This morning.
Leaders’ Questions, Leinster House.
People Before Profit/AntiAusterity Alliance TD Bríd Smith challenges the government’s response to pay restoration and takes issue with John Moran, former secretary general at the Department of Finance, who this morning claimed public service union demands were a “dangerous challenge coming from a minority”.
FIGHT!
Public service pay demands are ‘dangerous challenge’ – John Moran (RTÉ)
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I love the way they keep saying restoration of pay. It makes it sound like we’re all looking 2007 levels to be restored. We’re looking for a pay increase or maybe just get rid of the public sector levy that is the pension levy. All my friends work in the private sector and have all had pay rises in the last few years.
They can also enjoy the privilege of a 100% pay cut at any time, unlike public servants.
That old chestnut, I know nobody who has had a 100% pay cut, in fact its never happened. Now if you mean loss your job or be sacked then yes than can happen. But generally you don’t get sacked for nothing, the recession times where a total shitstorm I know, we’re not in a recessionary times now. But your thoughts seem to be “so what if I earn more than you and get pay rises. Your public sector so fupp you”.
That’s about the size of it, I’d say.
Good for. So when your sick and a nurse is caring for you I suppose you’ll tell her to fupp off because you want your private nurse not paid by the state.
I support a level of sound social and health provision but I don’t support feather beds for bureaucrats. There are shows about cops, firefighters and nurses but it will be the proverbial cold one in Hell before Netflix commissions Clerical Officer: The Series.
The third season of the Fall was pretty much exactly that…
Hah! Gillian Anderson wasn’t enough to get me past the first series but thanks for the tip, Ahj.
As long as we’re running a substantial deficit and borrowing to cover our monthly expenditure, I’d say we’re not yet out of trouble.
We’ve always had them things.
We weren’t always borrowing 13 million Euro per day and didn’t always have a national debt of 200 billion Euro. So you know maybe, just maybe, these things should be taken into account. Maybe.
Geez, I hope it’s not the Dept of Finance that you work in, Anomanomanom.
We would not be as fupped as we are if I was.
” Now if you mean loss your job or be sacked then yes than can happen.”
– Unless you work in public service…
No can that happen. Im 10 years in this place and people have been sacked
wowee zowee, sounds positively cut-throat, sackings within 10 years…
The point is, people are routinely fired for not being good at their jobs in private sector. Or being made redundant if their job doesn’t exist any more. This happens with much less frequency in the PS, so one must consider security of the perks of working in the PS. Which can be offset against the negative aspects (like the pension levy).
People have this thing of lumping civil servants,public sector I know, and actual front line staff together. You all actual believe these made up stories of gold plated pensions and huge salaries. Only true for the higher ups.
@Anomanom: while I know the arrangements are very generous indeed for senior staff, the sums on offer lower down the totem pole aren’t Scotch mist either – see the extract from the CS Pensions website. At the same time, I appreciate that there are plenty of diligent folks working in various departments of state who are finding the going hard.
You can easily lose your job for nothing, or at least nothing you can help. Redundancies and business closures happen all the time and everyone gets laid off.
When more efficient systems are implemented in the public sector no one gets the chop. You just need to look at any government department to see huge numbers of civil servants with sweet FA to do getting paid to lounge around.
I think people need to differentiate between the public service and civil service a bit more. Teachers, nurses, guards etc. have their arguments. It’s the number of dead weight civil service admin that needs a shake up. People who had their job replaced by a computer in the early 90s or at the dawn of the internet still floating around doing nothing.
100% agree. Well to many pencil pushers doing nothing.
Good thing platinum plated defined benefit pensions are free and everyone has one or your wanting to be treated like private sector workers would look like being cynically disingenuous.
We all pay for our pension. Its not free. And if you knew fuck all about the public sector pension you would know 1000s of us would much rather not be in the pension, its not a good pension unless your top brass, yet we’re forced into it. Or how about the fact staff who had the option not join the pension, so have no pension, still have to pay the pension levy.
“We all pay for our pension. Its not free.”
– the contributions you make do not cover the full cost.
“… its not a good pension”
– its a defined benefit pension; significantly more secure than a private pension.
“…yet we’re forced into it.”
– come join the private sector part; you will see how well you have things then.
That’s the point. If you want to be a teacher, a nurse, a doctor, you can’t join the private sector.
