‘For Me Free Speech And Representation Are Non Negotiable’

at

‘…Now, unfortunately, we see a rise in discriminatory organisations and vocal transgender exclusionary activists using Twitter and divisive antics to attempt to a drive a wedge in queer communities between transgender people and fracture our support from feminists.

For our decades of solidarity, some seek to repay our community with a call for division based on falsities and bigotry. Let us say unequivocally that the statements of newly launched organisations that seek to defend biology or fight gender identity and expression do not represent the wider LGBTI+ community nor feminists in Ireland.

More importantly, they are not organisations at all, they have no governance, no accountability, and are simply Twitter accounts. Further, they are not supported by the wider Irish community. Ireland has dealt with these pseudo-feminists before, and the work of Feminist Ire dealt swiftly with their attacks by stating “Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles theirs.They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says, either now or in the future.”

In addressing these accounts it is simple enough to refute them by stating they are not radical, they are not inclusive, and they are not feminists. They are simply misinformed and transphobic.

The vitriol and disinformation these accounts and people share does not represent the beliefs of the legitimate organisations and signers of this letter, and together we repudiate their beliefs, and call for an end in giving airtime to their despicable brand of harassment.

In Ireland we exist as a strong coalition of intersectional solidarity. As LGBTI+ and feminist organisations we stand together, we march together, we advocate together. We will not allow transphobia to grow and our history of work together will only continue to propel us to a more equal future for all marginalised people.

We call on media, and politicians to no longer provide legitimate representation for those that share bigoted beliefs, that are aligned with far right ideologies and seek nothing but harm and division. These fringe internet accounts stand against affirmative medical care of transgender people, and they stand against the right to self-identification of transgender people in this country.

In summation they stand against trans, women’s and gay rights by aligning themselves with far right tropes and stances. They have attacked LGBT+ education in school, attacked anti-bullying campaigns, and attack access to medical services. They stand to remove equality, and cause a legacy of damaging discrimination. In particular, the road to Gender Recognition was long and public, and we in the trans community are thankful for the support of the many who stood by our side. We are thankful to the wider gay, lesbian and bisexual communities that marched and worked alongside of us for legal recognition. We are thankful for the feminists that saw, and still see, trans women as their sisters and use their voice to speak for equality…

Portion of an open letter to mark Trans Day of Remembrance 2020 last Friday, signed by Amnesty Ireland and members of Ireland’s LGBTQ+ community.

Irish LGBTQ+ community stand in #IrishSolidariT against transphobia on Trans Day of Remembrance (GCN)

Meanwhile….

Amnesty founder Seán McBride;l Amnesty Ireland chief Colm O’Gorman

Seán McBride?

RollingNews

177 thoughts on “‘For Me Free Speech And Representation Are Non Negotiable’

      1. Nigel

        ‘We cordially want to take away your rights and demonise you as threats to our children. You getting angry about that is the same as us being opressed.’

        1. Andrew

          Take away women’s rights you mean? Rights hard won now being given away at the behest of in the main of people who engage in autogynephilia.
          Trans women are not women but Colm O’Gorman doesn’t really give a toss about actual women.

    1. Micko

      I’ve no idea really either.

      My advice, when someone starts talking about intersectionality to me – I always start backing off.

      They’re about to start blaming me for something I have no control over.

      Don’t engage. Just smile and go “muhm – Yep”

      1. millie

        I truly don’t understand it, so I take a similar stance to yours. Cause a distraction and run away screaming.

        The way I see it is your gender is entirely your own, and therefore none of my business.

          1. ReproBertie

            I thought the way they casually explained away Jango Fett’s haphazard approach to helmet wearing (and that of every Mandalorian in Rebels) was very well done.

    2. Nellie

      The twitter posts by Isuelt White was in response to Colm O’Gorman pride in supporting an open letter by LGBTQ+ calling to disenfranchise the women of Ireland who voice their concerns at the erasure of their rights and others who support biological facts. The letter further calls lIrland LGB alliance a hate group for supporting same sex attraction of lesbian and gay people. The letter was signed by Col O’Gorman as a representative of Amnesty Ireland and NCWI amongst others.. it is astounding that an NGO purporting to fight for human rights would take such a stance.

    3. Nellie

      The twitter posts by Isuelt White was in response to Colm O’Gorman pride in supporting an open letter by LGBTQ+ calling to disenfranchise the women of Ireland who voice their concerns at the erasure of their sex based rights alongside others who support biological facts. The letter further calls Ireland LGB Alliance a hate group for supporting SAME SEX attraction of lesbian and gay people. The letter was signed by Colm O’Gorman as a representative of Amnesty Ireland and NCWI amongst others.. It is astounding that an NGO purporting to fight for human rights would take such a stance.

    4. SRipley

      According to the letter, if you “defend biology or fight gender identity”, which means if you acknowledge that transmen although valid and worthy of respect aren’t actually biological men and you think that violent male born rapists shouldn’t be housed in women’s prisons just because they self-ID as women, then politicians should deny you “legitimate representation”.

      1. Nigel

        Certainty if you repeatedly conflate trans people with violent rapists you should never have even a scrap of power or any say over what happens to and for trans people.

  1. Daisy Chainsaw

    Proud to support my trans sisters and brothers. AstroTERFing won’t gain traction in Ireland.

    1. Nigel

      +1 what a feckin nightmare it must be to have to put up with this pushback against their rights and the hatred directed at them.

