“Once again, we have been unable to support leaving the European Union in an orderly fashion.”
Theresa May speaks after Parliament rejects the Brexit deal for a third time https://t.co/cqM70ibaQi pic.twitter.com/bB1czkFFYc
— Bloomberg (@business) March 29, 2019
Jeremy Corbyn calls for Theresa May to stand down and for a general election to be held if there are not substantial changes to her deal
Follow live reactions to the latest defeat here: https://t.co/Q7j5yxJC2w pic.twitter.com/UAaMU6yJAP
— Sky News (@SkyNews) March 29, 2019
.@theresa_may loses her Withdrawal Agreement by 286 to 344. Now backbench MPs have to take control of Brexit or it’s no-deal Brexit on 12 April, just two weeks from now.
— Robert Peston (@Peston) March 29, 2019
This afternoon.
British MPs reject May’s Withdrawal Agreement from EU (RTÉ)
Brexiteers voted against Brexit. Its a few days early for April the first.
In fact, that mess over there has managed to vote against every possible outcome.
What happens now?
They’ll kick the can till a tax exclusion is reached for the City of London.
The…..the……the…… Backstop. The ‘Cast Iron and Bulletproof’ one. Along with the WA. Seemingly both exist.
The Backstop is part of the WA which is what has been voted on 3 times so far. Pretty good going for something you don’t believe exists.
But they are proposals only. So an agreement or backstop don’t exist.
If you for instance propose marriage to someone, are you saying then that the marriage exists? You’ll discuss it many times before it either happens or doesn’t. But until you sign on the dotted line, the marriage doesn’t exist.
They’re not proposals. There is a difference between not existing and not yet being in force.
The Backstop is an agreed condition of any withdrawal agreement between the UK and EU which both parties have signed up to.
The Withdrawal Agreement is an agreement between the EU and the UK which both the EU commission and the UK Cabinet have approved.
It is a draft. The proposal has to be ratified by the UK Parliament before it can become an actual agreement. We can see that the proposal has failed to be ratified. Therefore it (an agreement) does not exist.
You can download it here which is a good trick for something that you say doesn’t exist.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en
It clearly states it’s a proposal Bertie.
Negotiation documents. Draft. Proposal. Must be ratified by the UK parliament.
A document exists. A Withdrawal Agreement doesn’t. No trickery in that. Show me the ‘ratified by the UK Parliment’ Agreement, and I’ll desist. Until that is shown (and I’m not saying it won’t be in the future) there is no Withdrawal Agreement.
Progress! You accept that a document exists! Now, what’s the document called?
Progress is correct. You finally accept that all that exists is a document. Next step you’ll agree it’s a draft. A proposal. And finally that, at the moment, no withdrawal agreement (therefore no backstop) exists. Keep the links coming.
You seem to have missed the question. What’s the document called?
Its an unratified proposal as part of the draft withdrawal agreement.
I am of course referring to this document, just in case there was any confusion.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration-official-journal-european-union-19-february-2019_en
Yes, that’s the draft withdrawal agreement. The backstop is a proposal. Has it been ratified by the English?
You can see the document? So the document exists?
It was ratified by the EU commission and the UK cabinet. I believe many of the UK cabinet are English.
The backstop is a condition, not a proposal.
Show me where the backstop is set out and agreed in that document?
After Chapter 7, Title IV the Protocols start. The first Protocol is the Protocol on Ireland/Notrthern Ireland which states “the Joint Report from the negotiators of the European Union and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 TEU on the United Kingdom’s orderly withdrawal from the European Union of 8 December 2017 outlines three different scenarios for protecting North-South cooperation and avoiding a hard border, but that this Protocol is based on the third scenario of maintaining full alignment with those rules of the Union’s internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement, to apply unless and until an alternative arrangement implementing another scenario is agreed,”
I’m beginning to think you asked that question without doing the reading first.
Protocol. Definition – “the original draft of a diplomatic document“.
(see the word ‘draft’?)
You’ve now gone from saying that a Withdrawal Agreement exists, to saying ‘A Document exists’.
You missed the question again. What’s the document called?
The question is whether a withdrawal agreement and backstop exist. Not whether a draft of a document about a proposed WA or Proposed Backstop exists.
a) no one disputes a draft document exists.
b) you seem to be the only one that disputes the fact that the WA and Backstop don’t exist.
Can you not see the difference between proposal and ratification?
The proposed WA has not been ratified by the British Parliment. Hence May is probably going to return for a fourth time to try have it ratified.
The WA has been approved by the EU Commission and the UK cabinet yet you don’t think it exists.
So, what’s the document called?
The document is called the draft withdrawal agreement Bertie..
You’re not actually answering his query, you have cited two documents that both state it’s a draft.
…great headline Bodger…prophetic even…
“The Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration, Official Journal of the European Union, 19 February 2019”
I don’t see the word “draft” anywhere there.
Here’s the title of the document on Eur-Lex: “Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community”
No “draft” there either.
Unless there’s something different showing up on the full site rather than mobile I don’t see where this document, ratified by the EU Commission and the UK cabinet, is labelled “draft”.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761153/EU_Exit_-_Legal_position_on_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf
Page 7. First paragraph.
