“They Stood Up And Said ‘We See The EU For What It Is'”

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 TV3’s Tonight with Vincent Browne last night; Independent TD Catherine Connolly

Last night, Tonight with Vincent Browne’s panel discussed the fallout of Brexit.

The panel included Sinn Féin vice president and Dublin Central TD, Mary Lou McDonald; retired Senior Lecturer Emeritus in Social Policy at Trinity College Dublin, Anthony Coughlan, Fine Gael TD for Dublin South East, Eoghan Murphy; and Independent TD for Galway West and barrister, Catherine Connolly.

During the debate, this is what Ms Connolly said:

I thought I’d reached an age where I wasn’t shocked. But to see Peter Sutherland saying that, ‘we must find a way to rerun this referendum’ or to see Tony Blair come out saying, ‘it has to be rerun’ actually has shocked me. I thought I was beyond shocked.

That’s number one.

Number two, like Anthony [Coughlan]. I didn’t think this Brexit was going to win, certainly after the murder of Jo Cox – I didn’t think. So I woke up to the result on Friday morning.”

I cannot believe what the establishment have done prior to Brexit, during Brexit and after Brexit.

I’m absolutely full of admiration for the English people who have stood up to a terrible bullying campaign. I would have no truck with anti-racism [sic], nor the famous poster with refugees, I abhor it and I appall it.

But to judge the 17 million people who voted for Brexit in that manner does the person who says that no service and does the people no service.”

They stood up and said ‘We see the EU for what it is’ or, at least, that’s what I’m taking out of it. Is it the start of a new dawn? I do not think so.

But I think it’s the first step in exposing the EU.

I thought it was exposed when we were forced to rerun the Nice Treaty. I thought it was exposed when we were forced to rerun the Lisbon Treaty. I thought it was exposed during the financial crisis but, unfortunately, the establishment, the politicians that were in power, plus the media, by and large, helped to stop that exposure.”

“I think it’s exposed again now and I think it’s open for us to grab that opportunity and not let the Right have the narrative or tell the story. It’s up to us to grasp it.

How could you possibly say that the EU is good, as it stands when we have a country where we have to get permission to build homes for our people – that came out recently the committee, that we have to get permission to fiddle with the fiscal treaty to get money, how can we possibly say that this EU is a social EU that allows 10,000 minors, unaccompanied minors go missing in Europe and we haven’t had one single urgent debate at EU level in relation to that.

On top of that, we have the Lisbon Treaty and I’m all for a social Europe, I’m all for Europe. However, the Lisbon Treaty, which I canvassed against and I canvassed against it after reading it in detail.

I would hope that there was scope in that Treaty to bring out social Europe but I’m afraid the emphasis is on the militarisation of Europe, page after page, and we made this point at the time. It’s in relation to the neoliberal agenda page after page, in relation to freeing up the markets.

There are good, there are good articles in it like the one I quoted in the Dáil that all democratic decisions should be made as near as possible to the citizen. That’s the dream. The reality is we have taken power repeatedly from local politicians, just as one example, so I would love if someone took this [the Lisbon Treaty] away, that was able to study it better than me and show us the way forward to bring out the social Europe.”

“But I think it’s dominated by clauses that have a neoliberal agenda and dominated by the militarisation of Europe.

Watch in full here (go to 27.05)

Earlier: A Choice Between Two Sides Of The Same Dismal Coin

120 thoughts on ““They Stood Up And Said ‘We See The EU For What It Is'”

  1. Eoin

    Very well said. I think you’ve got to be blind to see the EU in a positive light considering the history. The Brexit does help to expose it further and hopefully will send a message that were all watching closely and want change. I just don’t believe there’s any will to change at high levels. I don’t think the EU has ever been about the people. More about the elites and power. Almost everyone I work with was pro remain in the UK election. They’re none of them stupid, but they are ignorant and blinded by political and media misguidance and pretty much believe what they are told. At least the Brits have woken up. Well the English and Welsh at least.

    1. Bob

      Or maybe you’re the one who’s ignorant and blinded by anti-EU propaganda? It’s easy to assume the other side is in the wrong when you don’t bother asking why they hold that opinion.

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        “I think most voters were fooled by propaganda. Noel Gallagher had a decent take on this.

