Professor Ronan Collins
This morning.
RTÉ Radio One’s Today with Claire Byrne.
Professor Ronan Collins, a consultant geriatrician at Tallaght Hospital in Dublin, spoke to Claire Byrne.
The host began by asking Prof Collins if he believed pubs which don’t serve food should be allowed to reopen.
They then spoke about recent news reports that 70 people aged over 75 have tested positive for Covid-19 over the past fortnight.
Prof. Ronan Collins: “It’s not about pubs and drink as such, it’s actually about the pubs opening, the pubs are part of our normal life and that I suppose I would agree with the Tànaiste to a degree that we do have to get back to living and that includes normalising life in as far as possible.”
Claire Byrne: “That’s across the board and not just pubs then?”
Collins: “Absolutely, because, you know, to be fair, listen, again I think it can be easy to dichotomise showing scenes from, like Killarney last week or maybe scenes from Temple Bar. But there’s a different reality to this as well. First of all, I agree with you. The current situation is a little bit of a farce from what I’ve observed in terms of people serving food and what is going on.
“But if you go down to many places now in the small villages, small towns and indeed I have family who have lived in these areas themselves, all they have as their community centre, and it’s not even about drink, it’s about where people meet, have a chance to exchange some news, you know, support one another. And we’re faced into winter and I think, we do have to learn how to live with this virus.
“The one thing I would make, just as a personal comment, you know, I think all of our views have matured as the situation has progressed but the one thing I’ve learned myself is that we have lost, as a society, the skills of how to live with a pandemic. I heard our Taoiseach last night saying “unprecedented”. It’s hardly “unprecedented” that we have a pandemic. We had four of them in the 1900s and ironically, in the last 20 years, we’ve had four or five threatened or actual pandemics. This was always coming and we have lost our skillset as a society of how to live and cope through a pandemic.”
Byrne: “Well, look, I know people will be worried today because of that news that there have been 70 cases in the over-75s age group and I want to ask you about that next…”
Collins: “Claire, are these cases or are they positive swab results? Because most of us in the hospitals are not seeing this big surge of cases. Now the truth is, and I’m not, I don’t want, in any way, to be compared with some, kind of, more radical commentators on this but if you do swab more people, you will find more cases, inverted commas, of people who have shown positivity on a swab. These people may not even be ill. Some of them are very mildly and are very self-limiting illnesses and I think there’s a degree of, kind of…”
“I think it would be helpful actually, if these bulletins are going to continue every night and I’m not sure about the wisdom of that going forward either. It is important to keep public aware…but I’m not sure having a day-by-day count every day is helping necessarily either at the moment.
“I mean I think hospitalisations are a good marker of actually…”
Byrne: “I mean they’re down. We know they are down.”
Collins: “Yes, so, I mean, you don’t want to be terrorising people either. There is a real danger here, you know, that the greater good of society will not be served by continuing to adopt the ultra-conservative approach. Death rate is a very important outcome of this pandemic. But it is not the only outcome of when we come through this pandemic and how society looks like afterward.”
Byrne: “So you seem to be saying that older people need not to be afraid by this news?”
Collins: “Well, listen everybody needs to be afraid. Because it’s a serious infection and it is a more serious infection as you get older. Although age, in itself, and I keep on making this point, age, in itself, is not the greatest risk factor for determining how seriously unwell you become with this. It is a big factor but it’s underlying illnesses, is actually a major determinant of mortality and things like that.
“So I mean we all need to be afraid. Listen, there’s people of my age who died from this and you became quite unwell yourself, I believe, with the virus. I’m working with a doctor here at the moment who lost her father recently who is not that much older than me so I’m not trivialising this at all. This is a serious infection but we do also have to understand that there is a society at whole that needs to move on.
“We have to learn how to live with this virus. There is not a vaccine next month, there is not a vaccine in two or three months. There may be a vaccine in a year, we don’t know yet. We are going to have to learn how to live with a pandemic and, you know what, it’s a little bit of a wake-up call, to us. Many people in Africa have to live with the threat of serious infection and we forgot, I think, since the time of maybe the TB outbreaks and the Polio outbreaks in Cork and serious outbreaks of Rheumatic Fever, etc, all very serious illnesses but we have forgotten, as a society, of how to cope and live with the threat of infection.”
Earlier: Soz
Pic: YouTube
More GP’s talking sense.
As said previously, my own GP thinks the reaction to Covid is total madness – an insane overreaction.
It’s certainly a breath of fresh air. A little confusion and some contradictions in places within the responses but that’s to be expected to some extent in a live interview. Overall, a pretty sensible and realistic approach from someone who has some standing and we need more people like this to speak out. One wonders what will be the comeback on him for daring to question ‘official’ wisdom.
My GP still hasn’t come out from under the bed. He’s taking calls though, at sixty quid a pop.
