Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen
‘In anticipation of the coming crisis, [UK Prime Minister] Boris Johnson on Sunday delivered a televised address in which he…announced new measures, including a recommendation that people work from home and a legal requirement for mask-wearing in most public indoor areas. Vaccine passports will be needed to enter large venues such as nightclubs.
Viewed from Ireland, such steps look minimal, in some cases recklessly so, yet they have ignited a rebellion within his Conservative parliamentary party, where civil libertarians and Covid-deniers are resisting all new public health measures.’
Irish Times editorial, December 13
Meanwhile…
‘I read your editorial “The Irish Times view on Britain’s Covid-19 ‘tidal wave’: nobody at the tiller” with interest.
I find it somewhat astonishing that you chose to group civil libertarians and Covid-deniers together. In no way am I a Covid-denier. I have had my vaccines, try to maintain social distance and wear a mask when it is appropriate to do so, and I urge others to do the same.
I am, however, a civil libertarian. I fundamentally believe that people should have the right to make their own choices and not be penalised if theirs is not the state-approved one.
I have always believed that civil liberties are to be defended vigorously. Perhaps it is only in The Irish Times that civil libertarianism is a bad thing? Who would have thought it? ‘
Andrew Bridgen, Conservative MP, House of Commons.
That’s how they do it, even commentators here on Broadsheet. It’s the last resort of a lost argument. They try to conflate something ridiculous like flat earth with the rational view that vaccine passports are unscientific and just plain bad for society.
@Cui Bono?
+1
It’s all they’ve got left…
It’s the same campaign which attempts to smear everyone as ‘far right’ etc.
But in the case of vaccine passports, even most people who are not particularly knowledgeable on the subject can smell a rat. Nobody has presented a shred of empirical evidence that passports reduce infections but then again, they couldn’t for masks either.
Did you mean can smell a ratlicker.
Bridgen, who has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ireland, such that he once said being British he was entitled to an Irish passport.
I find it somewhat astonishing that you chose to group civil libertarians and Covid-deniers together.
They are “grouped together” as two cohorts that “are resisting all new public health measures”.
– Civil libertarians are resisting all new public health measures.
– Covid-deniers are resisting all new public health measures.
Q: Who is resisting all new public health measures?
A: Civil libertarians and Covid-deniers are resisting all new public health measures.
The Irish Times’ editorial is clearly name-dropping them both in the same sentence to associate one with the other.
It’s a common and dishonest tactic
So what about when says:
“I have had my vaccines, try to maintain social distance and wear a mask when it is appropriate to do so, and I urge others to do the same.”
Oh Cian, when Bridgen says civil libertarian….he means xenophobe.
Boradsheet really scraping the bottom of the turd bucket here.
‘civil libertarians’
What’s outrageous is not lumping covid-deniers and civil libertarians together, it’s that anyone would call a Tory MP a civil libertarian, or believe one if they claim they are.
Liberal nor libertarian is not exusive to the left, and both are far removed from the far left you tend to inhabit, in fairness.
‘Liberal’ is a left-wing political position, ‘libertarian’ is right. Putting ”civil’ in front of ‘libertarian’ doesn’t mean they are liberal or have any interest in actual civil liberties, only in restricting a government’s ability to govern and regulate, which includes the government’s enforcement and protection of civil liberties. That’s why a Tory MP can call himself that with a straight face while pushing through a bill making it illegal to protest. That and being bare-faced liars.
“One key cause of civil libertarianism is upholding free speech.”
“Other civil libertarian positions include support for at least partial legalization of illicit substances (marijuana and other soft drugs), prostitution, abortion, privacy, assisted dying or euthanasia, the right to bear arms, youth rights, topfree equality, a strong demarcation between religion and politics, and support for same-sex marriage.”
Jesus that’s some mad old Right- wing stuff altogether.
There’s nothing about any of those positions incompatible with being on the right, politically. It’s just that culturally, most of them are associated with the left, and the right are curently so rabid and partisan they oppose them bitterly, except gun rights, which they support bitterly no matter how many people they slaughter, a bit like their opposition to pandemic responses.
This is why libertarians are so bloody usesless. They hate the left as much as everyone else on the right does, so there’s no common ground, despite supporting many of the same things.
Your claims of the right being rabid and partisan while ignoring the rabid and partisan on the left is a bit of a blind spot for you isn’t it.
They are both such, with their further left and further right counterparts.
Civil Libs don’t really get involved with the left and right thing.
It’s more about individual freedoms.
