Why on earth did the DPP prosecute for murder in that tragic case of the mother who killed her children, when all the medics pronounced her insane? It must have been unbearable for the families to have to relive it.
newsjustin
I’m not sure insanity comes into it in the DPP deciding to prosecute. Insanity is a defence/mitigation to be shown in court rather than a claim that a crime didn’t happen.
Tinytim
My understanding is that ‘insanity’ is purely a legal definition, the medics would have used clinical terms defining the particular mental issues/faculties at play..upon which a decision for trial is made solely by the judge.
Lilly
True, but isn’t the DPP meant to assess the case and proceed only where there’s a reasonable chance of successful prosecution. All the medical evidence in this suggests otherwise.
Cian
In this case (and all such cases) it is up to the jury to decide, based on the evidence provided, her guilt.
They may find her guilty of murder.
They may find a diminished responsibility – i.e. guilty of manslaughter
They may find her not guilty by reason of insanity.
They may find her innocent.
There might even be a hung jury
Janet, dreams of an alternate universe
irony that on the same day as they bang on about a model Mum on another front page,party girl to model Mum as if such a thing exists, good article in The Guardian on the unrealistic pressures and mental health of Mother’s, The parent trap and why the cult of the perfect Mother has to end
In the UK, half of all mothers develop a mental health problem before or after birth, according to the National Childbirth Trust (NCT). And 10% to 15% experience postnatal depression; many researchers believe the prevalence is even higher. Around 30% of domestic abuse begins in pregnancy. Suicide is the leading cause of death for mothers during their baby’s first year. Research commissioned by the Red Cross and the Co-op in 2016 found that nearly half of mothers under 30 feel lonely often or all the time; 82% feel lonely some of the time. Fewer than 7% of couples, according to a 2019 study from University College London, split the domestic load – let alone the mental load – equally. Most mothers work part time, where pay is lower and prospects for promotion are reduced by more than half
Not for the 1st time Mick Clifford is reporting on prosecutions involving garda currently before the Courts and yet again quoting a different retired senior officer on the unfairness of it all. ( This is 3rd one incidentally).
You are a hack Mick , not a judge and you do not have access to prosecution side so very biased article .
f_lawless
This article is a bit of a litmus test. Written by the associate editor of the Independent, Sean O’Grady:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antivaxxers-vaccine-coronavirus-nhs-b1849437.html
” the time has come when the hard choices are looming closer..No jab, no job; no jab, no access to NHS healthcare; no jab, no state education for your kids. No jab, no access to pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, stadiums. No jab, no entry to the UK, and much else...everyone who refuses a vaccine could be a killer on the loose, and should be judged accordingly“
If you see it as a reasonable article rather an absolutely outrageous, sinister piece of propaganda that is attempting to set members of the UK public against each other by whipping up fear, resentment and hatred, then I would suggest you may already be in the grip of a kind of mass hysteria and no longer thinking rationally
Steph Pinker
The HSE records include public and private health information.
This cac storm hasn’t even started.
Forget about treatment for any aspect of health until the ransom is paid – covid included – because if the incompetence of HSE as an institution hasn’t already been outed over the past 20 years as a casino for taxpayers money, it never will be.
I feel for those who are sick, ill with terminal diseases, and for those who can’t get out of bed in the morning, providing one has a roof over one’s head – as opposed to a tent by the canal.
Ironically, the really sad aspect of this is that most people will vote FFG again because they’re terrified of another series of lockdowns.
Tinytim
There are many bad things one can say about the HSE, and many take joy in doing so. I have worked a with enough large businesses to know the reality is the same everywhere…Significant parts of their unpatched or EOL.
It is important to remember that whatever we may agree about their failure in ‘the cost of doing business’ or their ‘professional responsibilities’ — that a crime was committed, and the HSE is victim.
We think of cybercrime differently unfortunately..the digital equivalent of FG policy on bikes – lock it or lose it.