I think there is a new virus emerging now- it’s called COMMON SENSE.
Ronan is the first Irish medic to draw a distinction between tests and cases. Cases is a medical term and was never used for test results before CoVid-19, only people who were sick.
And he is right- why is there a blow by blow commentary on this? The only purpose is make people afraid.
Mainstream media are going to get the mother of all public blow backs by the time this is over.
Are you sure? In this doctor’s case common sense includes still treating the disease as serious, to young and old alike, instead of some sort of sneaky plot to justify forced microchip vaccines or whatever.
Ah yes, that technical medical term – ‘people who are sick.’
Imagine wanting to keep people informed on the current state of a pandemic that has had a worldwide impact. Don;t they know ignorance is bliss?
Oh yes keep trying to label people Nigel, good man- God forbid you’d ever have to question your own stance eh?
The use of the word ‘Case’ was and is inappropriate, and medically incorrect- fact.
Yes, like you medically corrected, the correct medically appropriate word is ‘people who are sick.’
A test is just that- you never hear of HIV + people being referred to as cases so why did that all change with CoVid-19?
Well, if I did I’m sure it would have completely changed the way I viewed the disease to such an extent that using the phrase is a deplorable and possibly sinister scandal.
Eh. you do.
HIV disease continues to be a serious health issue for parts of the world. Worldwide, there were about 1.7 million new cases of HIV in 2018.
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/statistics.html
Only when describing treatments for HIV at which point it becomes a case- but not infections?
Everyone understands that the government message needs to err on the side of caution. However they seem to keep shifting the goalposts for the basis for their statistical analysis.
Early on the need for caution was confirmed by the number of daily deaths. The death stopped and then the need for caution was confirmed by the number of dailyhospitalizations. The hospitalisation stopped and now the need for caution is confirmed by the number of cases. Considering the question marks around the reliability of testing you’d have to question if it’s a solid basis for public health policies which are affecting people’s lives in such egregious ways.
People are monitoring the number of cases closely because of the possibility of another wave. It’d be great if we didn’t get one and this became the new normal for this virus, but since it’s a new strain we won’t know until it happens, or not. There are a ot of question marks, hence the caution.
This. I’d buy you a pint, sir, if I could.
My GP got done for drink driving once. I know another who believes in god and goes to mass, my 12 year old believes in the tooth fairy.
Does a belief in god exclude you from practicing medicine?
The two are not mutually exclusive.
All the usual lemons will be along shortly to label him “anti-science”.
Label the guy who says the disease is real and a threat to young and old alike and who is thinking about how to live with it until we get a vaccine as ‘anti-science?’ Be weirder if you embraced him as a fellow anti-vaxxer.
Not even worth it, he doesn’t refer to any science.
He does say some very silly things how we’ve forgotten how to deal with pandemics (Like what? Spanish flu which killed 50million?) and living with infectious diseases in Africa which also involves a lot of dying.
Claire Byrne let him away with this rubbish. Bring back Sarah McInerney.
Yeah, really weird statement about it not being unprecedented, McInerney wouldn’t have let him off. For a doctor he seems awful keen on people getting back into pubs (full of bad alcohol and bad food, but you know mental health, blah blah) so a decent journalist would have asked him if any of his close relations were in the trade, Byrne of course didn’t.
That’s a good point – a lot of horrible suffering in Africa before wild polio was only recently eradicated.
I think there is a difference between learning to live with a virus by developing effective management/mitigation/coping strategies and HAVING to live with it with little other choice than to accept the consequences (though admittedly I would imagine they do develop a bit of know-how through sheer necessity and as George says, the price of that knowledge is death).
Yes Pat I am shocked at those on here that attack in the most nasty ways. We must be adults and look at the facts not the spin. I remember our great financial experts and soft landings. I remember when we were all in it together wearing the green Jersey. As for our medical experts or courts are stuffed with negligence cases. Whats changed? Have we had a devine gifting of ability to our medical sector me thinks not. We are as stupid as a herd of cattle. Tis ironic it’s the herd that will save us yet again as is the norm. Tnx to all who post in measured tone, even those who are funny. Yes counter point but take the nasty stuff elsewhere. Btw up your intake of the vit D for the coming flu season and yes the frail will fall as is the norm. Gla .
Yes Pat I am shocked at those on here that attack in the most nasty ways.
We are as stupid as a herd of cattle.
Yes Pat I am shocked at those on here that attack in the most nasty ways.
We are as stupid as a herd of cattle.
Yes Pat I am shocked at those on here that attack in the most nasty ways.
We are as stupid as a herd of cattle.
Yes Pat I am shocked at those on here that attack in the most nasty ways.
We are as stupid as a herd of cattle.
@ An older man. There is a new label these days- Complicity Theorist,.
A person who accepts the political narrative of the day unquestionably; consumes mainstream media like it was 1980; and is prone to submissiveness, outburst of irrational fear, and public shaming of free-thinkers.
