Turned Out Nice

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08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

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08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

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08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

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08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured Glen Hansard sings to thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

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08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured Paul Murphy TD speaking to thousands of people who protested in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured Joan Collins TD speaking to thousands of people who protested in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

08/04/2017. Right 2 Water protest. Pictured Trade Unionist Brendan Ogle speaking to thousands of people protest in Dublin city this afternoon against the charging of water. The Protest is trying to keep preassure on the Government to get rid of charging for water and the charges to be dropped against people who took part in water protests in the past. Photo: Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie

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This afternoon.

Dublin city centre.

Thousands take to the streets for the latest Right2Water protest which included a rally in College Green featuring leading anti-water charge activists Brendan Ogle, Mary Lou McDonald TD, Paul Murphy TD and Joan Collins TD plus a performance by musician Glenn Hansard.

Rollingnews

172 thoughts on “Turned Out Nice

    1. Mé Féin

      There were less than 100 people there and all of them from the sinister fringe — water bombers don’t ya know.

    1. jusayinlike

      Who? fine gael.. yea I totally agree, with their lamentable attempt to try and privatize water in Ireland..

      1. Ratatattat

        Even if they did ( and I do more or less agree with you on that) and have now had to back down from that, on what basis do these anti-social thugs, windbags and degenerates who comprised the “anti water movement” propose any sort of meaningful alternative to a fair charge for a public utility?

        Present your alternative proposal that also widens the tax base like in any other civilised western nation or else shut yer fupping dumb gob

        1. ahjayzis

          We could charge corporations the actual rate of corporation tax we cite as already being quite low at 12.5%. I mean that’s not ‘expanding’ the tax base but it probably makes sense to actually collect the tax owed before finding new sources, non?

        1. mildred st. meadowlark

          Lighten up, my dear jusayin.

          The Nice Young Chap is clearly acting the maggot.

          1. Kieran Nice Young Chap

            No, Sheik accused me of being detrimental to the country.

            So I’m sorry. Everything that happened since he was 16 is my fault, apparently. All because I think people who use a lot of water should pay for it.

          2. Sam

            “All because I think people who use a lot of water should pay for it.”

            Care to point us at a charging system that reflects that desire? Having a large flat charge, regardless of usage, means that you can either waste as much as you consume, or not use any water for a whole year, without making a huge difference to the amount of revenue collected.

            That’s a revenue collecting exercise, not a water conservation policy.

    1. Zena

      How many brown envelopes have you accepted in your time, Rotide? Not enough, obviously…..

      1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

        Saying we’re the most corrupt country on earth is pretty moronic, in fairness. Hyperbole will never win you an argument.
        And I’m not the recipient of any brown envelopes, sadly.

      2. rotide

        Ever paid a speeding ticket Zena? How about boarded a flight? Maybe applied for or renewed some sort of document like a drivers licence? Been in hospital?

        In the course of those things do you pay bribes?

        This country is so far away from the ‘most corrupt country on earth’ it makes anyone even lending credence to that sort of idiocy look like a moron. Like you Zena.

        1. Zena

          @ Rotide

          Anyone that doesn’t hold the same opinion as you, is a moron in your view. What are you, TD, priest, guard, journalist? The hungry paws on you are welll greased anyway, that much is clear from your ongoing anti-corruption spiel.

          What new investigations, enquiries and whistle-
          blowing scenarios will unfold this week, I wonder?

          1. newsjustin

            In fairness, Ireland is not even close to being one of the most corrupt countries on earth. Like really, really no close. Anyone who believes it is, is either tragically ill-informed and will believe anything, or a moron.

          2. rotide

            You seem to be having real trouble differentiating between ‘corruption’ and ‘most corrupt’

            Maybe spend tommorow looking it up?

          3. Zena

            @ Rotide

            Your smug retorts on threads regarding Cynthia Owen, Mary Bolye, IW, Gardai corruption, TD expenses and certain angles of journalism, show you to be the epitome of what is wrong with this country. Your sociopathic lack of empathy is atrocious at best.

          4. rotide

            You must be imagining things or stalking me , I barely comment on any of the garda threads and my comments on the others relate to other peoples complete ignorance of legal and journalistic standards.

