91 thoughts on “Saturday’s Papers

  1. Fintan Frobisher

    Mirror/Guardian Cummings exclusive will dominate the UK news this weekend.
    Cracking scoop.

    1. MaryLou's ArmaLite

      ohh wow, Durham. He couldn’t have gone any further from London and remained in England…and he brought the family, and the virus…to his parents. Sure why not?

      1. Fintan Frobisher

        According to reports both he and his wife were suffering from C-19, they self-isolated in a separate house on the family farm to enable his sister to look after their 4-year-old child.
        They were not in contact with the grand-parents .
        Police investigated but found no evidence of wrongdoing.
        Downing Street aware throughout where he was.
        Cummings will front this one out.

        1. millie in handcuffs

          So it was a case of do as I say, not as I do?

          Was he somehow exempt from the travel restrictions in some specific way?

          1. Nigel

            Nah, what Salmon likes about these guys, and what is their basic underlying political philosophy, is their capacity to blatantly get away with stuff. Anyone subject to accountability, conscience or consistency is a sucker.

          2. realPolithicks

            Its one rule for the rich and powerful and another for the rest of us plebs.

        2. delacaravanio

          “ According to reports…”

          What reports? Was it Laura Kunigsberg or Preston? The man is a spin doctor fighting for his political life. Of course he’s going to leak some BS to pliable journalists.

          Soon the dead cat will thrown on the table in an attempt to move on the news cycle. But this story is too big and too “on topic” to go away. All that is in the news is Covid and the absolute fu*k up Johnson and Cummings have made of the situation. There will be questions in parliament. He will have to go.

          1. V'ness

            He’s going nowhere
            Unless it’s under his own steam

            Same as the other fella

            80 seat majority
            That’s barely six months old

            They’re going to ride that out ’till they’re bored
            Or their laziness gets the better of them
            Or it threatens their own pockets

            It’ll have sweet Frilly Adams to do with Parliament or public opinion

          2. goldenbrown

            “He’s the UK version of Concannon”

            nope, you’re seriously overestimating Concannon there….Cummings is a AAA rated danger to everyone’s future, pure zabrak sith lord.

        3. scottser

          Using his kid as a political fig leaf is the worst of this. How do you drive 260 miles with a 4 year old and not need to stop? Who did he infect on the way? How can you not be in a tiny space like a car and not infect everyone in it?
          He’s a liar and a hypocrite, I can’t see him bullshitting his way out of this.

        4. ReproBertie

          “they self-isolated in a separate house on the family farm to enable his sister to look after their 4-year-old child.”


          So was Wakefield lying when she wrote this in her Spectator piece about having the virus?

          “Cedd, in his doctor’s uniform, administered Ribena with the grim insistence of a Broadmoor nurse, and this might be my only really useful advice for other double-COVID parents or single mothers with pre-schoolers: get out the doctor’s kit and make it your child’s job to take your temperature.”

          Or what about when Cummings wrote “Being with Mary in lockdown means I think I am talking all day and Mary thinks she’s starved of conversation. But I like listening to her and our four-year-old. They bicker like an old married couple and discuss what the birds are thinking.”

          Was he lying then or is he lying now?

  2. Formerly known as @ireland.com

    Britain introduces a 14 day quarantine, starting June 8th. Israel did it on March 9th. they are only four months too late. Australia introduced a similar self-isolate system in March. It didn’t work. About 25% broke quarantine. So, it was changed to all arrivals being forced to stay in hotels, under police supervision. It is not pleasant but it has worked. Australia has a total of 101 deaths.

  3. f_lawless

    “Coronavirus: Children and older adults to take part in vaccine trial”

    So conflicted with where I stand on this story. On the one hand, experimentation of vaccines on children aged 5-12 seems deeply unethical to me – at odds with the principle of informed consent. But on the other hand, the BBC article doesn’t mention anything about ethics and god forbid if I were to get associated with “anti-vaxxers”!

    1. SOQ

      In that link to the interview you posted yesterday, Zack Bush made another prediction.

      He said that all corona viruses have a two year life cycle and that when they come out with a vaccine and CoVid-19 then disappears- they will claim that it was the vaccine that eradicated it, which is physiologically and scientifically impossible.

      He is right of course, that is exactly what they will try to do. The rush to find a cure for something which by its nature is inherently transient is driven only by profit- people have every reason to be cynical.