I could point to a few on here but instead I’ll just say- if the cap fits, wear it.
Good thing you don’t like labelling people, eh?
Oh Nidge, you cad.
He makes a solid point about living with the disease until a vaccine is developed, but doesn’t say HOW – masks, social distancing? Also, I don’t get this:
‘I don’t want, in any way, to be compared with some, kind of, more radical commentators on this but if you do swab more people, you will find more cases, inverted commas, of people who have shown positivity on a swab. These people may not even be ill.’
A major part of the problem with covid is how contagious it is even amongst people who are asymptomatic. He’s trying to make a point about tests but he doesn’t address that aspect. Does he mean false positives? If the tests consistently give a certain percentage of false positives, that can be factored into the overall statistical analysis, but hardly a reason to reduce testing?
I think it’s irresponsible to say we need to move on and put this behind us. We keep doing that after societal shocks and crashes and disruptions, and never think to reassess how vulnerable we are and how we can change things to make us more resiliant and our economies more sustainable, not to mention fairer as the brunt of these shocks are always borne by the most vulnerable. But anyway.
Exactly, what does living with virus mean? Accepting increased deaths and long periods of illness? He doesn’t say what it is we have actually forgotten. He isn’t really saying anything of substance at all.
Living with virus – he can’t mean just pretend there is no virus, so just carry on as normal, but he doesn’t say what changes might be necessary in order to live with it?
A bit blasé and flippant on the good doctor’s part but some decent points.
The reality is this was an unknown quantity back in March. We knew that it was highly communicable and we saw that northern Italy and Wuhan had their health service capacities overwhelmed in a short space of time. Govts around the world admitted there was so much we didn’t know but the observed and potential impacts were enormous ergo let’s lock this mother down.
There is a chance they got this woefully wrong but that does not mean they did the wrong thing. You can only act on the info you have at the time and with the limited knowledge of the possible/probable consequences and outcomes of the various choices for (in)action.
We do need to keep updating and adjusting our response based on observed trends, likely outcomes and knowledge of this bad boy. But is it beyond the realms of possibility that there could be a more virulent strain to (re)emerge? Has this fizzled out? Do we understand the nature of the big bad rona fully when we haven’t even known about it in humans for 12 months?
@Haroo
+1
I would also add to that. Old people over 65 have worked their entire lives and paid their taxes and now they are retired they deserve to live their lives without getting snuffed out by a mysterious virus. Having retired parents I can totally see from their point of view, some cautious responses were needed in Spring. If all of the latest research shows that we can loosen up the restrictions and get back to something normal, then we should try to do it. School kids are being badly affected by the lack of social activity in school.
Pubs, restaurants need to get some fans, air conditioning, extractor fans installed to make for a more safe environment. Gov’t should give them grants for these costs.
Pffft. Ronan Collins. Sure what does he know?
Oh wait – no queue of detractors – no torchlit visitation?
No labelling? Is he not left, right, alt right or whatever?
Is his twitter being reported in the hope it’ll be closed down?
Surely he mentioned 5G? If not, surely there’s something to latch onto?
Poor GiggidyGoo. Stuck building your own strawmen are you?
Yep, Cian. You sure have run out of ideas these past few weeks. I’m surprised you haven’t added some statistics on strawman.
So any more lies you’d like to grace us with, or are you just saving those for the mornings now?
It’s like they are trying to pluck feathers off a frog.
Is he a expert in infectious diseases?
Is he a expert on public health?
No hes a consutlant in geriatrics. In terms of this debate he has an opinion. Slightly more valid then average joe on the street.
To suggest weve lost the ability to cope with Pandemics. Wtf?
When was the last global pandemic that spread via international jet travel all around the world in less then 3 months with now close to 6 figure deaths.
This lad should stick to his consultancy.
Il defer my attention to the thousands of epidemologist, infectious diseases experts and public health specialists the world over trying to fight this disease.
Yes its an awful pandemic which produces these sorts of excess fatalities now isn’t it?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Efno0HwXoAAYMt9?format=jpg&name=small
What happens to that picture if you exclude January and February? You know before Covid was here?
The following paints a different picture in terms of excess deaths when you aggregate data from several European countries. Esp look at older categories. It would appear to them this certainly is a cause for concern and has had a significant impact.
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
You mean before Covid was reported to be here? It is a 2019 virus.
@ Haroo – The General Register Office is the central repository for records relating to births, stillbirths, adoptions, marriages, civil partnerships and deaths in Ireland.
This data is gold standard- I have not seen one person question it and there would be plenty if they could- mainly because it is impossible to reconcile with this madness. Evidence is also emerging that for the same periods in UK or US there has been no excess deaths either.
If this is true then we are witnessing the biggest political blunder of our lifetimes.