      1. Daisy Chainsaw

        It’s done by people who can no longer be traditionally homophobic, so they’ve created a way to hate the T – specifically trans women. Back in the old days, they’d be worried about de quares getting hold of your boys in public toilets, terfs basically accuse any trans woman of being a predatory man looking to gain access to toilets and changing rooms to attack and rape. Predators don’t need to go to that level of subterfuge to attack women and girls, (unless they’re a JK Rowling character) news outlets are riddled with reports of attacks on us by men dressed as men.

        Twitter is riddled with LGB accounts that all lead back to just a couple of gmail addresses. Don’t get dragged into the hatefest against a small and already vulnerable group.

        1. SOQ

          To dismiss all gay people – and some transgender- who have concerns in the current Trans movement is ignorant, even for you.

          But that is not the point, the issue is about free speech and censorship.

          At its core is a belief that the current Trans militancy is by nature homophobic and I can see where that is coming from.

          Many young people who have opposite sex mannerisms are immediately categorised as transgender now- when in fact they are just good old fashioned gay, as the increasing number of detransitioned is proving.

          1. Oro

            To dismiss trans’ people’s advocacy for their own rights and equitable treatment ‘homophobia, and I can understand it’ (paraphrasing) is ignorant, even for you! (And that’s saying something).

            It is ofc unsurprising that you think this way. As I said last week, once you’re been radicalized online against one subject why not the rest.

          2. SOQ

            I’ve been on the gay scene for the most of 30 odd years and I have several transgender friends who are as appalled with the current behaviour as I am.

            Are they transphobic too?

            I am homophobic now is it?

            Grow up.

            What O’Gorman and co does not seem to understand is that this aggressive militancy is doing the entire LGBT movement more harm than anything since its inception.

          3. Oro

            Your decades ‘on the gay scene’ (vague) seem ashamedly misspent if this is how your views ended up.

            I’ve been ‘on the gay scene’ for a little over half that and don’t seek to deny trans people the ability to establish fair treatment or their rights. Maybe it happens in year 25-30, I’ll keep an eye open!

            Side note you keep repeating ‘militant’ and ‘authoritarian’ is this a Twitter language instruction?

          4. SOQ

            Well good for you but- if you are going to frame it as a generational issue then you are most definitely guilty of what you accuse others of?

          5. Oro

            You misrepresent me, I’m not framing it as a generational issue in the slightest (well not broadly at least). You brought up time spent ‘on the gay scene’ as a factor, I think to use as a mechanism to establish a kind of largesse to your comment (so to speak) and I was just replying to that directly.

            To draw it out, I don’t believe that older gay men are necessarily less progressive than their younger versions. But I think you as a specific case based on your comments, are most definitely that. I mean it’s self evident this isn’t opinion based. Your comments are right there with your name underneath.

          6. Oro

            I’ve notice you deploying this kind of scream question before I’m not sure what you’re hoping to get back. You’ll catch more bees with honey.

          7. Daisy Chainsaw

            The militancy is coming from the anti trans astroterf lobby. They’re the ones screaming trans panic every time a trans person deigns to exist.

          8. Daisy Chainsaw

            What do my sexual habits have to do with this? Which letter of the LGBTQIA+ spectrum is acceptable to you?

          9. SOQ

            Lads, if you think there is no difference then when this malfeasance is over- take 20 of you to the door of The George or Panti at the one time and see how far inside you get?

          10. Oro

            Don’t exploit the oppression of gay people for your own purposes when you get called out for being a nightmare. I’m not being critical of you in relation to your homosexuality I’m criticizing your transphobia. Also your ideological messiness. I am gay (see how I’m volunteering that at a natural point for myself and not at your will) and I understand that LGBTQ rights are not just the ones that specifically apply to me. I think you’re governed by total self interest and are intellectually (I know, questionable) lazy to the point where you will not challenge yourself with other points of view beyond your own. You’re too comfortable. You’ve also clearly been radicalized by Twitter bots and YouTube algorithms (see ideological messiness above).

            TL;DR you can’t cry homophobia at will. It’s cynical, but luckily v transparent. I don’t think anyone that can read would believe your homophobia accusation for a second.

          11. SOQ

            I am electrical engineer with a degree in computer science and two H Dips darlin- I am perfectly capable of critical thinking- I have not been radicalised by anyone or anything.

            I am also a LGBT activist from back when it was physically dangerous to be so.

            https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/07/27/saving-ulster-from-sanctimony/

            The day that the LGBT community start censoring its own is the day I walk away but- it sure as hell will not be before a fight.

          12. Oro

            I’m not interviewing you for a job both of your H Dips are meaningless in this conversation. I wonder how the (self declared) young LGBT activist you would feel about this later in life stage you that gets kicks out of saying ‘tranny’ on the internet. Or taking part in the movement to deny fairness and equal support to trans people (that’s the T in LGBT if you’ve forgotten). Or using the type of language that was probably used against gay people then, and using it against trans people now.

            And nobody’s trying to censor you would you ever get a grip, poor wee sausage with your little victim bit. In fact, I’d hazard a guess that your little ‘ARE YOU GAY??1??’ Questionnaire is designed to do just that, to invalidate the opinions of others on your terms.

            And yes you have been radicalized, 2+2=5 isn’t far away I’m sure.

          13. SOQ

            Srt9 person lectures gay person because they clearly know better is it?

            Do you even know anyone who is transgender? And by that I don’t mean an edgy weekend haircut, I mean 24/7/365 living the opposite with the full implications?