      1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        “He said that all corona viruses have a two year life cycle.” If that is true, why aren’t the experts or politicians saying that we wait another 18 months until disappears?

        1. SOQ

          Exactly my question- do corona viruses only have a two year life cycle? I can’t find any information which says one way or the other. The search engines are swamped with CoVid-19 stuff but nothing about the time line of the group know as corona.

        2. alickdouglas

          MERS emerged in 2012 and is still circulating, so this is nonsense. I hadn’t heard of this chap until he was mentioned above. He says he’s a specialist in internal medicine, endocrinology and hospice care (thanks google). How does this equate to expertise in viruses? There are some really good sources on virology out there at the moment, lots of them completely unconnected to vested interests like pharma companies or WHO, it shouldn’t be necessary to use folks like this to inform opinion.

          1. SOQ

            Interesting point on MERS- one of the recommended prevention tips is

            avoiding undercooked meats and any food prepared in conditions that may not be hygienic.

            Given the global pattern of outbreaks in meat processing plants, way over and above other agri workers in similar work / living conditions- one has to wonder if there is not a connection.


          2. f_lawless

            “it shouldn’t be necessary to use folks like this to inform opinion.”

            Sorry to be frank, but that’s very patronising. The fact Dr. Bush predicted a year ago that the next pandemic outbreak would come from Hubei province makes him worth considering, in my book. It would be naive to treat everything any one person says in relation the virus as gospel. Nevertheless, I think his discussion about the key role the human microbiome plays in protecting us from viral disease and how the virus is unmasking toxicity in our environment is insightful. Recent studies on the connection between air pollution and susceptibility to covid-19 have lent credibility to what what he’s been saying in that regard.

            Maybe it would be fairer to watch his interview on “The Highwire” on youtube instead of dismissing after a quick google search?

            Also, I think I’ve had a pretty good track record in keeping myself well informed as this phenomenon has unfolded. Back in mid-March I was looking to Dr John Ioannidis, one of the most highly cited scientists in the world (and one with epidemiological expertise) as he wrote of how countries were going into lockdown amid an “evidence fiasco”.

            From an early stage I’ve been arguing the case for the Swedish approach as implemented by state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell. Weeks later, WHO spokesperson, Dr. Mike Ryan was lauding Sweden as a model approach for other countries to adopt going forward.

            In late March I was pointing out that there a new study by a team of researchers, led by Prof. Sunetra Gupta, epidemiologist at Oxford University, which was in direct opposition to the influential study by the team at Imperial College led by Neil Ferguson. The Oxford study contended that the virus may already be much more widespread in the UK than originally believed.

            Ferguson’s modelling has since been exposed as deeply flawed – the code behind it amateurish and laden with bugs. In a recent interview, Gupta noted that although different countries have had different lockdown policies (or no lockdown at all), the evolution of the epidemic has followed an almost a uniform pattern of behaviour. It has grown, turned around and died away – highly consistent with the SIR model. To her this is further evidence of a build up of immunity among the different populations.

        3. Daisy Chainsaw

          Driven by profit? Like Zach Bush and his online shop selling little bottles of water as a cure all to gullible eejits?

          1. SOQ

            Even if he is a snake oil salesman- which after watching his interviews I doubt- are you seriously comparing someone like that to one if not the most powerful industry in the world?

            In fairness, I am from an era when we watched HIV Act Up activists smuggle drugs into the US from Mexico while they fought over patents so yes, maybe a little biased- especially as some of those same players are still knocking around.

    2. goldenbrown

      c’mere sure if you’re into it at least get paid properly!
      €3,500 apparently although you’d have to join a queue:


      It’s an Irish setup, they ordinarily run their “Flucamp” human challenge trials out of rooms attached to St. Marys in London under the monikker hVivo but have made the obvious move into the Covid busine$$$$$

      you could be one of the ones to get the placebo but hey if you’re not in you can’t win

    3. alickdouglas

      What would be unethical would be to market a vaccine for children that hadn’t been tested in children. Consent for trials is a constantly evolving subject, and when it comes to paediatrics, I’ve never worked on a trial where a large proportion of the preparation time of the trial team and staff wasn’t spent talking through the ethics implications and working on the documentation.