I personally think that needs to change.
ce
They don’t actual know the cause of the hack – in might not have anything to do with the operating system. In any event, all Windows OS systems are extremely vulnerable to such attacks… and there are several important software programs that all health care systems use that only work on Windows, so this will always be an issue.
Serious question – what can your health data be used for, beyond the example AK raised in the Dáil… “we hear you have x would you like to come get treatment?” The company who sent this offer is using stolen property, so they could be sanctioned for this – although in this case they are not in Ireland – should they offer services in the state. But again, what can this data really be used for other than creating fear from the person it was stolen from?
Our personal data.. what is that actually worth in such a small country. In the US such data allows you to do a lot of things…. but how can such Irish data be used to any great effect without relatively quickly drawing attention to the fact it is being used illegally? Now is a great time to issue new PPS and health identifying number and make a lot of what was stolen irrelevant… cue tin-foil hats….
It was a crime – yes digital literacy and services throughout the public and private sector in Ireland is awful – but it was a crime.
Rob_G
Serious question – what can your health data be used for, beyond the example AK raised in the Dáil… “we hear you have x would you like to come get treatment?”’
You don’t have the faintest clue what you are talking about; if you have an unencrypted database of hundreds of thousands of names, DOBs, addresses, email addresses, etc, there are literally thousands of nefarious purposes it can be put to.
ce
“You don’t have the faintest clue what you are talking about; if you have an unencrypted database of hundreds of thousands of names, DOBs, addresses, email addresses, etc, there are literally thousands of nefarious purposes it can be put to.” –
It’s was a question, so enlighten me, seriously I don’t know exactly what it can be used for, I’d like to know 10 use case that would have a serious impact of daily life? I’m sure there are some, but I’m not sure how large a real world impact it can have, given the country we live in
Also, and any company that buys or simply uses this data also commits a crime
Rob_G
It’s not going to be healthcare providers using this stolen database
UC1:
I purchase the stolen HSE database (which contains the email address ‘ce@broadsheet.ie’)
I write a simple program that looks for matches with all of the emails on the HSE database against all of the other thousands of pwned databases.
‘ce@broadsheet.ie’ has appeared on another stolen database – and it seems that this database also has an uhashed password for this email address – great!
I now have both the email and a password for ce@broadsheet.ie – I write another programme that uses these credentials to attempt to login to hundreds of websites (as people often reuse passwords) – online banking, paypal, gmail, amazon, etc, etc etc…
Janet, dreams of an alternate universe
+ good time to change your basic logins
Rosette of Sirius
And wait till they realise that one of those key records tied to said medical record is a PPS number….
You know, that single most important unique identifier you have.
ce
That I understand – but the personal data stolen from the HSE allows somebody to take loans out in my name, set up a pay pal etc… maybe I apply for a visa somewhere and they say “hey we think your a terrorist”… or somebody gets into an email and uses it for a better phishing scam and eventually gets credit card or bank details etc.. When this happens in the US and other countries, due to how their credit rating, taxes etc. work, it has a massive impact on your life – even the smallest leak of personal data can quickly spiral into a disaster, I know plenty of people it has happend to, especially in small businesses. But I’m not sure it has such a huge impact in Ireland on Irish citizens. Doesn’t mean it’s nice, and ultimately people are greatly suffering because urgent medical info is not accessible, but in terms of personal data, in Ireland, I don’t think the stakes are quite the same as other countries. The commercial HSE data is significantly larger problem – any company that has it’s data stolen is in a whole other level of a nightmare.
But nobody outside of Ireland cares what your PPS is… and it’s pretty easy to establish your identity here (if you were born here) …. I think a priest can still sign your passport form…! and resolves issues with missuse of a PPS… which is not the case in other jurisdictions.
Rob_G
Do you think if the government was made up of some other configuration of parties, civil servants will magically become more IT-literate and stop clicking on dodgy links from emails from unknown sources?