        “Do I think we should leave? I don’t think we should be given a vote. I see politicians on TV every night telling us that this is a f****** momentous decision that could f****** change Britain forever and blah, blah, blah.

        “It’s like, okay, why don’t you f****** do what we pay you to do which is run the f****** country and make your f****** mind up?

        “What are you asking the people for? 99 per cent of the people are thick as pig s**t.””

        1. Sido

          So totalitarianism is the way forward? One should pay as much attention to the wisdom of Noel Gallagher as one should to the wisdom of Gob Belldoff. Though admittedly Gallagher is more amusing.

    2. Louis Lefronde

      If I hear another neo-Marxist blabber on about ‘neo-liberal elites’ I’m going to thump them. Why these semi-literate morons get so much air space in Ireland defies logic, and as usual Irish media (the laziest in Europe) doesn’t call them out on their BS. I would to see a panel where someone tells the left-wing nuts to shut the f. Up! And get over the fact that no one with an education, skill or brains wants their regressive neo Marxist utopia. As for Europe, it’s a joke and Britain, the largest sinkhole going. To be frank, no one gives a toss about our little rock in the North Atlantic, not in Brussels, not in London and certainly not in Washington. With the ‘Brits out’ Irish voices in Brussels will be heard like a wet fart in a hurricaine! As for all that nonsense that large banks will leave Ireland and go to Dublin, like f. They will. If anything they’ll head for Frankfurt.

      1. some old queen

        You’re not from round these parts so. We try to split sentences up into PowerPoint readable bits for the drunks this time of night?

      2. :-Joe

        People who ” blabber on about ‘neo-liberal elites’ ” are not necessarily ” neo-Marxist ” or the like.

        Everything you’re blabbering on about here is your anger against your own idea of what she must represent and not against any of the points in her argument or opinion of what she actually said.

        We all need less polemic thinking and try to move away from this left vs right debate.

        :-J

    1. Sido

      Well said – She is a person who judges the EU on is actions and not its hypocritical propaganda and its elitist agenda.

      1. classter

        Why does so much of the conversation around the EU have to be based in this sort of empty hyperbole, ‘hypocritical propaganda and its elitist agenda’?

        It is tiresome & useless.

  2. dav

    the euro elites and their “Kapos” in the various national parliaments have sown the seed of austerity, now they must reap the whirlwind

    1. Vote Rep #1

      Indeed, lets get out of the EU and go back to before dastardly EU were able to sown the seed of austerity on us.

      I for one cannot wait for the glory days of the 80s in Ireland to return.

    1. Anne

      I saw that.. Mary Lou didn’t look impressed. I’m not sure Catherine meant anything by it though.

      Mary Lou is painful to listen to, I have to say.. She speaks like a school principal.

      1. Seamus Ward

        Mary Lou and SF have comfounded me .. totally lost in all this , they neither yea or nay .. no positives or planning .. just thinking out loud as they go along ……………..a party to be avoided at all costs ..

  3. Panty Christ

    Her point about nice and lisbon are spot on. As much as we don’t like the brexit result, the majority voted for it and as such, should be respected. Irish Media outlets hounding English people for their decision is very ludicrous. FG are proud supporters of the Tory conservative party. Never forget that.

    1. Bob

      That majority voted for Nice and Lisbon the second time around. Why should their decision be ignored? It’s moronic to think that once a vote is made that it should never be questioned or analysed. After the first Lisbon vote, the people were asked why they voted against it. These reasons were addressed as best they could and a vote on a modified treaty was made. That’s a brilliant thing to happen. It means the people are being listened to.

      1. Sam

        “it means the people are being listened to”… by ignoring their vote because the powers that be didn’t like it.

        We didn’t ask to vote again.
        What part of article 6 says the people don’t have final appeal, when the govt is unhappy with the result?

        Your point would have some validity if the public itself called for a rerun, and if there were actual amendments to the Treaty being voted on, rather than a non-binding declaration.

        I think it showed how weak willed we are as a nation, that the govt could get away with doing that.

        1. Vote Rep #1

          “if there were actual amendments to the Treaty being voted on, rather than a non-binding declaration.”

          They were not non-binding, there 100% legally binding.