      FDA, EMA and the Japanese agency all have ethics requirements that need to be met–and demonstrated–before a product can be licensed. Before a candidate can be tested in children, it must first go through animal testing (rodents, rabbits and non-human primates) and then into adults for Phase I trials. Typically therefore clinical trials in children are not referred to as ‘experiments’ since there should already be a fair amount of data in hand to demonstrate that the safety and reacto profile is likely to be ‘acceptable’. For paediatrics there at least two ‘consent’ forms: an actual consent for the child’s parent/guardian and an ‘assent’ form for the child, with different age appropriate approaches for a spread like 5 to 12 years. In many cases now both the consent and assent may have to be video recorded for future scrutiny. A hospital ethics board including physicians, nurses an ethics expert (usually with a PhD) and a ‘layperson’ will also have to consider and review all the documentation, with a strong focus on the consent docs.

      A safety monitoring board of 3 or 4 independent physicians also has to be in place. They get to independently review data during the trial, and if they see any suspicious signals are empowered to order the trial to be stopped.

      If you dig, you’ll probably be able to find the exact consent paperwork that is used for a trial, although it may only be put into the public domain after results from the trial are published in peer-review. High tier medical journals (Lancet, NEJM etc) require the protocol and consent templates to be made available, and usually these aren’t behind a paywall.

      The system isn’t perfect and unfortunately reform typically only comes after mess-ups, but it is usually improving. I am biased having spent a long time in industry, but you shouldn’t take my word for it, you can dig into clinical trials dot gov or published trials on the internet to see how it’s done.

      1. SOQ

        Thanks for that alickdouglas. A quick question if you wouldn’t mind and bear with me as I have no knowledge of this subject.

        Once a potential vaccine is found and it is injected into someone- how is the actual virus introduced to them?

        Also in blind studies- is it introduced into people who received the placebo in the same way?

        1. alickdouglas

          Typically for vaccines up to Phase II you don’t look at efficacy, but immunogenicity (ability of the candidate to drive an immune response). This is usually done in the absence of the virus, simply by looking at the development of biological markers, usually (but not exclusively) relevant antibodies. As a general rule, a vaccine candidate that elicits strong antibody responses is assumed to be potentially efficacious (as an aside the more antibodies they elicit, the more reactogenic they tend to be). Until now, for pathogens that are ‘drug treatable’ it has been possible to do Phase I ‘challenge’ studies where you would vaccinate/placebo some adults in a hospital setting, and then challenge them with the pathogen. However, this has typically been limited to extremely well characterised pathogens (some strains of malaria for example). If the candidate doesn’t work, you need to ensure that you can clear the pathogen from the volunteers. There is some discussion of this for corona. To be honest despite the hoo-hah, it is really only helpful where your virus has stopped circulating naturally (for example, with zika) or is rare.

          Efficacy is usually assessed in Phase 3 for vaccines. In that case, studies tend to be large: Salk enrolled 1 million children for the Phase III assessment of IPV, the numbers for Sabin’s OPV were probably 10 million. More modern trials, like those for rotavirus enrolled about 120k. The number to be enrolled is estimated statistically based on the likelihood that folks are to get sick (‘the attack rate’) and the assumed efficacy of the vaccine. Note that you are not actually introducing the virus, you are assuming that a certain proportion of your volunteer population is going to be infected naturally. You then calculate the efficacy by comparing your vaccinees vs. controls (there is a certain amount of statistical wizardry involved there too).

          Incidentally, where you actually *do* challenge studies, you usually try to introduce the challenge virus ‘via a natural route’, so with malaria challenge, you actually really use malaria-infected mosquitoes (carefully bred in the lab to ensure they are free of other pathogens), or via a spray of virus to the nose in the case of respiratory pathogens.

  4. TopHat from Monopoly

    I love Broadsheet.
    Especially the comments.
    Particularly in these precarious times.

    I find it comforting.

    It reminds me that I’m NOT the most stupidest person in the whole wide world.
    There’s always someone more stupider than me.

    1. Fintan Frobisher

      It has been a well-trodden path for generations of Irish people seeking a better life.
      Britannia is a welcoming host.
      And they sell Taytos.

