Depends.
Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald and Fine Gael’s Fidelma Healy Eames appeared on TV3’s Tonight with Vincent Browne, via videolink from the Dáil, earlier tonight to talk about the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill.
During the interview, Ms Healy Eames had a little trouble with her earpiece.
Part of the conversation went as follows:
Fidelma Healy Eames: “We have had two sets of hearings. We have heard over and over again that abortion is never a treatment for suicide so we are now giving the impression here, we are deceiving women by saying that that is so. That is extremely misleading. I just met somebody local to me in Galway the other day. She said to me: ‘Ok, so we give the woman an abortion because she’s suicidal. In a month’s time or two months’ time, she’s still suicidal, after she’s had the abortion. What do we do then?’ This is unbelievable stuff that we’re putting into law, given all the evidence that we’ve heard. This is not the way forward.”
Vincent Browne: “Fidelma, if what you say is true. Is it remotely plausible that a number of, is it one or two psychiatrists and obstetrician would certify somebody as being abortion is appropriate for a particular person, if it should never be a treatment for somebody who is suicidal ideation?”
Healy Eames: “I’m not exactly sure that I heard you properly. You mentioned about…”
Browne: “My point is that…you’re saying that abortion can, should never be a treatment for suicide. I don’t think anybody thinks it’s a treatment for suicide. But, if it is the case that abortion should never be contemplated in respect of somebody who has suicidal tendancies, because they’re pregnant, then is it likely that..psychiatrists and obstetricians would preform an abortion in such a case when abortion is not suitable.”
Healy Eames: “Well, again, as I say, if I heard you right…”
Browne: “It couldn’t happen. If what you say is true it couldn’t happen?”
Healy Eames: “No, no. Let’s. Let’s call a spade a spade here, Vincent. In the UK right now, it takes two doctors to sign off for an abortion. And we have, last year, 190,000 abortions in the UK. So we do know…”
Browne: “But it’s not because of suicide, it’s not because people are claiming they’re suicidal that they have abortions in Britain. It’s because of other factors. And the other factors are not relevant here.”
Healy Eames: “No, no, no. The most common ground in the UK is the mental health ground.”
Browne: “That’s right.”
Healy Eames: “It’s the most…”
Browne: “But it’s not suicide.”
Mary Lou McDonald: “It’s not suicide.”
Healy Eames: “But suicide is part of that picture, Vincent. And it will be part of that picture here when we looked at the evidence worldwide, it was the exact way in. In California we had it.”
MacDonald: “Can I just say?”
Healy Eames: “If I could just finish the point. Despite the very best intention of law makers, they could not restrict it. So it’s an absolute, it’s rubbish to say that this is restrictive legislation. Psychiatrists have been very clear, that they cannot predict suicide. They can assess risk but they cannot predict. So, to be cautious, they over predict. And that’s what we’re going to see here.”
Browne: “Ok, Mary, you want to get back in..”
McDonald: “Can I just say, firstly, just to be absolutely clear, there is nobody claiming that abortion is a treatment for suicide. Tragically, as we know, there is no treatment…”
Healy Eames: “Why is Section 9 in the Bill then?”
McDonald: “Section 9 says, very clearly, that where a woman, not that she has suicidal tendancies, or suicidal ideation but, where the assessment is, that a suicidal woman’s life is in jeopardy. That’s the first test. And, secondly, where it is established that all other methods and recourse and treatments have been tested and failed. Then and only then, having passed those two very significant hurdles, is a woman legally entitled to the option of a termination of that pregnancy.
Healy Ealmes: “Not true, not true.”
McDonald: “And on that note, can I just say, it’s worth, just reminding ourselves of the X Case. Some people say, well that was very particular. It may well have been but it happened. A 14-year-old raped, suicidal child, a tragic case and in that case, the view of that child’s parents and subsequently the view of the courts, that that suicidal child should not be forced by the State to carry that pregnancy to term. That that brutalised child should have and did have in fact in law the option of a termination. And the legislate, I really think it’s very unhelpful for people to cause alarm in the way that Fidelma, whether by accident or design is doing here. Ireland, this State has a written Constitution. It is an entirely different apparatus and set-up to the one that pertains in Britain. And, by any standards, to set the test of jeopardy real and substantial risk to the life, number one, where all other treatments have failed and where, as an option of last resort, you save the life of the woman. It’s not, it is restrictive. It is extremely restrictive. It is also basic, it is also absolutely necessary.”
Browne: “Just let Fidelma get back, briefly. Yeah?”
Healy Eames: “Well, very briefly, we have given, my colleagues in the Dáil, Lucinda Creighton has offered Minister Reilly an opportunity to ensure that a woman would have a treatment package, the pathways of care. Minister Reilly is not accepting that amendment. We do not know that a woman will be offered every treatment…”
McDonald: “She has to…”
Healy Eames: “That’s…we know for sure, having listened to the psychiatrists that if a woman has pre-existing mental health conditions, that she will be offered. However, a woman that’s maybe experiencing acute stress because she’s in a crisis pregnancy, not planned, not wanted. That if she expresses, over and over again, that she’s suicidal. The psychiatrist must believe her. And she can’t be forced to take care against her wishes.”
Browne: “Mary Lou?”
Healy Eames: “There’s many, many other grounds, there’s many other grounds Vincent.”