An obsession with the primacy of individuality is very right wing. Your opposition to collective action in the face of a pandemic obeys the internal logic of right-wing libertarianism. I’m not trying to tell you what you are, only how you come across.
“An obsession with the primacy of individuality is very right wing.”
I disagree.
But I respect your right as an individual to think that, and I would fight for your right to shout it from the rooftops. (While half baked, covered in lime green jelly and smoking several Cuban cigars if you want to) ;-)
Considering the whole gender woo nonsense is very very much an individual thing I’m not at all surprised Nigel ignores it here, even though he being both a supporter of and advocate for.
‘Your claims of the right being rabid and partisan while ignoring the rabid and partisan on the left is a bit of a blind spot for you isn’t it.’
As is the intellectual and moral vacuity of centrism for you. Get back to me when a right wing party anywhere, say, actually does something to address climate change, protects abortion rights, protects LGTBQ rights, protects public health services, protects voting rights etc etc.
The fact you don’t see any right leaning parties doing any of those things is funny.
Your sittibg there mashing a keyboard spouting poo, while being a citizen of a country with a gay Taoiseach, albeit shared presently, and whose party was in power when Self ID was introduced, marriage equality was introduced and abortion…
That is actually quite funny. Very funny in fact :)
‘But I respect your right as an individual to think that, and I would fight for your right to shout it from the rooftops.’
That’s all very well, but it seems more like a way of avoiding the substance of what is being shouted.
“the substance of what is being shouted.”
As long as it’s not calling for the mistreatment/ murder or the removal of rights from others – I’m all good with it.
But enough about me, tell me. What political leanings would you have?
‘I’m all good with it.’
Or lies? The amount of damage that can be done with lies is only growing.
I’m a latte-sipping liberal, me.
@Nigel
Enjoy your latte’s all you want but you’re not liberal, you’re authoritarian.
I don’t think it’s authoritarian to respond to a public health crisis.
‘Considering the whole gender woo nonsense is very very much an individual thing’
Any day you post is a day that means SOQ won’t be making the stupidest comment of the day.
Says the ‘women have a penis’ guy :)
“I don’t think it’s authoritarian to respond to a public health crisis.”
and neither do I but the type of response we have done is authoritarian and you have pushed for it.
Authoritarian’s always have an excuse for their tighter top down control. We could have responded without lockdowns or vaccine passports and simply focused on protected the old and vulnerable. The government didn’t even add 1 extra ICU bed whilst claiming we are in the biggest pandemic since Spanish flu which we now know was completely wrong.
‘The fact you don’t see any right leaning parties doing any of those things is funny.’
That’s right. We have two technocratic centre-right parties – and the Greens – in power, like in Fance and Canada. Not right-wing, like, say, the Tories or the Republicans. They’re awful, but the state of actual right wing parties make them look reasonable.
So, whenever you’ve called FG right-wingers (and I’ll include FF in that too, as I’m sure you’ve said they are I distinguishable on occasion) you’ve never meant actual right wingers.
OK.
^n
‘but the type of response we have done is authoritarian’
No it isn’t.
‘The government didn’t even add 1 extra ICU bed whilst claiming we are in the biggest pandemic since Spanish flu which we now know was completely wrong.’
This is correct, (assuming ‘completely wrong’ refers to not adding ICU beds) but also not authoritarian.
What’s your definition of the word authoritarian?
Not public health measures during a pandemic.
So you blindly accept any “public health measure” even with no cost/benefit analysis or scientific justification to back them up because you believe we are in serious danger from a coronavirus which has a very low IFR. Don’t forget nobody has to be dying for there to be a pandemic as per the WHO’s definition change 10 years ago.
This is Mass Hysteria, Mass Formation, Mass Psychosis, and the perfect opportunity for authoritarians to take advantage.
‘So you blindly accept any “public health measure”’
No, but nor do I blindly reject them.
‘Don’t forget nobody has to be dying for there to be a pandemic’
Heading for five and a half million dead now.
‘Heading for five and a half million dead now.’ – If only they hadn’t denied all those people effective early treatment – in order to inflate numbers & scare people into believing ‘vaccines’ were the only solution.
Yeah, they should have given them bleach to drink and got them to swallow UV lamps.
Really? That seems quite a psychopathic take on the deaths of millions of people. It’s almost as if you’re using their deaths, as a tool to further your message. HCQ, IVM have plenty of evidence for their use.
But that doesn’t matter to you, does it? one death is a tragedy, 5 million is a statistic to paraphrase another.