      1. V'ness

        The exact same can be said of the US

        These two relationships should explain why Europe has to compete for our support and why they indulge the Paddys with roads and fancy gigs, and their gaudy dangling of €€€€€€€€€€s and what have you

        Without our established roots in both the UK and the US, the €U would treat us like scourry calves

        Ireland is a very inconvenient and costly thorn for the €U
        Our friendly partners my A55

      2. GiggidyGoo

        The Irish Passport office is also a well-trodden path for British people seeking a life after Brexit.

        1. Fintan Frobisher

          It’s a well-trodden path for people who think it’ll help them pass through passport control a bit quicker on the way to their holiday villa in Tuscany.

          1. Fintan Frobisher

            The idea that millions of British people are going to uproot from the economic strength of the 6th biggest economy in the world and move to an agricultural backwater after Brexit because they hold an Irish passport is fanciful.
            Just all part of the Remain/EU spin gobbled up by the impressionable locals still trembling with excitement because a Hollywood star has holed up in Ireland for the duration of Covid-19.
            ” Ooh look,he carries a Supervalu plastic bag just like us “

          2. V'ness

            C’mere FF Rubbisher

            I think you’re wasted bhoy

            The majority of Brits would set up somewhere else if they could
            They’d be gone in the morning
            And wouldn’t look back

          3. realPolithicks

            “the 6th biggest economy”

            Lol charger, with the clownshow that’s running things over there at the moment they’ll soon be lucky to be the 6th biggest economy in Europe.

          4. V'ness

            Quote economic strength of the 6th biggest economy as much as you can FF Rubbisher bhoy
            While you can

            Only a matter time now before the UK is an off site Russia
            Cummings is selling it off like a spiv
            And who else but to the same pals he had when he was there when they started out as Oligarchics

          5. GiggidyGoo

            Nice to see all of that ‘Made In Britain, but not owned by British’ stuff being paraded around. ‘Assembled in Britain’ would be more accurate in a lost of cases. Heh heh heh.

          6. Fintan Frobisher

            And if you take away American tech companies and the international pharma crowd Ireland really only produces butter and a lot of cow dung.
            Mrs Brown’s Boys doesn’t count I’m afraid.

            Oh dear, I’m picking fights and getting all nasty about Ireland again. I’ll end up in boo boo moderation if I don’t reign it in a bit.

      3. Johnny

        “It finds that the industry has already lost 9% of its volume due to Brexit, and overall investment has dropped by 80% over the last three years. In the event of a ‘No Deal’ Brexit, in which the UK would leave the European Union without any trade deal agreed, Professor Holweg estimates that the UK would lose a further 35% of its current production volume over the following decade.“

        1. Fintan Frobisher

          ” The great and present danger is that the decisions on where to produce new models will continue to go against the UK, until existing plants here become sub-scale and thus uncompetitive, and will close,’ states Holweg ” April 2019

          ” Nissan is in talks with alliance partner Renault to build two of the French brand’s SUV models at its Sunderland plant ” Financial Times May 2020

          Despite Brexit …

          1. Johnny

            -India /France next year about knock you back 8th-your counting on the French save your dying auto industry – haha

          2. GiggidyGoo

            Japanese and French companies discuss whether to throw the British a lifeline, while German company, owners of Rolls Royce, decide not to.
            Sure isn’t it great to be self-sufficient?

  5. millie in handcuffs

    Apropos of nothing, I just wanted to say that I think – and it is especially the case at the moment – we are over saturated with information, expert opinions, alternative theories and absolute misinformation. It’s incredibly difficult for people to take in such a volume of highly specialised information and establish what may be accurate and what is hogwash. In a situation which is wholly new, rapidly developing, for which the majority of the world were not equipped, it’s impossible to know what the correct course of action should be, and we won’t know until time enough has passed that we can look at sufficient data to establish patterns etc, to see what could have been done.

    As I’ve said before, I don’t like trying to comment on Covid 19 with any degree of certainty – because my only background in science is general science in school and poorly taught LC biology. I don’t know enough about any of it, and I don’t think I’m anywhere near qualified enough to make a comment, because my understanding of this as a topic is just not there. I can read a hundred articles a week, listen to countless podcasts or vids, but how do I know then that what this expert or that specialist is saying is fact, is correct? How does consuming more and more information – often conflicting – help me to establish what is and isn’t accurate or unbiased information?