          14. SOQ

            The reason why questioning if someone is gay or straight should be pretty obvious. This is primarily a debate which is going on within the gay community and we have a long history of straight people telling us what is and what is not acceptable discourse. Gay people being told their sexuality does not matter? Of course it bloody matters- that is the whole point,

            LGB Alliances are springing up all over the western world and there is reasons for that. They are not transphobic and they are certainly not homophobic but cancelling or silencing such opinions is just plain wrong. It reeks of bullying and is the exact opposite of what the rainbow flag stands for.

            LGB Alliance are drawing a distinction between sexuality and gender identity- why is that? Why now? Why do they feel this way?

            If your only answer to those questions is to cast aspersions and call for bans then you are completely missing the point. It is lazy dismissive thinking of the worse kind.

          15. Oro

            LGB Alliances, whose purpose is to isolate trans people from the rest of the LGBTQ community, are transphobic. It’s literally spelled out, in the name. Altho what can we expect from someone whose understanding of trans people is that they’re “living the opposite” you fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be trans.

            And get a grip with the persecution complex, nobody here is calling for bans, you’re probably racking up the most comments from one poster along with your weird gang of contemporaries.

          16. SOQ

            As I said, I have two long standing transgender friends- the real deal- both post op and very happy. I could not imagine either of them as men because after long and painful journeys, including losing family and jobs, they are both finally where they want to be.

            I know their stories and understand the courage it took to be where they are, they are most definitely living the opposite of what they were biologically born.

            As for banning and cancelling, that is exactly what is happening. Story after story of people losing their jobs because of this aggressive militancy which even extends to Trans people who dare to hold their own opinions on the subject.

            And that is the irony, most of this crew who now label themselves as ‘Trans’ are not even transgender.

          17. Formerly known as @ireland.com

            SOQ – up to his old questions trick. “Has your income been affected by lockdown?” As if money was the only way that you would decide if you support lockdown or not. Well, I supported lockdown where I am, not because of money but because of vulnerable young family members. “Protect the vulnerable.” – How do you do that? Such a simplistic understanding of the world.

  2. gallantman

    That letter is a bit of a convoluted mess. Nothing says lazy argumentation quite like pointing the finger at the other sides “right-wing tropes”

      1. Nigel

        The right are quite good at coming up with or hijacking terms or ideas to cover their bigotry. Everybody sees through it, except when convenient.

  3. BS

    @daisy I’m proud to support women, who are the most at risk group of people in the world facing violence, rape and death on a daily basis because of their sex. Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for LGBT people.

    Womens sex based rights and protections are there for a reason. the Womens Council of Ireland is there to support WOMEN not biological males playing make believe

    1. v AKA Frilly Keane

      playing make believe

      WTF

      Like Jesus Christ,

      f’me lads
      Ye opened the door to some seriously hateful people, bigots and some right intolerant hoors altogether
      all to promote free speech

      Was it for this, like playing make believe
      was it really for this

      seems to me there BS
      that you should just mind your own business
      and let the Women’s Council of Ireland run its own shop

      1. BS

        Do you think the man in Limerick prison who hasn’t undergone any transition at all but simply filled out a form to “become” a woman is not playing make believe? Or playing the system?

        There are legitimate trans people in Ireland and they have the same human rights as every other man and woman in this country. What is being objected to is women’s rights being discussed and altered without their consent or discussion. And women who speak out are silenced, deplatformed and sent rape and death threats.

        Woke isn’t working. Women are again standing up for their rights.

          1. BS

            Trans men aren’t prevelant in nearly the same numbers as trans idenditfying men and autogynophiles.

            Trans men are female, and as such statistically pose less of a threat to women than males

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            I wonder would the transphobic lobby, in their Trans panic bathroom hysteria, accept this person in their toilet because it stated female on their birth certificate? https://s31242.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/TRANSGENDER_MEN_COMING_OUT-1024×576.jpg

            Like homophobes obsess over bumsex between 2 men, ignoring that women can be gay too, transphobes obsess over trans women, but not trans men who would be forced into female spaces under their rules!

          3. SRipley

            Nigel, you really don’t see putting violent rapists and attempted murderers who specifically targeted women into womens prisons as a threat to women’s rights? The letter called on politicians to deny representatipn to those who “defend biology”. Do you not see a slight difference in the potential threat of male biology to women as opposed to vice versa? Saying so apparently means you shouldn’t have a voice or representation in society now.

          4. Nigel

            I expect that could be easily avoided, should it ever arise, without denying trans people their rights. Making trans people responsible for what violent rapists get up to is fairly sick.

          1. BS

            Transwomen are biologically male. Humans cannot change sex.

            Women = female person

            Transwomen are transwomen

          2. Nigel

            Whatever you think, it costs you literally nothing to treat trans women as women. It takes effort to go out of your way to be rotten about it, making life just that little bit more difficult for people already vulnerable and under strain.

        1. Nigel

          If you want trans women to have the same human rights as women, you ipso facto want women to have those rights too. U R dumb.

        2. SRipley

          Yes, Andrew, that would appear to be the side Daisy is on. The vast majority of men don’t pose any threat but enough do that we make the distinction, we have sex segregated spaces. The vast majority of Trans women don’t pose a threat but the character and criminality of the people with crimes specifically against women and children who suddenly declare as women and are therefore legally entitled to placement in women’s prisons etc should give any one with any decency and sense serious pause as to the risks inherent in allowing self Id and conflating trans and non-trans biology, eliminating all distinction.

