rather than stereotypes and strawmen?

    1. Starina

      ah now that’s contraception not abortion, and can be had here. you’re not technically preggers til the zygote implants in the lining.

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