Fine Gael TD Kieran O’Donnell (above) questioned Brian Conlon (top), former CEO of Central Remedial Clinic this morning at a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee about revelations that Mr Conlon’s predecessor Paul Kiely received a pension package of €700,000 which was paid out of public donations to the charity.
Mr Conlon resigned as CEO in December. Prior to his CEO appointment he had been a member of the CRC board for eight years.
Grab a tay.
And CALL the guards.
Kieran O’Donnell: “You came in as CEO, you’re telling me it’s credible that a CEO of an organisation, which is bringing in about €1.4/€1.5million a year in donations, from ordinary people that are collecting, to provide services for ordinary people, not to be basically giving a divvy-up of the order of €700,000 to Mr [Paul] Kiely. You’re telling me that you had no knowledge of the €450,000 and the €250,000. Do you think it’s credible that the CEO, when you’re looking at the accounts, and you’re collecting €1.4million and literally, sitting in there is €450,000 of a transfer, which was put in as a donation, within the accounts of CRC which, clearly, was designed to misrepresent, at best, and a €250,000, a quarter of a million euro was transferred from peoples, that had been out collecting money for frontline, for service users, you’re telling me that you didn’t spot this? As CEO?”
Brian Conlon: “These adjustments that were going through…”
O’Donnell: “How can you call them adjustments? These, something of €700,000 is not an adjustment. €700,000, which is nearly three-quarters of a million euro is a crazy figure and personally, I’d be asking that Mr Kiely would refund the money to the CRC, to the CRC Friends and Supporters. So I’m asking you the question again. Surely. How often did you do accounts? Did you do monthly management accounts in Friends and Supporters?”
Conlon: “There was one set of accounts, at the end of the year, for Friends and Supporters. There was no management accounts done every month for Friends and Supporters.”
O’Donnell: “But surely you, as CEO, would be looking to see how much money was, of course, the problem is that Friends and Supporters always had, I think, they had a balance. What was the balance in the account, at the end of, when you took over, Mr Conlon?”
Conlon: “The balance in the Friends and Supporters was just over €12million.”
O’Donnell: “And we had the board here, previously, and I would have thought that money would have been put to better use for frontline users, than basically looking at, the question is, it’s about priorities. So obviously the €700,000, in the context of €14million was only a small amount.”
Later
O’Donnell: “Do you think it’s credible that as CEO, when you were looking at Friends and Supporters, and you’d two payments – one of €450,000 and one of €250,000 being put from CRC Friends and Supporters up to CRC, the main company, classified as a donation, it wasn’t a donation, it was effectively, putting the hand in the til of money that was collected by ordinary people up and down the country, to feather the nests of individuals in management in CRC. Now do you think it’s credible that you didn’t know about it, Mr Conlon?”
Conlon: “I did not know that the money was being used to fund Paul Kiely’s pension.”
O’Donnell: “What did you think it was being used for?”
Conlon: “To support…”
O’Donnell: “No, no, no, did you, do you think it’s credible that, as CEO, that when you’d be looking at bank statements or whatever, in terms of CRC, Friends and Supporters, that you would not ask the question, as to what was the €450,000 and €250,000 – where did it go and what was it used for? Do you think it’s credible, as CEO, that you would not ask that question?”
Conlon: “These matters were not…when I joined the CRC first, I had other priorities and my understanding was that Mr Kiely’s pension had been sorted out.”
O’Donnell: “And what did you understand his pension was?”
Conlon: “As he explained that…”
O’Donnell: “€200,000?”
Conlon: “Yes.”
O’Donnell: “So, did you ask where the €450,000 and the €250,000 – that would have come in? Do you have a financial controller in the CRC?”
Conlon: “Yes.”
O’Donnell: “Did the Financial Controller, do you have continuous discussions with the financial controller? Did you have discussions with the financial controller?”
Conlon: “Not about this, no.”