          1. Nigel

            I don’t understand why trans people are being held to the standards of violent rapists. Well, I suppose I do really.

            The biology of transition is reasonably well understood and it’s own thing and doesn’t conflate anything for anyone who isn’t trans.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            I’ve already asked this and nobody seems to want to answer me; Why would men declare as women to gain access to women and girls to assault? They already rape and assault women and girls easily enough as men. This is a red herring and part of what drives the homophobes and ultra conservatives behind the LGB, anti trans movement. 30 years ago the same sorts were pointing the finger at gay men but publicly attacking men for being gay is no longer socially acceptable, so they’ve turned on a very small number of people to point the finger at. Trans women are more likely to be victims of assault, not perpetrators.

      1. V AKA Frilly Keane

        It’s not hate that is the driving issue
        Not for or me anyway

        It’s the intolerance Daisy

        All walks of life
        The more the merrier
        AFAIC

        And as long as everyone is treated equally
        Then it’s no business of mine who or what you identify as
        Where you’re from
        Or what you do on a Sunday

        And d’ya know what
        If all the Patriotriotic yet oddly Q loyalist, free-speechers truth speakers and whatever type journalist they’re calling themselves lately, plus their enablers and hosts
        Even demonstrated even a slither of tolerance

        Then you wouldn’t have all the Hate sh1t ruining all the Irish forums, blogs,webstreams and feeds
        And wherever else they have a presence

        Learn to live and let live
        Cause that’s what Freedom Liberty Free Speech Democracy and all that other crap they come out with actually means

        Live and let live

        1. SRipley

          V AKA Frilly Keane, Its absolutely her business if her kids or family struggle with identity issues or body issues and are pushed toward trans identification only instead of addressing individual issues. It’s her business if for any reason she ends up in limerick prison with a fully intact male with a history of sexual assault who’s not so much as on hormones. It’s her business that govt. funded organisations are calling for her right to representation to be suppressed. It’s her business that her sex as a political class are being defined out of existence and the issues facing 98-99% of the population being redefined as no longer centred on women as a political class.

          In contrast, I don’t see her calling for trans people to be denied their right to representation or to be denied the acknowledgement of them as a class. That’s living and let living.

          And yes, I for one 100% think Barbie Kardashian is playing make believe.

          1. V AKA Frilly Keane

            Who is this her / she you’re talking about?

            And if prisoners are in danger
            From another prisoner, or other prisoners
            I’m certain the Irish Prison Authorities know how to manage
            And maintain prisoner safety as best they can

            If a prisoner is dangerous, and a risk to women, or anyone – including themselves
            Then they’re dangerous and a risk to women, or anyone – including themselves
            wherever they are

            Please don’t drag me into this identify argument
            You’re wasting your time tbh

            If you’ve a problem with
            Tolerance and Equality
            Sure gimme what you’ve got

            Otherwise, I’m not biting

  4. v AKA Frilly Keane

    I’m not sure Amnesty International Ireland knows what it’s there for anymore tbh
    Maybe it’s trying to be active on too many fronts

    It would have been nice to see more work getting Journalists out of Prison during the Pandemic
    Since some have apparently died of Covid 19 within prison outbreaks

    and its current CEO courts too much limelight
    IMO

    That’s just me

    1. TessFlynn

      It is remarkable for Amnesty to be supporting the the oppression of free speech and for them to sign a letter painting everyone with a questioning viewpoint as right wing.

      1. Toby

        Wherever there is money and public adoration, you will find Amnesty. They used to be a great organisation before they became grant chasers and sold their soul

        1. SRipley

          At least the founder of Amnesty’s granddaughter has spoken out on it. Helps that she’s out and proud too. Should highlight the absolute hypocrisy and god awfulness of this move.

      2. SRipley

        Surely this applies to virtually everyone in Ireland? The letter literally condemns anyone who “defends biology”. That everyone who says there is a meaningful biological distinction between trans men and men and vice versa should be suppressed and denied representation. Doesnt matter that they treat everyone equally and with dignity, its transphobic according to them acnkowledge and state a biological distinction and question the affect that may have on issues like placements in prison, or in collecting data for medical research and so forth.

        It’s literally what’s being argued under the trans banner elsewhere. The ACLU’s most high profile trans advocate has written multiple articles declaring it medically inaccurate and dangerous to say that trans women are anything other than “biological women”. Who in Ireland truly believes, on a fundamental level that entirely female anatomy can be declared that of a “biological man”? That’s insanity. I refuse to believe most transpeople are the delusional.

    2. Nigel

      Amnesty International do a lot of things you might be unaware of if you confibe yourself to Broadsheet coverage of their activities.

  5. Johnnythree

    I’m thankfully oblivious to anything outside of man, woman, gay, straight or bi. Jaysis the wokeness.

  6. Toby

    Could someone please explain how such a tiny minority got such a loud megaphone. Surely there are more persecuted groups for O Gorman to be worried about, or is it the funding that makes him care. Serious question.

      1. Toby

        Im not aware of trans people being persecuted in Ireland. If calling them by the wrong name is the same as some of the other injustices we see, fair enough.

        But my point was, how does an issue that represents less than 1% of the community result in such clamour and noise, when so many issues that affect many more people get hardly any mention.

        Serious question if any one has the answer.

          1. SOQ

            The two biggest pains in the ass of this authoritarian woke nonsense are Douglas Murray- author of The Madness of Crowds mentioned above- and Andrew Doyle, who created the comic character Titania McGrath.

            BOTH are out gay men.