    1. Janet, I ate my avatar

      overwhelming isn’t it, so I have decided to switch off, wash my hands and crack on with the world around me avoiding covid conversation because it’s a waste of my oxygen imo

    2. SOQ

      Well millie- not knowing anything or little about a subject is actually a great place to start. I don’t think we need to be at end stage to do a lessons learned at all- nursing homes for example- appalling stuff and not just in Ireland.

      And what I find interesting is how people are starting to break ranks and have open discussions. Cameron Kyle-Sidell for example and how his YouTube video blew the doors right off what was conventional ICU thinking of CoVid-19 and how many open online discussions are now ongoing between doctors. For any young person considering a career in such specialist medicine- they are getting a free education- in real time.

      And then there is the dissenting voices which YouTube keep trying to ban, even though they usually have no real clue as to what they are banning. These are people who are mainly no longer dependent on the pharmaceutical industry or academia but you can be certain there are plenty more still within. So that is another shake up going on- Sunetra Gupta being the latest.

      Either way I suppose there is a drive in some people to figure it out- while others just want to switch off- either if perfectly fine and your choice. But, when you have governments clearly making it up as they go along, and police state type powers being introduced (which personally I think are frightening), there is no real harm in people discussing these things- if they really want to- its a free country- sort of.

      1. realPolithicks

        “not knowing anything or little about a subject is actually a great place to start”

        I think your constant comments on the subject disprove this statement.

    3. Donnchadh

      That’s a great comment, and a great question at the end. I wrote a piece on this exact issue two months ago (https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/03/20/im-no-expert-but/ ). Basically, there’s no straightforward answer, but there are a few rules of thumb which are useful. In addition to the ones outlined in the article, I would add:
      -be careful when reading comparative statistics, such as claims about trends, comparisons between countries etc. In particular, not all countries or organisations are gathering or classifying data in the same way.
      -be careful about criticisms based on someone’s motives, ideological views or biases. Pretty much everyone will have some biases, and these certainly do have an impact on what people are inclined to accept or be more sceptical about. But be careful of arguments which draw attention to someone’s perceived bias as a shortcut to dismissing them. Try if possible to assess what someone is saying on it’s own merits (the Johnny Giles approach to Covid-19).
      -you can’t check for yourself everything which you read, but it is useful to search for criticisms of a specific claim or scientist, no matter how impressive
      -a final tio: trust your ignorance. Not only should you keep in mind how little you know, but be wary of people who don’t acknowledge their own ignorance. I’m thinking in particular of people from a non-epidemiological/virological/even medical background who are confident that the whole field (or virtually the whole field) has gotten things badly wrong. In saying this, I’m not suggesting that the consensus view on this field is right – in the specific case of C19, it is almost certainly not, at least on specific issues. But the people in that field will have the most relevant domain-specific knowledge, and the best idea of the limits of this kowlegde. But agai , this is just a rule of thumb.

      1. SOQ

        Just one point in this Donnchadh- I think it is sensible when tackling something like this CoVid-19 pandemic is to untangle the different issues.

        The first is medical and unless you are a specialist medic, you are going to get lost and confused as to who or what to believe. But, the fear mongering and doom and gloom coming out of the MSM should be ignored because there is clearly an agenda at play. And, the social media companies have done themselves serious harm with their WHO adherence because new platforms are springing up all over the place.

        The second is political- was a lock down necessary and at what point should it have happened etc. I think most of us are on safer ground here and asking common sense questions like why house arrest AND wide open airports is reasonable. Likewise nursing homes pleading for PPE- someone somewhere was not doing their job.

        So I suppose what I am saying is that yes, we are not going to take a crash course in virology or epidemiology but that should not disqualify us from having big picture opinions either.

        1. Donnchadh

          You suggest that fear mongering from the MSM should be ignored because there is an agenda at play, but this is exactly the kind of error I cautioned against. If you are going to ignore reports in certain media because the writers or publishers have an agenda, by the same token shouldn’t you ignore many of the sources you yourself have been citing (unless you think that the likes of the leader of the Irish Freedom Party does not have an agenda)? Or is it that you ignore the writers whose agenda you do not agree with? In that case, you’ll end up evaluating medical claims on an ideological basis.
          It would make much more sense, imo, to critically evaluate what the MSM (and the alternative media, for that matter) are saying, rather than rejecting it on the basis of a perceived agenda.