          “EU Heads of State or Government agreed that the Decision is “legally binding and will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon”.7

          If the second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is passed, Ireland’s instrument of ratification which will also refer to the Decision, will be lodged in Rome with the Italian Government which acts as depositary for EU treaties.8”

          http://www.iiea.com/publications/lisbon-the-irish-guarantees-explained

          1. Rob_G

            +1

            Treaty put to Ireland; Ireland rejects treaty.

            Amendments made; Ireland accepts treay.

            – this is an illustration of how Europe should work

        2. Bob

          The people voted in a government that had a mandate of passing the treaty. That’s the will of the people. Or do you not like democracy…etc etc…

          1. Sam

            “The people voted in a government that had a mandate of passing the treaty. That’s the will of the people. Or do you not like democracy…etc etc…”

            Voters don’t get line approval on government agendas. Don’t pretend it’s the will of the people. We don’t have a say on the rules, otherwise we’d actually be able to call referenda ourselves, like the 1922 constitution allowed for.
            In the case of EU treaties we specifically were given a vote on those topics not because of our ‘democratic’ leaders, but because they were forced to do so by court case. According to our constitution, the rights of govt derive from the people, who are the final deciders of national questions. It’s right there in Article 6 folks.

        3. Owen C

          862k people voted against Lisbon I
          1.214mn people voted for Lisbon II. 594k people voted against Lisbon II

          On any measure at all that’s called democracy.

        1. Bob

          There is, however, a non-binding referendum that can be used as leverage for specific terms in order to stay in the EU.

    2. Grace

      If I remember rightly, far too many people voted against Lisbon because they didn’t bother their back side to either read it or do any intelligent research on what it was actually about. With voting comes responsibility and it is not good enough to say “oh i didn’t understand it so I voted no”
      If people had of engaged with the debates and what it was actually about, Coir and other No crazies wouldn’t have been so successful with their minimum wage and abortion lies.
      It was utterly right that we voted again, on the actual treaty, rather than on a bunch of lies and spin from the No side.
      God I loathe referendums.

      1. rotide

        +1

        So many people voted no on that because ‘screw the govt’. That is the most idioctic of reasons to ever vote in a referendum that has nothing to do with the govt.

        1. Andy

          Reasons to vote no were:

          1. Anti-government – which is as stupid as that moron in England voting for Brexit because the local council closed the toilets in her local park. That is the average voter right there.
          2. The impending mass conscription of boy soldiers from member states…….ffs. And since it was passed Irish conscription levels have gone through the roof. Through the roof. Through the roof……
          3. Immigration apparently according to surveys completed afterwards.

      2. LW

        The people pushing it hadn’t read it either, McCreevy was campaigning and admitted he hadn’t read it. It is a good idea to not accept something you haven’t read the terms and conditions on. And yes some changes were made to Lisbon, but not a whole lot to Nice

      3. The Real Jane

        Yep. I recall the last desperate gasp of the No campaign – if you don’t know, vote no. Which people did. And then they got a shock when they found out that voting no resulted in a no vote.

      4. Shelbyville Manhattan

        Worth pointing out that Connolly campaigned against Lisbon as it was too wordy. Because binding international Treaties between 20 odd countries are usually written in 6 bullet points over one page of A4.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          Actually, the deliberate use of legalese to mislead is a common tactic and so a legitimate grievance to campaign against.

          1. The Real Jane

            It can be, but there are times – such as in complex international treaties – where is it appropriate. Perhaps it is feasible to write the Lisbon treaty in the house style of the Sun – six word sentences of words to not exceed ten letters in single sentence paragraphs – but I doubt the translation effort would end up being worthwhile.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            I don’t know why you’re pretending the alternative to writing in legalese nonsense has to be tabloid language for simpletons.

          3. The Real Jane

            Well, that was slightly hyperbolic to make the point that the legal style of writing is the appropriate style in that context. It is a legal document and so I don’t think it’s surprising that terminology which has a certain precise legal meaning is used. If people who are accustomed to reading this material can cope with it, I would suspect that I can’t because of my shortcomings rather than because it’s an attempt to obfuscate.

          4. MoyestWithExcitement

            “If people who are accustomed to reading this material can cope with it,”

            Do you expect most of the general population to understand legalese?