          2. Micko

            Like I said – Marmite ;)

            I found it interesting SOQ. Wouldn’t say I enjoyed it exactly.

            Interesting though.

          3. Nigel

            When you’re calling the minority group being picked on ‘authoritarian’ while at the same time wondering curiously if the presdient of the USA might have the ‘evidence’ needed to overturn a democratic election, then something is out of whack.

        1. Nigel

          Weird that in a thread supposedly about freedom of speech we have someone complaining that a minority is getting too much of it.

          1. Toby

            No Nige, I asked why they are getting more attention than people who are actually persecuted. Is it because there is more funding for it?

            So once again, what makes a subject that affects a tiny minority become such a loud noise,

            Why do the trans movement have a particular knack of pi++ing so many people off? I only know two trans people myself and they are as non-plussed as I am. Much more flamboyantly obvs. They roll their fabulous eyelashes at the noise.

          2. Nigel

            ‘Why do the trans movement have a particular knack of pi++ing so many people off?’

            Reminds me of a comment I saw about the Jews, and how if someone annoyed so many people, maybe the problem was them, not the people they annoyed.

          3. Toby

            yes Nigel, we are all interested in your war stories! Knighting takes it out of you etc etc.. You are great and kind and you CARE!! Where would the Jews be without you? Asks no-one ever…

            Now, focus on the questions good lad.

            Why do the trans people get a disproportionate attention to their numbers or their suffering?

            Why do trans activists p++ so many people off if they claim they are trying to build allies?

          4. Toby

            Hmm, thanks for the response.

            I would say the trans fault line is the hill that liberals have chosen to die on. Because I see a much bigger support for their cause than the suffering warrants.

            There are many peoples who are much more persecuted, but we never see the same level of passion for their cause. Roma gypsies, people with disabilities, women in Arab countries, – so I think the trans issue is a torch for a broader argument.,

          5. Nigel

            What gets a lot of attention is not necessarily the sum total of what’s going on. It’s not trans people or their allies that have made the issue high-profile. You almost certainly know the names of ‘gender critical’ antagonists who are not trans rather than the names of any relatively famous trans individuals critical of them.

          6. SOQ

            Nigel

            You are not gay

            You are not trans

            You are not black

            You are definitely not poor

            How about you hold your nose and go talk to us before appointing yourself our spokesperson?

          7. Nigel

            You don’t know me. Having said that, I’d love to, but clearly trans people can’t count on you to stand up for them.

          8. Ian-Oh

            @Toby – “they roll their fabulous eyelashes at the noise”?

            Its funny, any trans women I know are just women. Normal, ordinary women. Odd how all those critical of trans people always seem to know cliched variants of them.

            Real trans women generally act and carry on like most women, the whole “fabulousness” shtick coupled with the allusions to a caustic weariness is more the domain of transvestites and drag queens.

      2. Andrew

        Daisy is a deluded foot soldier in a campaign of misogyny and erosion of women’s rights.
        Colm O’Gorman is interested in Colm O’Gorman and I would seriously question his fitness for the role as head of Amnesty in Ireland.

        1. Nigel

          It’s astonishing the people who suddenly get mad about misogyny and women’s rights in relation to the one group of people least likely to be misogynostic or a threat to women;s rights.

          1. Noblelocks

            It’s astonishing to us that for someone who clearly has eyes like you, you are so utterly blind to that which is right in front of your face.

            The day where you are no longer going to be able to ignore the man behind the curtain is fast approaching.

          2. millie

            If the man behind the curtain knitted it himself does it still exist? Are socks a secret species?

            All this and more on Vagaries and Somesuch today!

          3. SRipley

            “the one group of people least likely to be misogynostic or a threat to women;s rights”

            What nonsense is this? The present discourse is defining women out of existence as a political class. That’s a massive threat to women’s rights. There’s literally been high court cases in the western world where discrimination against breast feeding mothers were denied on the basis of the fact that it couldn’t be sex based discrimination when technically speaking , in certain circumstances, men can lactate too. Obliterating biological differences to validate a minority of a minority (because most trans people don’t seem to describe to this insanity) has far more severe consequences for women than men. But make no mistake there are consequences for all. I cannot see anyone here calling for trans people to be forced back in the closet or eradicated, but rewriting reality to appease this cohort and their “allies” is a slippery slope.

          4. Nigel

            I can see that trans people threaten women the way gay marriage threatened marriage and gay wedding cakes threatened freedom of religion. ‘Slipoery slope’ is regarded as a logical fallacy for a reason.

  7. Noblelocks

    @daisy and all trans supporters

    If trans women are women then my skoda is a mercedes. You can lie to yourself all you like, but the moment you tell me I must lie to myself to suit your wants too…. well it’s a two word answer right there

