From top: President Michael D Higgins Fianna Fáil TD Marc MacSharry; Comptroller and Auditor General Seamus McCarthy
This morning.
At the Public Accounts Committee.
PAC member Fianna Fáil TD Marc MacSharry raised an allowance of €317,000 that the person holding the office of the President of Ireland is entitled to per year.
The committee was told the figure was set by statutory instrument in 1998, when Mary McAleese was president.
It was also told the €317,000 annual allowance is not audited, not taxed and doesn’t need to be surrendered.
From this morning’s proceedings…
Marc Mac Sharry: “Can I ask the C&AG, are you aware of an amount of €325,000 per year in the president’s establishment – the detail of which is not open for you to audit.”
Seamus McCarthy: “Yeah, I think it’s something less than that. I think the official salary of the president is…”
MacSharry: “No, no, not the salary, I’m not talking about salaries at all. And I don’t want to talk about the president either.”
McCarthy: “No, yeah, I’m aware of the other allowance which is…”
MacSharry: “So what is that?”
McCarthy: “It is…”
MacSharry: “How much…”
McCarthy: “I don’t have the figure off hand. It’s paid through the finance accounts, the Central Fund of the Exchequer.”
MacSharry: “Do you know what amount that is, per year?”
McCarthy: “I don’t, I don’t think so deputy…”
Sean Fleming [chairman]: “What the title?”
MacSharry: “I don’t think it has a title. That’s why I’m trying to get some answers. I asked the C&AG are you aware of an amount of money, in or around €325,000 per year, I’m not talking about salaries here. Which is not open to the C&AG…”
McCarthy: “It’s a payment, I think, for 2017, the figure is €317,000.”
MacSharry: “€317,000.”
McCarthy: “It’s a payment under the Presidential Establishment Act 1938 as amended.”
MacSharry: “Ok. So the Presidential Establishment Act, a payment under that, of €317,000, in terms of 2017…”
McCarthy: “It’s an allowance.”
MacSharry: “That’s an allowance for the president. Sorry, so that, so it’s renumeration then is it?”
McCarthy: “No, well, it’s an allowance. Yeah. It’s not pensionable.”
MacSharry: “Right. It’s not a salary.”
McCarthy: “It’s not a salary, it’s an allowance.”
MacSharry: “It’s an allowance.”
McCarthy: “An allowance.”
MacSharry: “And you don’t audit that?”
McCarthy: “I don’t audit that. I audit the issuing of the payment from the Central Fund.”
MacSharry: “You audit the issuing. So what’s involved in auditing the issuing of…”
McCarthy: “Ensuring that the amount that’s paid over is not in excess of the amount that is provided for in law.”
MacSharry: “And in this act, if we look it up, does it say €317,000 or how’s that amount…”
McCarthy: “A statutory instrument from 1998 set the figure at €317,000 and it hasn’t changed since 1998.”
MacSharry: “Ok. Do you know the number of that statutory instrument by any chance?”
McCarthy: “97.”
MacSharry: “Ok. €317,000 per year. You’re saying it’s an allowance but it’s not renumeration. So, in ten years, that’s €3.2million or thereabouts?”
McCarthy: “Obviously, yeah.”
MacSharry: “Do you know what it’s used for? Does that act prescribe…”
McCarthy: “No, it doesn’t prescribe what it’s use for…”
MacSharry: “Ok. So. €317,000 per year allowance, not audited, we don’t know what it’s used for and it’s not prescribed in law. Is that correct?”
McCarthy: “The purpose is not prescribed in law.”
MacSharry: “It’s purpose meaning it’s use – what it’s used for?”
McCarthy: “Other then that it is a payment that can be made to the president, that’s what the law says.”
Later
MacSharry: “What we have – €317,000 per year, provided under an act, we don’t know what it’s for, it’s an allowance. We don’t know what it’s purpose is for, it could be spent, theoretically, on anything, it mightn’t be spent at all, presumably. Is this an amount that’s surrender-able at the end of the year or…”
McCarthy: “No. It’s not surrender-able.”
MacSharry: “Ok, so it’s an allowance for unknown items, or unknown purposes, not audited and presumably not subject to taxation because it’s not salary or whatever.”
McCarthy: “That’s correct yeah.”
Later
MacSharry: “Is it reasonable to say, and I know sometimes my language is a little bit flippant but is this a €317,000 payment on the blind? That no-one passes any remote oversight, notion, idea, look, at what it’s spent on? Is that the case?”
McCarthy: “I don’t know, deputy.”
Later
McCarthy: “I do have a piece of information which may be relevant. In 2011, an amount of €357,000 was returned to the Central Fund at the end of the previous president’s [McAleese] presidency.”
MacSharry: “That would indicate then…sorry, just because it’s on the same thread…that this €317,000 can be paid per annum, be accumulated and then, if there’s amounts left over, as would seem to be the case in 2011, the balance was refunded to the Central Exchequer. Ok. But still, whoever was the incumbent, or whoever was responsible at that time, we don’t know what the money was spent on per year and we still don’t.”
“We want to get the procedures but we do know the Secretary General of An Taoiseach doesn’t know, the C&AG is not responsible and doesn’t know and the Department of Finance Secretary General, according to yourself, the C&AG, also doesn’t know, or doesn’t have a role in auditing that amount of money. So I think that’s significant.”
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