            But hey, two can tango, Your contributions basically boil down to the ‘one like=one prayer’ approach of facebook.

          5. rotide

            I also notice you completely failed to address my point and chose instead to play the man instead.

          6. Zena

            @ Rotide

            If someone has summed up exactly what my opinion is, a +1 is all that’s required, there’s no need for me repeating what’s already been said, I comment when idiocy needs dominates the platform a little too much…

            Don’t flatter yourself on the stalking front – I’m not on here every day, when I am, your biased, closed and disgusting comments stand out. There are ways to disagree with others without
            shhhmoooozing your slippery, smugness over opposing views.

            beacon.

          7. rotide

            Since you have strayed so far off topic and have resorted to just AdHom attacks ad nauseaum, I’m just going to assume you have accepted that you were completely wrong.

            Apology accepted.

        2. Zena

          @ News

          You’re a priest, your opinion doesn’t count. Trust you to pipe up. How is your new car, that your parish put under your ar$e, going for you? How long does it take you to zip down to Maynooth for your Grindr hook-ups?

          1. Zena

            Rotide, know your place, I’m not answerable to you or anyone, you were just detracting, anyway.

            The truth is tough leveller, learn from it.

            When the Florida night-club atrocity happened, you showed your true colours in your comments then. Nothing’s changed. You’re poison.

          2. Zena

            Rotide, I will not give your insulting comments a second airing. You stand by them, enough said.

            Off you trot now for your dinner, take it easy at the trough.

          3. rotide

            “You said something awful, although I will offer no actual evidence of what you said”

            If you have anything specific to take up with me, be my guest, otherwise continue wasting your employers time.

          4. Zena

            I work for myself but thanks for your concern.

            You know what you are and you don’t need me to post links to all your sickening spews to have it confirmed., At this stage of your life you’ll hardly change, there’s always hope though I suppose, lost causes etc.

            Stop to consider the effects of your contraversial trolling.

        3. ahjayzis

          +1

          We’re not Italy in that respect. But we do suffer an inordinate amount of widespread organisational incompetence. Which in itself is a form of corruption. When you appoint ministers based on geographical spread rather than competence, that’s corruption.

          1. scottser

            i have to apply for a new connection and irish water have to sign off on the plan, so the website routes all lead you to an online application form. i had the engineer submit all the plans online and 3 weeks later, still haven’t heard anything. i finally got through to the new connections team who tell me – ‘ah no, sure there’s no point applying online. what you do is download the form, fill it in manually and then email it as a pdf to us’.
            @ssholes.

  1. Harry Molloy

    And no arrests because that is what an actual peaceful protest looks like. Not like the “protest” in jobstown that Murphy and the likes believe they are being victimised over.

    I don’t agree with it but well done to all involved for a model protest. Now please tell me what’s wrong with charging for excessive use :-)

        1. jusayinlike

          An Irish water bill, jaysus Harry they screwed up my bill 3 times and billed dead people, that’s a fairly bad example to be fair..

        2. Sam

          I once worked in a small office, and according to the water meter readings we were using 1000 litres of water a day. We disputed the reading, cos there was only two of us in the office most of the time.
          A ‘dedicated leak inspection’ person was dispatched, and asked me if I thought the leak might be in the attic. I pointed out the impossibility of walking on dry carpet beneath an intact ceiling if there was a leak of that size in the attic.

          The same guy also seemed disinterested when I pointed out the sound of continuous water flowing from an unoccupied property 15 metres from us.

          Eventually we had the pipes uncovered and looked at, and dang if there wasn’t a leak a few inches from where the meter had been installed. It had made itself a nice little sink hole below the tarmac.
          We told them to stuff their bill,and their threats of suing for non-payment, as we suspected that at best, negligence on the part of the installer had lead to several thousand litres of water leaking into the ground.

          To match that level of waste we would have had to been flushing the toilet a ridiculous amount of times per day, and providing tea for the neighbourhood.

          Water conservation is not the point of metering. If it was, they would be testing for leaks before and after installation.

          1. Fact Checker

            And – please tell – how would this leak have been discovered were it not for premises-level metering?

          2. Sam

            Uh, Fact Checker, – you want to tell me, how you could install a meter inches from a leak and not notice it?
            The guy who uncovered our leak reckoned it was most likely caused by the contractors shoddy installation procedure as they tried to get in every meter as quickly as possible.