    I stand for womens rights.
    I stand with Mia Forstater for free speech.
    I stand with Seline Soule, Alannah Smith and Martina Navratilova for fair sports representation
    I stand with the female MMA fighter who had her skull crushed by a trans man pretending to be a women
    I stand with Maria MacLachlain against trans male violence
    I stand with Kate Coleman on prisoner reform and the removal of predatory AGP men from women’s prisons
    I stand with Claire Graham and the others in the intersex alliance who have openly asked for the I to be removed from the ridiculous alphabet acronym because they don’t want to be used by the T
    I stand with the growing parents organizations around the world who voices are growing ever louder
    I stand against the Canadian setup that will allow “trans” children to be taken (Kidnapped) from their parents if their parents disagree with the childs temporary wants (temporary wants with permanent consequences)
    I stand with the Swedish producers of the documentary Trans Train who, after airing saw the refferals to trans clinics in Sweden drop by two thirds overnight
    I stand against the Lie that trans are somehow “the most vulnerable”, 3 women a day are killed in the UK alone. If it were the same for trans there’d be none left. Stop the trans lying.
    I stand with the BBC amongst others for removing Mermaids as a source of trusted info
    I stand against Mermaids which really exists to erase the gay from it’s patients and redeem the parents who are mostly muchausen sufferers
    I stand with the dozens of doctors and nurses who have resigned in despair from the Gulag of Tavistock
    I stand with the doctors who have refused to conduct medical experiments on children and said No when asked for hormones
    I stand with the LGB Alliance because they can see straight through the T, and the T HATE them for it
    I stand with my gay friends, male and female who look on with horror knowing that only for the year of their birth they could have been caught up with this horror show cult too

    And finally I stand with Kiera Bell who is in court desperately trying to prove that a child cannot make life altering decisions. Her brave work with finally put legally binding definitions on the wriggling lies of “trans” so that they cannot shift the goal posts constantly and will finally have to defend their indefensible, child medical experiementation horrors.

    I could go on forever with that list, I really could there’s so much more to say… but change is coming, not soon enough for many but it is coming nonetheless.

    1. Ian-Oh

      Maybe after all that standing you might need a sit down and a nice cup of tea?

      Now, thanks for the persecution roll call, full marks for adhering to the script. I see you’ve shoe horned all the emotive phrases in there too: horror, cult, kidnap, gulag and so on.

      No interest in getting into an argument about it, clearly your mind is made up, but my two cents are that this sort of “they’re coming for your kids” hysterical bullcrap didn’t work when they said it about gay people, its not working now.

      But keep on with the “just wait and see….” stuff, you remind me of Trump and his QAnon loopers. Always on the cusp, never quite there. Most young people are incredibly accepting of trans gender people and they will be the ones who be ignoring your ranting into the future. Not me. And that dribble above will not wash with them.

      1. Noblelocks

        Lol… and all we get is slurs disguised as arguments. Accusations of hysteria and lofty virtue signalling :) And I love the way you accuse me of emotive phrases too.

        Lets talk turkey then.
        Do you agree with the medical experimentation of children?

        Do you argree with the removal of healthy breast tissue without parental consent or knowledge based on the want of a child who wouldn’t even be allowed to walk to school alone?

        You think that “most young people are incredibly accepting of Trans”, I say there is a generation who’ve been fed lies and they are not fools and they will figure it out.

        1. Iian-Oh

          Absolutely. I’m look forward to children with wings next.

          Although I do worry about the attrition rate during the testing phase.

          1. Noblelocks

            And back to the slurs. You really are a master of debate aren’t you? :) I see you neatly side-stepped my questions too. How very brave of you.

            Noble: Here’s the ugly truth about the mutilation of children: what do you think?

            Iian-Oh: children with wings blah blah blah.

            What’s the opposite of bravery again… oh yeah, its you.

          2. Iian-Oh

            Crying incessantly about “slurs” then trying to be amusing by using the phrase “master of debating”. Talking about human experimentation and gulags like they are helpful routes to expansive debate.

            I see.

            And you wonder why I’m not engaging seriously with you?

            Maybe leave the attempts to equate the issue with topics like the holocaust and people might not be so dismissive.

            Until then, space monkeys. Or, as it would appear by your typo with my username, Thundercats.

      1. Noblelocks

        That’s it is it?

        And once again, when faced with the reality of what is ACTUALLY happening, right now, actual demonstrable facts…the TRA have Nothing. Absolutely Nothing.

        The funny thing is it’s the Gay community who can’t see how they are most at risk from this ideology. 20 years ago a young gay man, perhaps a effeminate young man was just Gay. Now…. well now you have a good chance of being told you’re actually a woman and here’s some puberty blockers that will destroy your ability to ever have an orgasm and will make you a medical ward of the state for the rest of your life.

        Oh and if you’re a girl, these wonderful blockers will give you a hysterectomy in your 20’s and early onset menopause with all the great things that this brings when you’re late 20’s early 30’s like osteoperosis. Don’t believe me? Watch Trans Train yourself. Or are you scared your beliefs cannot withstand debate?

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          Not all trans men have hysterectomies. There have been recent stories about trans men coming off their hormone treatment in order to have a baby. Isn’t modern science brilliant?

          1. Noblelocks

            Yeah I know, hilarious wasn’t it ? Men having babies, this is how utterly delusional they are….

            History has not been kind to people who turn a blind eye to medical experimentation on children. We had people who did that before and they’re not viewed very well at all are they?

            I suppose it comes down to wether or not you have the balls to see things as they really are or betray your sisters and their children at the alter of political correctness.

          2. Nigel

            Children are not being subjected to medical experiments, this is an ugly transphobic blood-libel. God, the hate is palpable.

          3. Daisy Chainsaw

            If I had balls, wouldn’t that make me a man, in your eyes? And how would you react if you saw a trans man (a “delusional” woman according to you) leaving the ladies loo which is where the gc transphobes want him to go? Would you believe him if he said he has, or used to have a vagina? Would you demand to see it?

            By the way, what are these “experiments” you say are being performed on children and are they being done against the children’s will?

      1. Noblelocks

        Was that you’re answer when you discovered what the state had done to the women in the Magdelene Laudries? Was that your answer when you discovered the immense creulty of the industrial schools?