BTW I’m not a public sector worker. Just before you tell me to fupp off.
(I’m pretty sure that you can work in the private sector in the case of all of those jobs)
The point I am making is that people in the PS often complain about their conditions; however, if they were looking for a similar job in the private sector, they might find that, while the job is slightly better paid (possibly), it might not have as favourable conditions as a PS job.
Hence why people who work in the private sector might occasionally find such complaints tiresome: there are no barriers to entry to working in the private sector, they are welcome to join the party whenever they choose.
Well if its such a fantastic pension and its costing the state so much maybe they should allow me to opt out, my 250 a month would be better served with me investing it how I see fit.
If it something that really annoys you – you always have the option of finding a new job without a pension levy.
If you like your job apart from the whole pension levy thing – unfortunately, it’s part of the pay and conditions, and you have to suck it up.
That’s life, rough with the smooth, etc.
Its the complete morons who have made up figures in their heads regarding the pension amount that annoys me.
Come join the public sector, Rob. See how well we have things!
@ Daisy – if I found a position in the area that I work in, I would certainly consider it.
Index-linked half pay for life? To say nothing of the infamous gratuity? Cry me a river.
This “Index-linked half pay for life” assumes that you worked a full 40 years.
True enough, Cian, but 40 years in the average Government department is hardly sweated labour. Also, I believe you used to be able to ‘buy your service’ which would cover the late vocationers and habitual career-breakers.
That old myth. I can tell you know its nothing near half salary for life. Where do you pull this crap from
@Cian
Everyone has to work 40+ years; the difference is that most people outside the PS don’t get an index-linked pension based on their final salary at the end of it.
@Anomanom: from people who joined the civil service before April 1995.
From the CS Pensions website:
As indicated above, part years of service are reckoned on a pro-rata basis.
Example: A HEO on a salary of €44,029 retires from the Civil Service at age 65 after 35 years service.
Pension = €44,029 * 1/80 * 35 = €19,262.69
Lump Sum = €44,029 * 3/80ths * 35 = €57,788.06
So, I guess 40 years puts the pension closer to the full 50% – you accuse me of pulling crap?
Thats civil service pension. I suppose you think all public sector workers are equally paid and have equal pensions no matter what the position the work in.
@Neilo
“Example: A HEO on a salary of €44,029 retires from the Civil Service at age 65 after 35 years service.
Pension = €44,029 * 1/80 * 35 = €19,262.69 ”
If you remove the State Pension (Contributory) of 12K (which your equivalent non-CS person would also have earned) the actual CS pension is about €7,000;
And they pay about 7% in pension levy for this.
Thank you, I was waiting for another smart arse answer from some one before I explained my pension is also made up of the state pension. Its never mentioned when people start throwing around comments about public sector workers.
@Cian: that figure I supplied was based on pre-1995. Apologies if I was incorrect but I don’t believe pre-1995 pay into a state contributory pension?
See above comment. I was going to wait but he got there a head of me. So you actually are talking poo regarding the pension.
I mentioned that I was basing it on pre-1995 civil service pensions. Crap – Smart arse – poo – idiot: you might want to add civility and a more expansive vocabulary to your depleted arsenal of rhetorical weapons.
*WE* do all pay. The real pension levy is called income tax – it’s an unfunded defined benefit scheme paid out from current revenue, the pension levy covers nowhere near the cost. There’s nothing approaching it for the vast majority of society, defined benefit pensions for all intents and purposes are extinct outside the public sector.
And I don’t begrudge it, the public service shouldn’t be dragged down to the level of the private sector, but I do feel some of the money mooted for pay rises (restoration isn’t an actual thing, you either get a raise or a cut) should be used to give some security to the private sector workers who have none – bring them up instead of bringing the public sector down.
Also let’s put the ASTI on the list of proscribed organisations.
Not to mention the long-time part-time staff who go full-time for the last year before retirement as the pension is based on the final year’s salary. I don’t think €250 a month would go anywhere NEAR funding your DB pension with gratuity.
Haha you actually believe that.
aw dedly cumbak hun u naild it hun xxx
I personally know people who have done it
Well your talking poo, its not based on your final year. Sick leave, missed days, un paid leave all count against your pension. It is not based on your final year FACT.
Zing!