            But, let’s say that this was not the case. Is it necessary to meter every single premises to detect leaks? Couldn’t you measure the consumption of an entire street?

            If you have a burst mains for the street, then you can tell fairly quickly. If there’s a small leak, like 1000 litres a day, then usage never drops to zero even in the dead of night, then you investigate further. There’s no need to a) dig a hole in front of every single house and b) make their water usage accessible to anybody curious enough to flip open a plastic lid.

            Tell me, is your electricity meter also visible to passers by outside the property?

          3. Fact Checker

            I don’t doubt your anecdote. There are incompetent people in every trade. I am not sure what it proves though.

            I am not an engineer, but I have heard people with the relevant expertise saying that household-level metering is the only way to discover leaks which are at the level of the, well, household. And this is where a large chunk of the leaks are.

            I listened to Newstalk’s Talking Point of 1 April here (http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Talking_Point/about/). It featured a lady called Mairead Sheridan who manages a group water scheme in Cavan. Her scheme introduced metering in 2007 and as a result they found that consumption fell by one half.

            And yes, as you ask, I am in the unusual situation of having an electricity meter box accessible by anyone who wishes to look. This tells the world almost nothing about me. And my water consumption would tell you even less.

          4. Sam

            Are you saying that your electricity meter can be read without even coming onto the property, i.e. from the public footpath? That is indeed unusual, and while you may not think much of it, knowing how much of a utility someone consumes, and when (and not) can be valuable information to people other than the utility providers.

            You have to weigh up the cost / benefit of installing meters in every property, digging up holes and risking new leaks against the probability of the street having significant leaks.

            It would be a better use of resources to meter by streets / blocks, and only investigate further if there appeared to be a problem.

          5. Fact Checker

            Yes.

            Assuming there is someone strange enough to surreptitiously read my meter at regular intervals and calculate my average consumption, who on earth is this information ‘valuable’ to?

            As for metering households, the original FF-Green logic (now forgotten by everyone) was: if you are going to charge for water then it is only equitable to meter so that people can lower their bills by consuming less.

            The cost-benefit analysis for this was ambiguous. Yes, you reduce leaks but you also have the once-off cost of installing meters.This was a POLITICAL decision not an ENGINEERING one. For example in most of England they meter new properties or on request of the household only.

            However by now the cost of installing the meters to 850,000 households in Ireland is irretrievable. Now that the meters are in place it makes sense to use them.

            There have been some utterly bizarre calls from some activists to spend even more money on removing them!

      1. Murtles

        Example of excessive use : Paddy Culchie Farmer connects the hose to an outdoor tap on his farm and runs it to a trough for cattle. Turns on taps and lets it run……forever. Knew one of these type of boggers personally and he had been approached three or four times by authorities to get him to stop. Eventually the Council paid to put in a timer system.

        1. Rob_G

          Hmmm – he must be the only farmer in the country that is hooked up to the mains water system…

          Smell of cattle effluent off this comment…

    1. Sam

      Do you know the difference between applying S.9 of the Public Order Act for blocking the flow of a vehicle or person, and claiming false imprisonment?
      There’s excessive use of charging right there, and it has a political motive.

      Now, where is you’re evidence of excessive use by households? And why are we not charging massive consumers like industry on the same basis?
      There’s more water lost through poor infrastructure than could ever be wasted by the excessive use that you seem so worked up about.

          1. Ratatattat

            People who oppose the equitable system of metered consumption based levying of water charges offer no concrete or clear alternative and create a miasma about the system falling into private ownership that they wrongly think misleads or distracts the rest of us away from the scent. In fact public ownership of essential services is as often as not an unmitigated and expensive fraud in this country, as a cursory look at the waiting lists in public hospitals, the Bus Eireann dispute or the excessive salaries paid to ESB workers would attest. But hey feel free to call me names etc – it’s all you are capable of clearly.

      1. Brother Barnabas

        does that comment mean something, Kieran? or is just a cheap belittling of someone you disagree with? genuinely interested if it matters

        1. Kieran Nice Young Chap

          Maybe I’m suggesting he’s bandwagon-hopping, much like his “support” of Home Sweet Home. Not actually putting in hard graft for causes he “believes in”.