It emerged recently that SF has a database containing personal data on millions of voters, and yet had no Data Protection Officer; I’m afraid that ignorance around protection of personal data is a cross-party issue.
ce
“civil servants will magically become more IT-literate and stop clicking on dodgy links from emails from unknown sources?”…. hahaha,
Well when we’ve all been chipped post-vaccine Bill Gates will make sure we don’t… as long as the chips don’t crash or get hacked…
After you’re vaccinated, every time you wake up in the morning you’ll faintly here the windows start up jingle…
SOQ
It is highly unlikely that ransomware came from a dodgy link because even the HSE would have had basic security on the local machines and, I would hope, some level of distance between their various networks.
What is much more likely is that the hackers had access to those systems for an unknown period of time before they released the ransomware- and that it was set off in a location to do maximum damage. In which case, they also had time to copy whatever records they wished- for whatever purpose.
Just on the dark net trawls- the media love to scaremonger but this is now standard practice not only after an attack, but as part of an ongoing security strategy. There are specialist companies who do it for a monthly fee- it is proactive rather than reactive and is recommended, especially if the attack results in an insurance claim.
On the subject of GDPR- the HSE are now obliged to contact every single person who could be identified from the data stored within the affected systems, the collation of which will be a massive task in itself. GDPR is quite specific as how that list should be gathered and how it is to be reviewed- I doubt if an exercise of that scale has ever been attempted before.
Formerly known as @ireland.com
The Daily Express – if they didn’t commit a crime, they have nothing to fear. It is the British justice system, after all.
millie bobby brownie
Yeah, the Express is a mad paper altogether. I always imagine that the folk who buy it are also the ones who go out bedecked in head-to-toe union jacks. You know the type. Still think WWII only ended a decade or so ago.
That headline though. Typical lack of self-awareness from the Brits.
SOQ
I missed this yesterday- Pat Kenny interviewed Michael Mina, Epidemiologist, Immunologist, Physician, Harvard Public Health/Medical School on rapid antigen tests.
Why on earth did the DPP prosecute for murder in that tragic case of the mother who killed her children, when all the medics pronounced her insane? It must have been unbearable for the families to have to relive it.
I’m not sure insanity comes into it in the DPP deciding to prosecute. Insanity is a defence/mitigation to be shown in court rather than a claim that a crime didn’t happen.
My understanding is that ‘insanity’ is purely a legal definition, the medics would have used clinical terms defining the particular mental issues/faculties at play..upon which a decision for trial is made solely by the judge.
True, but isn’t the DPP meant to assess the case and proceed only where there’s a reasonable chance of successful prosecution. All the medical evidence in this suggests otherwise.
In this case (and all such cases) it is up to the jury to decide, based on the evidence provided, her guilt.
They may find her guilty of murder.
They may find a diminished responsibility – i.e. guilty of manslaughter
They may find her not guilty by reason of insanity.
They may find her innocent.
There might even be a hung jury
irony that on the same day as they bang on about a model Mum on another front page,party girl to model Mum as if such a thing exists, good article in The Guardian on the unrealistic pressures and mental health of Mother’s, The parent trap and why the cult of the perfect Mother has to end
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/18/parent-trap-why-the-cult-of-the-perfect-mother-has-to-end
an excerpt with interesting stats
In the UK, half of all mothers develop a mental health problem before or after birth, according to the National Childbirth Trust (NCT). And 10% to 15% experience postnatal depression; many researchers believe the prevalence is even higher. Around 30% of domestic abuse begins in pregnancy. Suicide is the leading cause of death for mothers during their baby’s first year. Research commissioned by the Red Cross and the Co-op in 2016 found that nearly half of mothers under 30 feel lonely often or all the time; 82% feel lonely some of the time. Fewer than 7% of couples, according to a 2019 study from University College London, split the domestic load – let alone the mental load – equally. Most mothers work part time, where pay is lower and prospects for promotion are reduced by more than half
I read that yesterday. Very good piece.