Later
O’Donnell: “I’d ask you to reflect Mr Conlon, on what I’ve asked you is: do you think it’s credible that you were not aware of these payments? Do you think it’s credible?”
Conlon: “Well I’m telling you the truth, I was not aware of these payments going through, absolutely not. I was the new CEO, lots of things were happening, I was finding my feet. I had a serious issue with regards to the appointment of the HSE and I had a serious issue on my hands with CRC Medical Devices.”
O’Donnell: “Side by side with that then, you had CRC Medical Devices, where it was, what was the amount owed from CRC Medical Devices to CRC Friends and Supporters at that particular time? What was the amount owed?”
Conlon: “There was no amount owed because there was no money transferred from Friends of…”
O’Donnell: “There was a loan from Friends and Supporters to CRC Medical.”
Conlon: “There wasn’t, there was an underwriting of a loan. The monies owed were owed to the CRC, they fund it.”
O’Donnell: “So who funded the CRC Medical?”
Conlon: “In the main, the funding came from the CRC.”
O’Donnell: “But you have written in your own notes here, a loan of €550,000, from your presentation today, from the Friends and Supporters of the CRC was approved for the venture.”
Conlon: “The loan was approved but the money was never drawn down. What happened was the working capital exposure over the years was covered by CRC. CRC was owed the money by Friends but that transaction never took place.”
O’Donnell: “But the money that was spent by the CRC Medical, where did that money come from? Where was the physical, the €550,000?”
Conlon: “That money was never, never transferred to CRC Medical Devices. It was underwritten.”
O’Donnell: “And where did CRC Medical Devices get their money from?”
Conlon: “From the CRC.”
O’Donnell: “And where did the CRC? So, so, what you said there, there was a loan of €550,000 from Friends and Supporters…”
Conlon: “It was approved but never drawn down..”
O’Donnell: “…was approved for the venture but that’s not what your, your presentation does not qualify that. It says…”
Conlon: “But I qualified that for Deputy [Shane] Ross about 15 minutes ago.”
O’Donnell: “So what you’re basically saying is that €550,000 was put down from CRC to CRC Medical, that loan was effectively underwritten by the Friends and Supporters, OK.”
Conlon: “It was working capital support, more so than a loan.”
O’Donnell: “What is now the loss, on the sale of CRC Medical to MMS [Munster Medical Supplies], what’s the eventual, what would be the loss to CRC?”
Conlon: “The maximum loss would be €200,000. I would hope that it would be around €100,000.”
O’Donnell: “But you won’t know that. What’s the potential loss, €200,000?”
Conlon: “€200,000.”
O’Donnell: “Who’ll end up taking that hit?”
Conlon: “The Friends and Supporters.”
O’Donnell: “Ok, so the point I’m trying to make is that between the €200,000 from there, and there’s €700,000 in terms of the divvy-up, the bonanza for Mr Kiely, it’s over €1million of money that was collected by ordinary people, up and down the country. How do you feel about that?”
Conlon: “Well I must stress again that I was not aware of Paul Kiely’s pension arrangements. Those pension arrangements were made by the renumeration committee of the CRC, of which I was not a member and I’d no hand, act nor part to play. In relation to the CRC Medical Devices, I think quite the opposite. I rescued a potential loss of €600,000 by my actions over the last, over the four months or the five months that I was there.”
O’Donnell: “You were on the board for eight years, prior to that date?”
Conlon: “The board of CRC? Yeah.”
O’Donnell: “Yeah. Did the issue in terms of CRC Medical, did that come up for discussion at any time?”
Conlon: “Only more, towards the end, from about April, May onwards.”
O’Donnell: “April, May of what year?”
Conlon: “2013.”
O’Donnell: “So you’re saying to me, this thing was haemoraghing money and it never came up for discussion at the CRC board?”
Conlon: “Only briefly, a number of rescue plans were put in by the management, they didn’t work and it wasn’t really until I got to grips with it, when I was appointed CEO.”
Ex-CRC chief Kiely received €700,000 retirement package (Irish Times)
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