        I’d bet you condemned those who turned a blind eye to the suffering of children in these institutions, I’d bet you were incandescent with rage when you heard about how these children were starved, used as slaves, tortured and raped.

        Yet when the barbaric medical experimentation using children is right in front of your own two eyes the very best you can do is say “that’s nice”? Grotesque

          1. Noblelocks

            “Children are not being subjected to medical experiments”

            This is, yet again, more deception and demonstrably untrue.

            It is illegal to conduct medical experiements on children. Therefore issuing any drugs where the outcome is unknown is experimentation. The medical community only a few months ago admitted that they couldn’t say for sure any more that puberty blockers could be reversed. And they can’t as thousands of innocent children are desperatly trying to reverse their “Transition” after the permanent damage is done.

            “this is an ugly transphobic blood-libel. ”

            Standard TRA response. Accuse those who dare to disagree with you of terrible hate crimes and NEVER respond to the argument. It’s so cowardly and pathetic it would be laughable if the stakes weren’t so high. Save your “I’m loosing the argument better insert an accusation” childish nonsense for someone who actually believes you have some integrity left.

            “God, the hate is palpable.” Hate of what? Where have I said that I hate anything? I’ve told you what I stand for. and who I stand against. But nowhere have I said anything about any people. Yet more false accusations and misrepresentations? How very TRA of you.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      The Irish one is the same as the UK one. It’s a foreign astroterf campaign with lots of twitter accounts run from the same gmail address.

          1. SRipley

            Cop on, Daisy. The account is co-run by a lesbian couple in Donegal along with other Irish citizens. One half of the couple was previously a transman and detransitioned. They’re also parents. So between living here, having actual experience of being offered affirmation only trans treatment in response to dysphoria, the use of literature for kids by BeLonG To that redefines lesbians like them as “mostly” attracted to women and not same-sex attracted, and the fact that puberty blockers are being prescribed to kids despite it being an off label use of serious medication with no studies or regulation on such a use, it’s safe to say they more than have a dog in this fight. Stop spreading lies.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            That’s a whole lot of niche there SRipley! What are the chances that an anti trans group with links to pro gay conversion, religious,homophobic and anti choice groups would be run by a detransitioned lesbian?

          3. SOQ

            And there we have it folks- a straight woman accusing gay women of being homophobic.

            We truly have come full circle.

        1. Oro

          Welllllll are you not gonna reply now that Daisy posted the link with the evidence you requested (very informative Daisy btw thank you)?

          Or does the link so clearly mark your argument as incorrect that you’ve just dropped it?

  8. Junkface

    Wow! This thread. It’s a perfect example of why this issue takes up so much oxygen on social media. People cannot listen to each others concerns without being called a bigot. That’s not healthy. I mean obviously there are concerns from a mental health position, and especially when we are talking about teenagers making life decisions when they don’t yet have the maturity. We should respect peoples life choices if they want to change gender, but we should not be dictating to everyone else that not complying with the new terminology of the movement can land you in legal troubles. That’s crazy. Young teens going through all of this too soon (as they latch on to trends) and maybe doing irreparable damage to themselves for life is a serious issue.

    I would consider watching this interview with Jonathan Haidt on the subject:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG6HbWw2RF4&ab_channel=PowerfulJRE

    There is also Dr. Deborah Soh book on this, as well as Abigail Shrier.

    1. Charger Salmons

      THE LGBTMBGGT community has nothing to fear from us heterosexuals.
      They’re too busy fighting amongst themselves.
      Everyone else just looks at the handbags at dawn, shrugs their shoulders and says ‘ meh,whatever ‘ .

    2. f_lawless

      “People cannot listen to each others concerns without being called a bigot. That’s not healthy. I mean obviously there are concerns from a mental health position..,”

      Hey, just a quick heads up – as I recall, over on another thread you labelled 40 million Americans as “Qanon nut jobs”. Could it be time for a little self-reflection?

  9. V AKA Frilly Keane

    Since Colm O’Gorman brought it up himself
    they are not organisations at all, they have no governance, no accountability

    I’m just wondering now – did his own Board approve
    And sign off on this letter
    Before he issued it on behalf of Amnesty (International) Ireland

    Anyone?

  10. Noblelocks

    @Iian-Oh Still no response to the questions, excuses and dodging, how very brave of you.

    Tell me, do you dodge all questions, or is it just the ones that involve child medical experimentation at the alter of Trans wants? Is your ideology so important to you that you’re willing to ignore this?

    Ahh but then I’m forgetting, I thought for a second I was dealing with a person who has an open mind and not a closed one. I thought for a moment you were someone who would put the most vulnerable first, I thought for a moment that you could be honest, at least to yourself, but you’ve sold your integrity so you can think you look “correct” to people on the internet. I hope, for your sake, its worth it.

  11. Scundered

    It really is a can of worms, but the debacle has the potential to do so much damage to women especially in sports, this must surely be overturned or give a separate category for transgender people, I feel so bad for the girl in this video who does not stand a chance of achieving her goals now because of some leftist ideology that allows transgenders to compete against biological women in sport. Who allowed that to happen?

    https://youtu.be/-BuV-s1SYLk

      1. Scundered

        Every industry has caught the lefty virtue signalling fever, in the hope of getting a pat on the head for being so accepting whilst ignoring the monster they create, and yes this particular topic is very much left leaning, it’s hardly a right leaning issue. That is not the same as saying the industry is leftist, but it’s not surprising that you deliberately misunderstand this.