To be fair, I’d like my pay to be at least where it was TEN EFFING YEARS AGO
Wouldn’t we all.
This is one the things I don’t understand: if the pay is that bad, surely you might consider getting a job somewhere else?
Genuine question, not having a go.
I love my job. I actually like working with patient’s and the people that come and go in my place of work. And iv said many times here before my pay is not bad, its what some idiots on here seem to think it is, but of course if I think I could get a slight pay rise in my current job I’d happily go along and accept. People seem to think we’re talking 1000s a year, we are not.
*its not what some idiots on here seem to think it is*
I think that this is the crux of the issue: you are relatively well-paid, but seem to want a pay rise for the sake of it – one not necessarily related to a corresponding increase in responsibilities(?)
Thing like this don’t really happen outside of the PS…
+1
“Restoration”? Why not just cut to the chase and restore Bertie Aherne, 15% unemployment and the troika right now?
I really wish people would take the time to use “your” and “you’re” correctly.
your right we shud all yous words spelt rite so u can enjoy reading them.
If a comment comes from someone who lacks the intelligence to distinguish between your and you’re then why should anyone take that comment seriously? Are we supposed to believe they have a grasp of complicated issues when they happily demonstrate that they can’t even manage something that simple?
Ur right u r.
Anomanomanom – the amount of time you spend on here defending the public service is a good indication of how much work you have to do in that job.
Yeah of course, all us public sector serfs work 24hr 7 days a week.
Btw, kudos on the headline, Broadsheet.
Calling union demands for 4% “dangerous” is not helpful.
The value of pay has eroded so just trying to keep up with costs of living is a challenge.
There is a point that any additional cash is used to provide services for citizens rather than pay rise to maintain exiting service levels.
Govt are not using existing industrial relations mechanisms to manage talks about restoring pay.
The CPI is below what it was in mid 2013… Pay is only being “eroded” by a shortage-driven housing cost push and even that is pretty much cancelled out by falling costs elsewhere.
Free money for the public service….yeah.
High taxes for everyone else….yeah
Crappy services……….yeah
If you are young, with good prospects you should leave Ireland for anywhere else.
Ireland is no place for young people without a cushy state job.
Do you want to be taken care of by an underpaid, over-worked, demoralized nurse?
You get better service when the frontline staff aren’t absolutely miserable all the time.
Yeah, god love them and their 39 hour working week.
But sure lets throw money at them……..that will somehow make them not “over-worked”…..
They are no different to anyone else. They’re priority is more money. All the nonsense about working conditions is fluff to detract from their core “want”. If you offered them more nurses do you think they’d accept it lieu of pay rises?
I guarantee you not many nurses do a 39hour week. And just you know most nurses do the job because they love being nurses. I will say honestly though that I have met some older ones who are just there now waiting for retirement. But most deserve a pay rise, they put up with complete shit.
Do you think there’s a special rate of income tax for those of us in the PS? I pay income tax, PRSI which gets me no benefits unless I die, so no benefit whatsoever to me, USC and a pension levy. Have you registered with http://www.publicjobs.ie to get one of these cushy state jobs with free money?
Everyone pays all of those taxes, with the exception of the pension levy. Which, as been pointed above, actually pays you back more money in the long-term.
It doesn’t pay it back. The levy is just tax. We dont get any of it back.
You get, in return for your pension levy, a pension worth significantly more than what you contributed for same.
Explain how. I get the same pension I did before the levy and the levy does not contribute anything towards the pension.
Before, your index-linked pension was funded completely by the taxpayer. Now, the taxpayer only funds part of it.
No it was not. I never had a free pension.
In the end, it boils down to:
– on balance, do you enjoy your job, and are you satisfied with the pay and conditions on offer.
Yes? Great, stay in your job.
No? That is a pity; look for a new job.
Or strike and get a rise.
“No it was not. I never had a free pension.”
– fair enough; but nor have you ever paid the full cost of your pension
“Or strike and get a rise.”
– Which has to be paid for by taxpayers – most of whom don’t have the job security that you have, nor the guaranteed pension.
What free money……id like some.
High taxes for everyone else…. I guarantee I pay a much much higher percentage of my wages than you.
Crappy services… I agree, but iv never defended how the services are run, the higher ups are a joke.
Saying that I genuinely understand why young educated irish people feel like they have leave.