            “I would suspect that I can’t because of my shortcomings rather than because it’s an attempt to obfuscate.”

            So you’re *assuming* honest motovations?

          5. The Real Jane

            I was never under the impression that international treaties were intended for general reading. It’s news to me that they’re for the consumption of any group other than legal experts.

            I’m assuming that someone who is no legal expert is not the intended audience for the material and so if I’m unable to read it it’s not because of a massive conspiracy but because I’m not legally trained.

          6. MoyestWithExcitement

            So why are the general population voting on legislation that they, according to you yourself, need special training to even read? Does that sound like a good idea?

          7. The Real Jane

            I don’t think we should be voting on it but as I understand it, it’s a constitutional requirement from a supreme court case. Personally I think it’s asking the ridiculous. Most people, even if they could understand all the material, would struggle to find the time to do the reading.

            Not entirely sure why you thought I was arguing in favour of voting for these things without reading them. I don’t think most people are qualified to be able to offer a coherent position on the minutiae of these treaties and I’m not sure, on that basis, that the referendums do any good.

            Nor do I think that they should be written in common English to facilitate that reading either. They are written in the language that has developed and has very precise meanings, to blunt that to make the treaties accessible to people who haven’t the time (or, in many cases, inclination) to read them appears to me to be abandoning a useful tool for no good reason.

          8. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Not entirely sure why you thought I was arguing in favour of voting for these things without reading them”

            Your position on confusing and incoherent legalese is that people should consider their own failings if they can’t understand it. Unless you actually think everyone is going to get legal training, you can’t realistically expect anyone to understand it before voting on it.

            “They are written in the language that has developed and has very precise meanings,”

            Can you give me any examples of something written in legalese that can’t be said in normal language?

            “to make the treaties accessible to people who haven’t the time (or, in many cases, inclination) to read them appears to me to be abandoning a useful tool for no good reason.”

            Making legalisation easier to understand for the general population is a *bad* thing?

  4. DubLoony

    The fractures in UK society were exposed by the vote.
    There are lonf standing problems that UK govt failed to solve but its easier to blame nasty EU instead of taking a closer look nearer to home.

    Old mining towns never recovered from Thatchers closues in the 80s – it was EU money that was shoring them up.
    The north-south divide of London sucking talent, investment to it, leaving norhtern towns decimated.
    Scotlands quest for independence as no conservative governemnt has ever represented them
    UK is a class ridden society. The irony of people blaming EU for lack of democracy when their head of state is a Queen, House of Lords the same. Dukes, Lords, Barons, Princes, Sirs & Dames – all of their own problems.
    They are post-colonial and can’t stand the children of those colonies living there.

    EU isn’t perfect, but most of the problems, like the Briexit vote, are self-inflicted.

    1. rotide

      Lets not forget they voted to leave because they didn’t want ‘unelected elites’ calliung the shots but within the next couple of weeks, guess whos going to be the prime minister?
      Yep, an unelected elite.

        1. Me

          Not to mention the FPTP system that returns a majority government on 1/3 of the votes. The planned boundary changes will add to that too.
          I remember the run up to the AV referendum a few years back there was a billboard campaign with a picture of a soldier on it and the tagline ‘He needs body armour not an alternative voting system’, or words to that effect. Incredible.

          1. Sido

            Well it is an imperfect system but hopefully, at least, they will get some form of democracy back,

    2. LW

      I agree about exposing the fractures. The dissatisfaction in places in the North and in Wales about the state of their localities wasn’t recognised, and the fact that London is (was) on balance satisfied gave them a false sense of security about the whole country. I think it’s a parallel of what happened here during the general election, when “keep the recovery going” failed to gain traction outside of Dublin

        1. The Real Jane

          Yep. I see that Cornwall voted no and are now looking for central government to replace all the subsidies from the EU in the most baffling move possible.

          Hard not to feel sorry for these no voters, though. When they do the vox pops, you can always see before they even speak which people voted no – it’s always the people whose poverty is painfully visible. These are the people who are suffering and will continue to suffer. The reasonably well off, educated people will be fine in the medium term but the status of the leavers will continue to decline because if anyone thinks that the Tory government are going to be pouring cash into the worst affected areas in the UK, they’re off their collective chumps.