Huh. I guess it’s some sort of progress that you’re acknowledging that covid has in fact killed a lot of people.
‘So, whenever you’ve called FG right-wingers (and I’ll include FF in that too,’
Pretty sure I’ve always referred to both parties as centre-right. FF more populist, FG more technocratic.
in times of emergency it’s not unusual for liberties to be curtailed or even suspended, this is an emergency.
In times of emergency and times of no emergency, it is not unusual for Tories to curtail civil liberties completely unrelated to the emergency while getting mad at belated responses related to the emergency.
Civil libertarians – we’re a great bunch of lads / lassies.
Nowhere to be seen during, say, a BLM demo, or opposing Direct Provision, or supporting any sort of minority campaigning for equality, but as soon as a crisis directly related to public health arises you’re out there, or in here, complaining about it and opposing measures to deal with it. A great bunch of lads and lassies indeed.
A ‘BLM’ demo…. *guffaw*
What the fupp would a civil libertarian be doing at a rally run by a self proclaimed commie outfit like BLM?
FFS… you’re daft as a brush.
“Grifter commies” at that.
Exactly. Self-styled ‘civil liberatirans’ wouldn’t be caught dead at something that actually opposes authoritarian power. They’d be too busy campaigning for Nazis to teach college courses because of free speech.
Actually they were to busy calling for the BLM protest to go ahead as protesting was a “fundamental right”
Ye see N, we may not agree with what you say, but we’ll bloody well fight for your right to say it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/council-for-civil-liberties-says-protesting-a-reasonable-excuse-under-covid-19-rules-1.4270099
+1
‘We? Are you the ICCL?
really Nigel,do you need to ask:)
Give it a go
https://www.iccl.ie/members/
I am pleasantly surprised, especially after your contemptible comment yesterday.
We the people….:)
its always good start day with a laugh,we would like thank you Micko……zzzz.
You’re easily upset Nigel…
“we would like thank you”
Go team Johnny/Nigel
Maybe I am, maybe I’m not, but so what?
Hmmm. Direct Provision you say
ICCL has spoken to residents who say that they’re being punished for just asking for humane treatment. Today we launch a campaign asking for proper independent inspections to help make sure everyone in the care of the state can have a home where they feel safe.
https://www.iccl.ie/news/people-in-direct-provision-not-getting-the-care-they-need/
Now that’s good civil libertying.
Funny how when ICCL come out on a right on cause they are applauded but when its something like passports they are asked ‘who are you?’.
That’s Nigels oft present bias showing. Nothing new.
As indicated by Tintin O’Foole’s piece last weekend, these days the Irish Times world view is:
Dissent = Authoritarianism
Get with the programme kids.
You think dissent can’t be authoritarian? What’s more aithoritarian, a government that responds to a public health crisis, however imperfectly, or a political movement that ideologically opposes the government’s right to act for the good of the greater public? I’ll tell you right now, the latter will take any measure to strip away the rights and protections afforded by a government to its people, including a public health service and any and all regulations governing business and money. You think Big Pharma is bad now, wait till they dismantle the pesky oversight and accountability that gets in the way of honest profit on their behalf.
Dear Nigel, alas you seem to have made the same mistake as that which I criticised by Fintan O’Toole, in that you appear to have assumed that I am:
A) Against government intervention for society’s well-being,
B) Also against ‘Big Pharma’, and
C) crucially, by extension associated with more extreme views.
This is actually the same problem that I was originally critical of in O’Toole’s article.
For purposes of clarification, I took two vaccine doses, and have exercised responsible precautions in the recent period. However, this does not mean that I subscribe to mass house arrest of citizens by authorities who failed to bring in crucial measures that would have alleviated the need for house arrest such as antigen tests, Hepa filters, idle hospitals (Baggot Street) etc.
Hence, your misplaced critique reinforce my original criticism of the view of the Irish Times and apparently yourself that any dissent is now considered to be indicative of authoritarian tendencies.
It is a great pity that supposedly responsible news outlets and opinion shapers have repeatedly reduced a multi-faceted subject to a binary choice of you-are-with-us-or-against-us.
Quite frightening really.
What’s even more frightening is you thinking any of my comment was attributing any of those views to you, as opposed to suggesting that sometimes, when examined for substance, dissent is bad, not in the sense that it needs to be silenced, but in that it needs to be opposed.
When Omicron hits the NHS like a freight train in the next few weeks those 101 Tory backwoodsmen who opposed measures that just about every other country in Europe has will bitterly regret their theatrics last night.