Not for the 1st time Mick Clifford is reporting on prosecutions involving garda currently before the Courts and yet again quoting a different retired senior officer on the unfairness of it all. ( This is 3rd one incidentally).
You are a hack Mick , not a judge and you do not have access to prosecution side so very biased article .
This article is a bit of a litmus test. Written by the associate editor of the Independent, Sean O’Grady:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antivaxxers-vaccine-coronavirus-nhs-b1849437.html
” the time has come when the hard choices are looming closer..No jab, no job; no jab, no access to NHS healthcare; no jab, no state education for your kids. No jab, no access to pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas, stadiums. No jab, no entry to the UK, and much else...everyone who refuses a vaccine could be a killer on the loose, and should be judged accordingly“
If you see it as a reasonable article rather an absolutely outrageous, sinister piece of propaganda that is attempting to set members of the UK public against each other by whipping up fear, resentment and hatred, then I would suggest you may already be in the grip of a kind of mass hysteria and no longer thinking rationally
The HSE records include public and private health information.
This cac storm hasn’t even started.
Forget about treatment for any aspect of health until the ransom is paid – covid included – because if the incompetence of HSE as an institution hasn’t already been outed over the past 20 years as a casino for taxpayers money, it never will be.
I feel for those who are sick, ill with terminal diseases, and for those who can’t get out of bed in the morning, providing one has a roof over one’s head – as opposed to a tent by the canal.
Ironically, the really sad aspect of this is that most people will vote FFG again because they’re terrified of another series of lockdowns.
There are many bad things one can say about the HSE, and many take joy in doing so. I have worked a with enough large businesses to know the reality is the same everywhere…Significant parts of their unpatched or EOL.
It is important to remember that whatever we may agree about their failure in ‘the cost of doing business’ or their ‘professional responsibilities’ — that a crime was committed, and the HSE is victim.
We think of cybercrime differently unfortunately..the digital equivalent of FG policy on bikes – lock it or lose it.
I personally think that needs to change.
They don’t actual know the cause of the hack – in might not have anything to do with the operating system. In any event, all Windows OS systems are extremely vulnerable to such attacks… and there are several important software programs that all health care systems use that only work on Windows, so this will always be an issue.
Serious question – what can your health data be used for, beyond the example AK raised in the Dáil… “we hear you have x would you like to come get treatment?” The company who sent this offer is using stolen property, so they could be sanctioned for this – although in this case they are not in Ireland – should they offer services in the state. But again, what can this data really be used for other than creating fear from the person it was stolen from?
Our personal data.. what is that actually worth in such a small country. In the US such data allows you to do a lot of things…. but how can such Irish data be used to any great effect without relatively quickly drawing attention to the fact it is being used illegally? Now is a great time to issue new PPS and health identifying number and make a lot of what was stolen irrelevant… cue tin-foil hats….
It was a crime – yes digital literacy and services throughout the public and private sector in Ireland is awful – but it was a crime.
Serious question – what can your health data be used for, beyond the example AK raised in the Dáil… “we hear you have x would you like to come get treatment?”’
You don’t have the faintest clue what you are talking about; if you have an unencrypted database of hundreds of thousands of names, DOBs, addresses, email addresses, etc, there are literally thousands of nefarious purposes it can be put to.
“You don’t have the faintest clue what you are talking about; if you have an unencrypted database of hundreds of thousands of names, DOBs, addresses, email addresses, etc, there are literally thousands of nefarious purposes it can be put to.” –
It’s was a question, so enlighten me, seriously I don’t know exactly what it can be used for, I’d like to know 10 use case that would have a serious impact of daily life? I’m sure there are some, but I’m not sure how large a real world impact it can have, given the country we live in
Also, and any company that buys or simply uses this data also commits a crime
It’s not going to be healthcare providers using this stolen database
UC1:
I purchase the stolen HSE database (which contains the email address ‘ce@broadsheet.ie’)
I write a simple program that looks for matches with all of the emails on the HSE database against all of the other thousands of pwned databases.