No, I am just trying to provide a broader picture/sample since we are all dealing with the same virus.
Excess deaths are clearly above the norm in some countries and the aggregate of all selected European countries are taken into account especially in older age categories.
I think it is unfair to say that this pandemic has not had a substantial impact on the excess death rate particularly for older age categories.
@ Haroo again- from you link, which is good site btw- if you scroll down to Z=score by country and remove all but Ireland you get a pretty good picture of what has been happening.
Overall fatalities go up and down each year but usually peak in winter months. You will see a similarity between 2018 and 2020 except 2018 peak was over a much longer period- and also killed an extra 1700.
The other thing to note is that 2019 was a lower than average fatality rate so those vulnerable people were still around this year. So this ‘pandemic’ was a combination of extra high risks and a very infectious virus which spread faster than a flu- and probably a lot wider.
And, if you look at other countries which did not have that mild year in 2019- you will find they did not have a peak in 2020 either.
I suppose the main point I am trying to make is that measuring such fatalities over a one year period is not the complete picture. Viruses come every year and sadly, they take a certain section of end of life people with them.
Some years they take more than others but after surviving a mild season- it is nearly like some are living on borrowed time, because nobody is going to live for ever.
Well done for proving the value of the experts advice.
Large amounts of deaths have been mitigated here BECAUSE of the lockdown and restrictions.
Today and for the past 2 weeks the US has 1,000 deaths per day. A country run by a moron ignoring and usurping the expert advice with daily rage tweets from the toilet.
How about using some logic next time!
@SOQ I do accept these things (viruses) seem to be fairly variable on a year-to-year basis and we can all try to pick the data (timeframe and countries) that prove our point – you could say I was doing the same but I am not interested in coming at this having made up my mind before I see the evidence i.e. just looking for something to prove my point. I just want to see what the f@#* is going on.
The excess deaths are higher on a Europe wide basis (or the Europe selected by the site – which interestingly chose to single out Hesse in Germany, I didn’t do that).
You can see in absolute terms the excess deaths are up by a large degree on previous years (by nearly 20k). This is even more striking when looking at older age groups.
But true, there is not the same evidence to back that up when Ireland is isolated on its own.
In terms of the z-scores, again results vary from country to country. Given that this is essentially a measure of variability from the mean (in terms of the average variance) you can see some striking examples like Spain and the UK where they are multiples of the standard deviation. But true, in some there is literally no change.
But what I suppose what I take from it is that this has (had???) the potential to be a very serious problem. That we are all dealing with the same thing (even if there are different strains they can easily come to the island fro Europe) and that to say that there has been no excess death increase is unfair/not representative. It is 100% of Ireland. But not Europe. And pardon the pun but if they sneeze we can easily catch a covid.
@Fakenews
“When was the last global pandemic that spread via international jet travel all around the world in less then 3 months with now close to 6 figure deaths.”
The Hong Kong flu of 1968-69 is estimated to have killed between 1-4 million people globally. Starting in Hong Kong in July 1968, outbreaks were recorded in various countries on the other side of the world within 3 months.
A major difference between then and now is that this is the first generation to experience a pandemic during a time where people are constantly plugging in to a round-the-clock information network via mobile phones. Imagine no one had a mobile to film those evocative scenes in Italy of army trucks taking away the dead. That there was no such things as viral videos or slick corporate media syndicates with the power to whip up fear and panic like wildfire. Sure, there would have been a story in the Irish news about a severe flu epidemic in Italy but it wouldn’t have had quite the same shock factor.
People in 1968 would of course have taken some protective measures, but because they weren’t hooked up to a constant bombardment of information about the pandemic, I think they would have continued on with their day-to-day lives without the same level of focus on the pandemic and heightened levels of fear being perpetuated that we see in the current time period.
Maybe if it wasn’t for the internet and mobile phones, we would only have introduced more moderate protective measures that didn’t set into motion such disastrous secondary consequences in the short-tern and long-term
Was &€14m given to ROQU Health recently? How come so quickly? Company registered May 29th? Website very fluffy. https://www.healthpassportireland.ie/
Ah come on GG, that Wix website looks like it took someone’s whole Friday afternoon.
With the help of a primary school student.
But the company was registered on 29th May and suddenly gets €14m from the HSE? Surely that can’t be true? The company is just one person as well. Very strange.
Maybe the reality of this is the virus is being used to clear hospitals by the HSE ?
Remember the bed crises pre covid
Now we have empty hospitals and where have all those people gone
Empty hospitals mean vital tests and treatments not being given and the longer it goes on the worse
Much like the property bubble
When it bursts we see the results
Were they kidnapped or are they being denied treatment
Simply as it’s not available
We now see the incompetence of the HSE being portrayed as hero’s
We also find out 25%of those called in for covid tests not turning up
Nothing being done there
A ticking time bomb waiting to go off