          1. Scundered

            Do you think there is no issue so? That it’s grand to allow people born as male and grew up with the massive advantages of testosterone in athletic ability, to compete against women?

            Being open minded and accepting is all well and good, most people would agree it’s a good thing to be, but it should be acknowledged that in this case it is incredibly damaging to women, who will most likely never be able to beat records set by the biological men. The women deserve equality.

          2. Nigel

            Been grand for decades, as has trans women using women’s toilets and shelters. Never a problem. True solidarity. Suddenly BOOM. Right wing culture war attack drones set it all on fire. So, yes. This is on the right.

          3. Scundered

            “Right wing culture war attack drones”
            LOLZ

            Your separation from reality is something to behold, if a woman complains that there’s a person with a willy in the changing rooms she would be rendered a right winger? No, it’s just common sense to know this is dangerous.

    1. Oro

      Oh yes sports, where the mistreatment of women and / or suggestion of inequality towards women in sports is 1) all of a sudden a problem and 2) the fault of….transwomen. How convenient! It’s almost like men are using this as an opportunity to shrug their awful treatment of women, or at least distract away from it. Interestingly enough all the commenters in this thread complaining about trans people are……men.

      1. Scundered

        Can you at least try and debate the topic instead of going off on some random moan about men…

        So what do you think about biological women competing against biological transgender men in high level sports?

        1. Oro

          Well first of all transgender men are men who were born biologically female sex. So I think you’re confused on that. Regarding the gerneral sports question, it seems like something where a technical understanding is required before offering an opinion and I don’t feel sufficiently armed with enough info on all the variables.

          My point still stands, a lot of men moaning about trans people in sports never moaned about the inequality women face in sports until now, and it just so happens to conveniently align with their general anti-trans beliefs doesn’t it. I don’t think we’ll see the same men marching for equal pay for women in sports, and funnily enough i’d say they’d be more likely to march against it.

          1. Scundered

            Well we disagree on the issue of what is biological so, because if they are biologically female they would not produce ten times the testosterone that the average female does. To say they are biologically the same is just not scientifically true. It is denying science.

            So what if some men didn’t get vocal until now, at the same time womens rights have progressed all around the world, pushed by predominantly male political partys. Men are not your enemy and if an issue brings unity we should be happy about that and seek that as a goal, unless one was happier to see only bitterness and division.

          2. Oro

            Ok you keep confusing the terms. You said ‘biologically transgender man’ meaning someone born biologically of the male sex. But what I’m saying is that your terminology is incorrect, a transgender man refers to a person born as a female in terms of their biological sex, but who has transition to, andl is living as a man.

            Women’s rights have not been advance by ‘men’s political parties’, rather the advancement of women’s rights, as pushed by women’s groups, if anything has been slowed by men’s groups. Also I’m not sure if you can figure it out but the reason in the first place that that had to occur is because women’s rights were (and still are) restricted by (you guessed it) men.

          3. Scundered

            It sounds to me that you’ve never studied myology, I have. There are huge differences in the testosterone levels that would give a biological male physical advantages over a biological woman. Granted I shouldn’t have used the term biological transgender male which is contradictory, what I meant by that is someone who is born a biological male who then identifies as a woman later in life, they will have gained massive physical advantages regarding many sports, and to place them in the same race as biological women goes against scientific equality. Do you believe it is fair?

            I don’t know the company you keep, but absolutely all the men I know support womens rights, in fact I can’t remember any who thought that women must be denied having the same rights as men. It sounds like you have chosen to see the world in a certain way, and no amount of facts will change that.

          4. Oro

            I’m not suggesting that your individual man friends are anti-woman, or that mine are either. But what is true is that women were and are subjected to inequality, and the systems that disadvantage women, are advantageous to men. Why would women have to fight against inequality if things were equal. And women weren’t being held down by other women.

            What also is true is the MRAs tend to also be anti-trans (more than your typical person would), right wing, anti-feminism and homophobic.

          5. Nigel

            You want women to unite with men against trans people as the price of advancing women’s rights? There’s a bargain straight from the devil’s steaming rectum, and yet it sums up what’s going with terfs and lgb groups perfectly.

          6. Scundered

            Nigel, I have no interest in your drivel and repetitive misunderstandings, your translation of what is being discussed is way off the mark, but sadly predictable. In every post you miss the point, am sure you can find something more productive to do in life than be a full-time troll.

          7. Nigel

            ‘Men are not your enemy and if an issue brings unity we should be happy about that and seek that as a goal, unless one was happier to see only bitterness and division.’

            If you don’t mean it, don’t say it.

  12. Noblelocks

    @Daisy Chainsaw

    [quote]”If I had balls, wouldn’t that make me a man, in your eyes? And how would you react if you saw a trans man”[/quote] Oh jesus… here we go, the intersex fallacy is coming steaming into Daisytown… you lot REALLY are going to have to come up with new arguments you know that don’t you? I mean they’re being picked apart one by one by people far smarter than you or I but the least you could do is keep up girl. If you want to get an answer to the intersex fallacy then all you have to do is watch Clare Graham of the intersex alliance talk about it and how she and her colleagues have written to many T organisations asking them to stop using intersex people in their arguments.

    I’m quite frankly amazed that you think you can ask me or anyone else questions about what we believe when you point blank refuse to engage with the questions I asked you in the first place. As we would say, “the effin brazen cheek of ye”. Or have you no integrity at all about ya?

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