‘ce@broadsheet.ie’ has appeared on another stolen database – and it seems that this database also has an uhashed password for this email address – great!
I now have both the email and a password for ce@broadsheet.ie – I write another programme that uses these credentials to attempt to login to hundreds of websites (as people often reuse passwords) – online banking, paypal, gmail, amazon, etc, etc etc…
+ good time to change your basic logins
And wait till they realise that one of those key records tied to said medical record is a PPS number….
You know, that single most important unique identifier you have.
That I understand – but the personal data stolen from the HSE allows somebody to take loans out in my name, set up a pay pal etc… maybe I apply for a visa somewhere and they say “hey we think your a terrorist”… or somebody gets into an email and uses it for a better phishing scam and eventually gets credit card or bank details etc.. When this happens in the US and other countries, due to how their credit rating, taxes etc. work, it has a massive impact on your life – even the smallest leak of personal data can quickly spiral into a disaster, I know plenty of people it has happend to, especially in small businesses. But I’m not sure it has such a huge impact in Ireland on Irish citizens. Doesn’t mean it’s nice, and ultimately people are greatly suffering because urgent medical info is not accessible, but in terms of personal data, in Ireland, I don’t think the stakes are quite the same as other countries. The commercial HSE data is significantly larger problem – any company that has it’s data stolen is in a whole other level of a nightmare.
But nobody outside of Ireland cares what your PPS is… and it’s pretty easy to establish your identity here (if you were born here) …. I think a priest can still sign your passport form…! and resolves issues with missuse of a PPS… which is not the case in other jurisdictions.
Do you think if the government was made up of some other configuration of parties, civil servants will magically become more IT-literate and stop clicking on dodgy links from emails from unknown sources?
It emerged recently that SF has a database containing personal data on millions of voters, and yet had no Data Protection Officer; I’m afraid that ignorance around protection of personal data is a cross-party issue.
“civil servants will magically become more IT-literate and stop clicking on dodgy links from emails from unknown sources?”…. hahaha,
Well when we’ve all been chipped post-vaccine Bill Gates will make sure we don’t… as long as the chips don’t crash or get hacked…
After you’re vaccinated, every time you wake up in the morning you’ll faintly here the windows start up jingle…
It is highly unlikely that ransomware came from a dodgy link because even the HSE would have had basic security on the local machines and, I would hope, some level of distance between their various networks.
What is much more likely is that the hackers had access to those systems for an unknown period of time before they released the ransomware- and that it was set off in a location to do maximum damage. In which case, they also had time to copy whatever records they wished- for whatever purpose.
Just on the dark net trawls- the media love to scaremonger but this is now standard practice not only after an attack, but as part of an ongoing security strategy. There are specialist companies who do it for a monthly fee- it is proactive rather than reactive and is recommended, especially if the attack results in an insurance claim.
On the subject of GDPR- the HSE are now obliged to contact every single person who could be identified from the data stored within the affected systems, the collation of which will be a massive task in itself. GDPR is quite specific as how that list should be gathered and how it is to be reviewed- I doubt if an exercise of that scale has ever been attempted before.
The Daily Express – if they didn’t commit a crime, they have nothing to fear. It is the British justice system, after all.
Yeah, the Express is a mad paper altogether. I always imagine that the folk who buy it are also the ones who go out bedecked in head-to-toe union jacks. You know the type. Still think WWII only ended a decade or so ago.
That headline though. Typical lack of self-awareness from the Brits.
I missed this yesterday- Pat Kenny interviewed Michael Mina, Epidemiologist, Immunologist, Physician, Harvard Public Health/Medical School on rapid antigen tests.
https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/the-case-for-rolling-out-widespread-antigen-testing
Philip Nolan clearly has no idea what he is talking about.
Pat Kenny has gone up in my estimation.
It took him long enough?
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/teen-given-two-years-detention-for-killing-deliveroo-cyclist-in-collision-1.4570561
Who do judges answer to?