          1. SOQ

            Of course Cahill has an agenda but that doesn’t mean there isn’t some truth in what she is saying either. It certainly does not explain why national radio stations refuse to interview her in a professional capacity.

            As for MSM (Indo, Journal and especially IT), they have most definitely been part of the problem- not the solution. Why weren’t they questioning the glaring contradiction of airports being left wide open? Why were they not doing stories about nursing homes and nurses in Cavan appealing for PPE when both were all over social media?

            They all have agendas- that is a given- and always something you bear in mind.

          2. Donnchadh

            So Cahill might be right about some things, even given that she has an agenda. Fair enough. So why don’t you adopt the same attitude as regards the MSM, or at least as regards the medical professionals they interview, who write op-eds, etc?
            I don’t hold any brief for the MSM, btw – i’ve said before that I think they should have given more space to voices critical of the government’s approach. The question Milly raised is how those of us who are not experts should approach the various claims being made by experts of various kinds (some of whose expertise, it should be noted, is of dubious relevance). And imo, you shouldn’t begin by simply dismissing those you perceive as having an agenda, no matter how much you might disagree with that agenda.

    1. Johnny

      -more posturing and posing towards China.

      One the more interesting sub plots in Deadbeat Dennis and Digicels filling in US Bankruptcy court is the China connection-the Aussie’s and the yanks are not happy.

      Digicel is before a US Federal Court seeking approval to stiff its creditors by scaremongering them that if they don’t go along with yet another ‘plan’ they get nothing-basic hostage taking.

      The US Federal judicial system at present is the most political since JFK appointed Bobby,Trump has Dennis in his crosshairs and has since before the election over his millions and millions of dollars in support to the Clintons.

      The irish media has portrayed Deadbeat Dennis little visit in June to a federal court in NY as procedural, in normal times I’d agree, these are far from normal with a highly political federal judiciary and a president determined to get revenge on his enemies,including Dennis O’Brien.

      x acting Chief Staff Mulvaney is there to keep an eye on his golf course and his enemies !

      “Special Envoy Mulvaney has been deeply engaged in the Administration’s policy in Northern Ireland, including a recent visit in February to Belfast, where he participated in a cross-community program and met with community leaders, businesses, and government officials. His familiarity with the people and leaders in Belfast, London, and Dublin will be instrumental to ensure further progress in Northern Ireland. I look forward to his engagement as he does so with my full trust and confidence.”

      Anyone who wants to can listen into the court case in June as its all audiovisual will post the link we get closer.

      With the China state company doing due dilligance don’t rule out some ‘unusual’ developments in US Bankruptcy Court.


      1. Johnny

        Part 1 tomorrow you won’t read it anywhere else:)
        Will DeadBeat Dennis get a happy ending..
        Primer above.

      2. V'ness

        Trump is actually the Deep State

        Maybe not from his run in the primaries onto the ticket, and into An Teachta Bán
        But definitely now

        Well that’s what I think anyway

        BTW, Mr O’Brien, or who ever from that set up are watching,
        We’re back in Court 14 on the 8th, feel free to approach

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      I hope one of the political parties in the Dail nominates him for President. I think he’d be an excellent successor to MDH.

      1. Rob_G

        It’s strange that the both of you are showing such heartfelt-concern for a member of An Gardaí Síochána because, when another poster quite correctly points out that by voting for Sinn Féin, you are voting for a group that has murdered people, including members of AGS, you both normally get very defensive…

        1. scottser

          FG have their roots in fascism. FF instigated a civil war and funded subsequent IRA activities here. Read a history book FFS.

          1. Rob_G

            Right on both counts – neither of those parties had convicted bombers standing for them in the last election, though – Sinn Féin did.

          2. Rob_G

            I realise that it’s hard to keep track of all of the various SF members crimes of varying levels of heinousness, so I will tell you:

            Dessie Ellis

          3. Rob_G

            No, he served his full sentence – you should really take the time to read up a little about the people whom you spend several hours a day shilling online for.

          4. bisted

            …do keep up…doesn’t that scourge of the shinners and upholder of blueshirt probity, Alan Farrell, give regular reminders under Dail privilege of shinner past sins…

      2. GiggidyGoo

        He’d be a far superior representative of the people than previous incumbents Daisy.

Comments are closed.

Sponsored Link