          1. Owen C

            “Hard not to feel sorry for these no voters, though”

            Actually, its incredibly easy not to feel sorry for them. If you believe in democracy, you believe in people living with their decisions. If you make a stupid decision (vote no), don’t be surprised about the stupid outcomes.

          2. Nigel

            I feel sorry for people who do stupid things all the time. I tend the draw the line at people who do it maliciously or repeatedly and recklessly, but for the rest, there but for the grace of God and all that.

    3. Sido

      The Benn Test as divised by the father of Hilary Benn – Tony Benn, a decent and honest socialist politician. Was a series of questions one must ask of politicians, Question 5) Was how can I get rid of you? (if I don’t think you are any good)
      The answer, though imperfect, is in a democracy, you get to vote for who represents you every four or five years.
      The EU isn’t a democracy, we don’t vote for anyone except a bunch of powerless MEPs. We have no idea about how the likes of Donald Tusk and Jean Claude Junker, are chosen, or why for that matter, Angela Merkel is/was negotiating, on our behalf with Turkey.

      They are corrupt elitist totalitarians who sell themselves, to the foolish as concerned SJWs

      1. The Real Jane

        *We have no idea about how the likes of Donald Tusk and Jean Claude Junker, are chosen*

        Well the information is there for people who choose to read it. It’s not actually a secret.

      2. Fact Checker

        Jean-Claude Juncker was the ‘Spitzenkandidat’ for the European Christian Democrats in 2014 to be Commission President. Martin Schultz was the equivalent for the European socialists. There were actual TV debates between them (not in English I think).

        Christian Democrats did better than the Socialists in the European elections. The Council respected this result and appointed Juncker as Commission President. This was not unanimous – the UK government was very much against him, and in public.

        It may not be democracy as you know it practiced but it is not totalitarianism either.

      3. Vote Rep #1

        We have no idea about how the likes of Donald Tusk and Jean Claude Junker, are chosen

        Ok, lets look at Juncker, the president of the Commission and how he is elected.

        Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union, as amended by the Treaty of Lisbon, lays out the procedure for appointing the President and his team. The European Council [ is the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission] votes by qualified majority for a nominee for the post of President, taking account of the latest European elections.

        This proposal is then put before Parliament [the institution of the European Union (EU) that comprises the heads of state or government of the member states, along with President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission] which must approve or veto the appointment. If an absolute majority of MEPs support the nominee, he/she is elected.

        So, people who are elected by the people of Europe elect the president of the commission yet, in your eyes, this is not democracy.

        1. Andy

          I read here recently that “in the age of the internet ignorance is a choice”

          I think that is sadly the case for most people. People are lazy and would rather believe something someone tells them that reconfirms their beliefs rather than actually examine it for themselves.

      4. Owen C

        the people who are seemingly most worried about the lack of European democracy seem to be the ones most ignorant about how it actually works. European democracy is a shared community democracy at the upper levels, where each community (country) relies to at least some extent on the democratic decisions of the other countries to govern such a large and complex union (qualified majority voting, veto powers, EU commissioners). Almost all EU officials are either directly elected by the citizens at some level (the leader of the Eurogroup is typically the Finance Minister of a member country), or chosen by directly elected officials (EU commissioners are nominated by governments). Further, all of these officials are accountable either to their national governments or the European Parliament.

  5. edalicious

    I can’t get over the amount of people that completely disregard the fast that after we voted down Nice and Lisbon, they went off and made amendments to both of them, as a compromise, before asking us to vote on them again. Surely this is a good thing? We didn’t like it so they went off and changed it for us, because we didn’t like it, and then asked us again.

    1. rotide

      +1.

      Certain people seem to regard the first no votes as a sign that we wanted to leave the eu rather than just a vote against the particular treaty.

    2. The Real Jane

      I think it’s because so much of our media is imported from the euroskeptic UK where they don’t make any effort to understand EU or Irish matters so they repeat this lie and people don’t bother thinking about it very much or wondering whether that was actually what happened when they were voting those times or did something else happen?

      There are at least two people commenting here who are utterly impervious to any argument making the same recycled Sun/Daily Mail arguments over and over again and clearly not reading or understanding or replying to any answers they get. They have been doing this for a fortnight and will be angrily posting the same nonsense tomorrow and getting the same replies which they are unwilling or unable to process.