Boris playing the long game.
And he has an extremely worried Whitty on his side.
Its a mild bug ffs- even South Africa’s figures have plummeted.
There’ll be an unstoppable tidal wave of runny noses that relentlessly targets 5-11 year olds and is all the fault of the unvaxxed/unboosted. All we need to do is forcibly vaccinate everyone, build Aussie style covid prisons for anyone caught sneezing and put Pat Kenny playing on a loop 24/7. That should help flatten the curve
As always you miss the simplest and most obvious point.
It’s not the severity but the ease of transmission of this variant that is of huge concern.
Even with mild symptons you have to self-isolate for 10 days.
Imagine nurses and doctors all over Ireland unable to do their shift.
In a country which earlier this week saw 534 people on trolleys in hospital corridors because of lack of beds.
What happens if it rips through childcare facilities and those doctors and nurses don’t have anyone to look after their kids.
What if the people currently administering vaccines are all out sick.
What if shops,transport,food distribution etc all get hit by a wave of absentees.
There is a reason why governments everywhere are crapping themselves over Omicron and the timing of its arrival.
It would be very unwise to be blasé about this variant.
It’s not the severity but the ease of transmission.
Of course it is about the severity. If CoVid-19 had to consistently present akin to a cold, there would have been no pandemic.
More importantly, its about governments inability to modify its policy in response to what is a reduced public health threat.
‘Of course it is about the severity.’
It has never, ever, at no point in this whole sorry pandemic, been just about the severity. People catch severe things all the time, but we don’t shut down the country over it, as you yourself have pointed out. At this stage continuing to claim you do not understand this basic point is beyond ridiculous.
It’s started already in the UK and Ireland is generally about a week behind.
” The biggest challenge to staff at the moment is going to be the numbers going off sick,” said Dr Katherine Henderson, president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. “I was on a shift yesterday and during my day shift four doctors went off Covid-positive,” she told an all-party parliamentary group coronavirus evidence session.
Elaine Thorpe, a matron in the intensive care unit at University College London hospitals NHS trust, said: “We’ve got a lot of staff really going down with Covid and that’s really impacting the number of nurses, doctors, admin staff – everyone behind the scenes. It’s not just the staff who work in the coalface in A&E and critical care. It’s throughout the NHS that’s really going to be impacted on this and we’re really worried.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/15/expect-mass-staff-absences-and-major-shortages-uk-cabinet-told
It’s only like a cold …
That someone is off sick means very little at the moment because the slightest sign of being unwell means someone, especially health care workers, are instructed to stay at home- even for a cold.
Hospitalizations and fatalities are way down with this strain because it is much less severe, and that is what really counts.
I never thought I’d ever agree with Nigel but you really are as dumb as he thinks you are.
The things that ‘mean very little’ to you seems like they’re going to cause big problems for other people.
Regret? If covid wrecks the NHS they’ll throw another party.
Daft as a brush indeed.
Speaking of recless civil libertarians… “Nazi pass” restauranteur causes covid outbreak. https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/restaurateur-who-vowed-to-fight-vaccine-passes-in-court-temporarily-closes-due-to-confirmed-case-of-covid-19-41147081.html
The €16k he scammed from the gullible and stupid should pay the legal bill when his staff sue him for unsafe work practices.
Here’s another German word for Luigi to get used to – Schadenfreude
There are no covid deniers in the Tory parliamentary party. Surely?
This is what I was wondering, surely it’s only those on the extreme fringes that are denying it exists.
But that is the game isn’t it? Pick the most extreme position possible and smear all dissent with it.
The vast majority of those who voted against did so on ideological grounds, against the introduction of a ‘papers please’ culture- including to his credit, Jeremy Corbyn.
Untruth in respect of a small, identifiable group of people. Was it defamatory of the IT to say that?
I am, however, a c … rushing bore.
Managed to join my wife and kids at home in Cork after they finished their self quarantine after all testing positive ffot whatever they test for. Kids hardly noticed the odd sniffles and occasional cough. Wife quite ill with flu like symptoms, dragged on 2 weeks and still a chest infection, with loss of energy, feeling weak.
Doctor will not see her or prescribe anything that will help.
But happy to charge me 60 for the phone chat.
Useless.
No wonder outcomes can be bad with an illness that is left untreated as standard malpractice.
Ghouls. Clearly never heard of Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquin and supplements.
No clot shot in this house, but it would be nice to avail of treatments that do work from a none panic stricken quack.