“1. This document describes the overall legal effect of the draft Withdrawal Agreement of 25 November 2018 (‘the Agreement’). It considers each Part of the Agreement, together with the Protocols on Ireland/Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and the UK Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus, and describes the overall legal effect of the provisions”
That’s the legal UK Government view. Did you notice the word ‘Draft’ in there?
So, a document exists. A draft. Containing protocols. (protocol has been defined above – again a protocol is a draft of a diplomatic document)
Again – there’s no dispute that a document exists. The fact though is that the Wothdrawal Agreement, at the moment, does not exist.
And the document is called?
Talk about grasping at straws.
Pretty sure that’s not what it’s called.
Try again.
Leaving with no deal is becoming more likely. Tusk has called an emergency meeting.
The hubris of our government and our sneering, incompetent media class, will come back to bite them.
How did the hubris of the Irish government play any role in the mess created and enforced by the UK government? Literally every step has been their own doing.
Andrew is talking about the hubris of Westminster and the ‘sneering incompetent’ UK media class. He thinks this is a British based website.
He’s right about Westminster but dismissing the British ‘media class’ (whatever that is) out of hand is a bit childish
No, I’m talking about the hubris of the Irish government. Ireland could have made this a lot easier and should have acted more as a facilitator given our relationship with Britain. Instead we threw our lot in with people like Juncker and Tusk who will throw us under the bus.
We share a border with Britain, it’s a huge trading partner and we have so much in common culturally. We are risking an awful lot with the intransigence displayed already.
Varadkar et al have played this, diplomatically, very badly and quite bizarrely for FG have played to the nationalist gallery here.
La la Andrew..
Pity. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Ah well
You seem to forget that Ireland has, diplomatically, played a blinder with the other EU countries. You also have no understanding of what being an EU member entails. We could not be a third party in these negotiations. The negotiations were between the EU and the UK and the EU fought our corner and remains solidly behind us, despite repeated warnings from people who value the UK’s interests over Ireland’s, that we’d be thrown under the bus.
Here’s a lengthy but great read on it. Pour a drink.
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/
@ Reprobertie at no stage did I mention we get involved in bilateral negotiations so please don’t patronise me.
You disagree with my opinion, that’s fine, please keep it civil.
You suggested we act as a facilitator which is something we could not do as an EU27 member.
Let me know when they throw Ireland under the bus. I believe it was meant to happen before now.
This has been caused by the UK parliament and it will bite them harder.
This is a mess entirely of the UK’s making.
Tiocfaidh ár lá.
@Andrew
you do realise this is the Rep.of Ireland a separate sovereign state & not some county in England? What input exactly have we had (& had any business having) in the utterly mental current goings on at Westminster? If their political system keeps bluescreening how tf have we any hand in it one way or the other? If I were to rootcause it I can think of at least five possible causes & Ireland is nowhere in the scope. Get a grip man & point the finger elsewhere ‘cos you’re sounding like Iain Duncan Smith with that kind of nonsense.
Corybyn the snake. Laughing at him, he contributes nothing. He will never be PM
The blinkered uttering of a Tory boy
230 to 149 to 58.
A) She’s getting closer.
B) That’s a lot of MPs changing their minds but not willing to countenance the British electorate having done the same.
Parliament gets to vote repeatedly, but the people do not get a 2nd vote on Brexit. British politics is dead. They are morons.
This is what happens when your constitution is made of post it notes.
The UK doesn’t have a constitution
They do. Just not a written or codified one. It’s quite messy.
In other words, they don’t have one.
I know. How about they bring in some lovely, jolly old 19th Century pistols and have a game of Russian Roulette with the entire Parliament. “Come on now, everybody put their lips around the barrel of the gun, and fire. Let’s take our chances, whoever is left gets to run the country. Remember the spirit of Churchill!”
Never mind. Remember the old Albright ad from years ago?
We declare this extension open
We declare this extension on the extension open
We declare etc etc
Because the 27 will look kindly on the UK – at least that’s today’s sound bite from Vacron
100% guarantee brexit con will collapse.
So, her only option now with the EU is to seek a long extension and change her red lines, customs union etc. That sounds about right for the UK parliament, but what about the 17m who voted for Brexit three years ago. I was expecting civil disobedience, rioting, looting, road blocks, breakdown of law and order and a break-up of England. Are the Brexiteer voters such sheep?
That’s not her only option. They can revoke Article 50.
I walked into the Brexit march today .. very sad bunch.. very few of them.. one remarked as they passed a shop selling cuff links “now, that’s a proper English shop”…
They are an ugly looking bunch
Scotland will become independent soon and rejoin the EU
Norn iron too?
Who knows? Nobody really wants Norn Iron. They are a failed state on their own
Yep.. in a federal Ireland.. we’ll still make them pay for at least 50 years..
How many ways can you play rock, paper, scissors?
So choices now are :-
1. General election = long extension and EU elections.
2. Referendum = long extension and EU elections.
3. General election AND referendum = long extension and EU elections.
4. Revoke = EU elections.
Looks like EU elections in UK are going to happen any which way. Not sure if that is the cat among the pigeons or the pigeons getting organised and killing the cat.