      It’s unfortunate, but there are many people who assume that if they don’t know something, it’s unknowable or a big secret or conspiracy. Adult comics aimed at the hard of reading exacerbate this and sadly, there’s no shame in being utterly misinformed by cretinous soundbites.

  6. rotide

    It’s horrifying to think that if we ran an Irexit referendum there would be people voting leave.

    Unbelievavble.

    1. LW

      If 4% of UKIP can vote against Brexit, anything is possible. Doubt an equivalent here would win though.

      1. Bob

        A lot of people who didn’t realise that it would actually mean leaving the EU, apparently.

        1. Sido

          “Wouldn’t” – Bob the Irish haven’t voted on their membership of the EU. So they can’t “didn’t”. Which was the point rotide was making.

          If you are referring to the UK exit referendum. It is the case., that the Guardian and BBC (primarily) are propagandising for the EU, to the effect that “a lot of people” now regret voting out of that institution. They do this without mentioning the substantial financial kickbacks they receive from the EU btw.

          1. Andy

            Jesus christ,

            How did Ireland get into the EU then?

            Hint. 1973 referendum – 70% turnout, 80% voted for it.

      2. Nigel

        Lots of people eager to kick the government of the day in the teeth because apparently that’s how referenda work in Ireland? Politics trumps policy with depressing regularity.

    2. Steve

      But you seem to forget that it’s the fault of the elites, the bankers , the technocrats, the lobbyists, the European Commission, the Council, the ECJ, the media, the government, the venture capitalists, the vulture funds , the immigrants and on and on and on…for everything .

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        You’re wrong about the immigrants but on the money about the rest. Profits are up while wages are down. It’s not too difficult to work out.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            Ah, so you’re just a vacuous slogan chanter who doesn’t understand what he writes. Fair enough.

    3. Charley

      It would be a close run thing, EU grants would be thin on the ground in urban areas, people are still sore about the EU forcing bank debt on us and the embarrassment of Kenny getting his head patted is a source of national shame

  7. Mourinho

    I’d vote leave because of lobbyists, the secrecy around TTIP, and the treatment given to Cyprus.

  8. Jake38

    Remember. This country was an economic wasteland before it joined the EU and it could be so again.

    1. The Real Jane

      Easily.

      And more of a social wasteland as well. Dread to think where we’d be if it wasn’t for the EU in terms of gay rights, for example. They had to force us to take some very cautious steps into the modern world.

      1. Vote Rep #1

        All we have to do is not pay our taxes and then blame others when it all goes wrong.

  9. Eoin

    The EU seems to operate on threats rather than promises. Draghi has just been in a press conference where he seems to be suggesting some sort of fresh bank bailout….(I think the Italian banks need 40 billion real soon to prevent trouble) or maybe they’ll just take the deposits of everyone and declare a bail in. The laws for doing that are already in place. But most don’t know that because it’s only reported in the back pages. A free trade and travel zone was a great idea. The euro was a risk. But the whole thing has morphed into a nightmare. And saying things would probably be worse if were not attached to that nightmare is not good enough. Threats of worse is now all the EU has going for it.

  10. human

    Most people on here don’t run a business but if they did they would know our future is with the UK not mainland europe.

  11. 15 cent

    the Eu’s reaction to Brexit is very telling. To come out and say ‘get out as quick as you can so’ is such a hissy fit response. They’ve been awful bullies to us, but we literally need them because we can’t manage our own money and need constant loans. Also, having the freedom of the continent and tax breaks is very important. Other than that they’ve been ripping us off on every turn. Now saying that water charge are EU law is completely ridicuolous, and very exposing of whats to come if charges arrive, because why the hell would they make it law to charge for water? its nothing to do with them… or it shouldnt be. they’re making it law because they’ll make a fortune off it. making laws for that reason is the disgusting side to the EU.

  12. Mulder

    Can just say, start there with atypical politican speak.
    The concept of Europe as one big happy family.
    Some, 60 years back all these countries were literally at each others throats.
    Some of them have not forgotten or forgiven that.
    The original old EEC, or the 6 main countries of that, worked fairly well.
    Though now have, bassets all sorts, so many different countries all with different agendas and problems.
    They could not agree on colour of sh..
    Uk, were never really happy with Europe going back to Thatcher and before.
    Obviously, no one, ever thought that a leader of one of main European countries would be stupid enough to actually have a referendum on membership.
    So it be a shock, for everyone.
    It begs a question, if Uk voted to leave, what would other countries do.
    Not Ireland, who have the snout firmly wedged in the trough but France, Italy, Spain even Germany.
    The other effect of brexit is not to sideline Ireland but effectively down grade Ireland.
    In other words, Ireland, given population, size, will bear the brunt.
    So no worries, everyone will be happy in Europe, aside from us, again.
    Might add the spectre of Ireland in the person of lame Enda going over to Uk to lecture the brits, does not and did not go down too well.
    To point where even Cameron, cancelled a joint, appearance with Enda.
    Who is seen in Europe as a clown and gobdaw.
    As infamous photo of President of France, some years ago, catching, Enda by back of the neck as if he was a naughty, school boy. he would not be doing that with Frau Merkel or Obama or Cameron.
    But then Europe is a continent of unequals know that from, the bailout fallout.

    1. rotide

      After trying and failing to read this, I have to say there’s something to be said for Joyce’s non-use of punctuation.

  13. Mulder

    Indeed, that is what some Europeans, say as joke.
    That irish can not see the bigger picture or past the snout in the trough.
    Other, pass time here as in some parts of Uk is to shoot the messenger.
    But hey.

  14. Kieran NYC

    Brendan Ogle was quick off the mark this morning calling for Ireland to leave the EU over water charges.

    Absolute fanatical cretin.

    1. Deluded

      Brian Hayes MEP (Fine Gael) was quoted on the front page of the Irish Independent yesterday as saying that Ireland’s corporate tax-rate was a “red-line issue” and any effort to address it would mean Ireland following England out of the EU.
      I definitely think we have the ingredients here for the poorest people giving the richest people the power to cut loose from pesky regulations, standards and oversight.

      One point from the article: “…we have a country where we have to get permission to build homes for our people…”, is that about planning permission?

  15. :-Joe

    I would like the E.U. to address all these issues, adjust and move on. If that takes a load of referendums and a couple of years of voting and re-runs then so be it. If the citizens were more involved and had to vote regularly on things they majority would actually know what is going on and would care about doing something about it.

    If you want a real democracy you have to take responsibility and be engaged with the process in some way as an active citizen and not just a passive voter.

    The E.U. and it’s citizens have a seriously bad communication problem between them that goes far beyond the biased agendas and misinformation and lazy or wilful ignorance.

    Anywya, no need to panic folks, we’ll fix it together or we’ll watch it burn and do something else… then eventually somewhere ahead.. well, we’ll be dead.

    :-J

  16. The Mighty Quinn

    Conspiracy theories of white and black genocide,see Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi, connected with the EU,aside.The EU has no plan of any kind.It is little more than a debating society run by failed Politicians, and their advisors.Like our own government they are weak,liberal minded buffoons. Also today’s citizens are weak,and are afraid to tell the truth,at least many of them are.I and many of my friends have consistenty voted no to oppressive EU and Irish directives,personally I constantly pester my TD about immigration, water charges,health and so on,and they tell me I am the only one moaning,but I keep at her and will continue to do so,in the hope more will make them earn and serve,the electorate.Didn’t the people make water charges such an issue,they backed off.Well done the UK,you will suffer discomfort for a while, but by making your decisions in the end you will be OK.I read every treaty,bill and candidate manifesto etc. And ask questions of my TD on everything.I pay my taxes,have children in school and college, work very hard and just about fit in my tenacious pestering of all things political,that get my melt.The EU is a joke,bringing war and pestulance to my beautiful country,I don’t want Diversity, mass immigration, I am Irish and refuse to change for anyone,I don’t have anything in common with the so called new Irish and I don’t want to be accepting and friendly.If you want to live in my country,you should have to apply,be fully vetted and you must work and pay your own way.Politicians work for us,and should do as they are instructed,and I am just about sick of the EU deciding who does what,and throwing us a bone every now and then.I long for the punt,bent bananas and all things Irish.Dare we dream that these simple things will return. Remember now a TD is there to comply,let’s all have a good moan.EU we are stronger robbing you blind.

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