          Who knows?

          “…aaaaand the auld triaaaanlge…went jingle jaaaangle…”

      2. Ratatattat

        You’re an absolute joke. A parody of the bitter old disgruntled emigrant who blames certain sections of the “old country” for every single thing that gone wrong in your own life? I bet you wash dishes for a living.

        1. ifitwasinyourmouthyoudcallitbig@memes

          Leave Brother Bonobo-worrier alone.
          FFS, he’s funnier than you.

          Get a grip, girls. ♡♡♡

          1. brokenback@gaymemes

            This site has lost the ru n of itself. It used to be better.
            …according to eh.. according to…
            …eh…

            Y’know something…Leather Jacket Guy contributes more than you do.

            There
            I said it.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      isn’t he just? I mean, imagine getting involved in a cause and sticking with it for years, long after it stopped being fashionable? Like, seriously, what a d1ck!

      1. Sheik Yahbouti

        Brother, don’t bother with them, I won’t. It was a great protest, with fine speakers. Amongst the most powerful were Vera Twomey and Terry McMahon.

        1. martco

          take note FG/FF

          keep believing yer D4 newspaper polls but I suspect the numbers aren’t going to be so hot for u come next General Election, eh? (only currency ye understand, votes innit)

          good days work that

    2. Topsy

      Digs, ohhh he’ll be really worried about your insignificant opinion of him or anything else for that matter.

  2. mildred st. meadowlark

    People are just a bit mad when it comes to water.

    I don’t get it.

    It’s been an absolutely glorious Saturday. Let’s just soak that in a minute.

    1. Sheik Yahbouti

      Yes, it would appear that you really don’t get it. Today was a lovely, sunny day.

        1. Kieran Nice Young Chap

          Any recommendations for this time of year? My aul fella loves gardening but he could do with a few new ideas tbh :)

      1. Kieran Nice Young Chap

        Denis O’Brien is going to sell it to Soros who will turn it into a pizza parlor!

          1. Kieran Nice Young Chap

            Clearly that’s false because bisted…would have…already…exposed the Jewish angle because they’re already busy running Irish Water, Road Tax and the Garda Siochána

            Also “Alan Shatter”.

          2. jusayinlike

            Cheap shots drizzled in sour grapes, your probably frothing at the mouth at this stage Kieran..

      2. MoyestWithExcitement

        Normal people want it. You right wing freaks are the only ones saying we should just trust the government. Sad little weirdos.

  3. Starina

    i was going to make a joke about yer wan looking like mary lou…but t’s actually mary lou

  4. yesimdrunk@memes.com LTD

    I have finally reached that Zen state where I can delete my own comments, sometimes before I even post them, some other times afterwards.
    That’s why you can’t read this.

    Deal with it, or do something worthwhile. I dont mind. Im drunk.

  5. swinghigher@memes.inc

    Excuse me, but I like to browse Broadsheet at the weekend with my family.
    At least six of my children are under 10yrs of age and I think some of them can read.
    These thinly cloaked innuendos that people like me post are entirely inappropriate. Where is the censorship? Eh?

    Eh?

    I didn’t drag myself out of bed to bring my kids to school to learn how to read this filth.
    It’s political correctly gone made Stan.

  6. RuilleBuille

    Great to be part of the massive ‘sinister fringe’ yesterday.

    Reading the comments on here I see there are still a few scared to stand up for their rights – as it ever was.

    1. Harry Molloy

      The sinister fringe was the likes of what happened in Jobstown, and the harassing of Irish water staff.

      Yesterday was a model demonstration.

      There’s a huge difference between the two.

      It’s a massive shame it’s not sunny again today :-(

      1. MoyestWithExcitement

        I think if there was any doubts that Harry was a lying right wing ideologue who presents himself as a centrist to give weight to the right wing talking points he mindlessly regurgitates, his disgusting comments about Muslims and his bootlicking on this thread should cast those doubts aside.

      2. larrgerthanlife@memes

        Harry, my friend…
        I live in Jobstown. What are you gonna do about it?

        People like you who need an underclass to define themselves by hae NO class.
        ‘SCUM rises, or so they say…

        1. Harry Molloy

          I don’t appreciate any talk of class, we’re not living in England, this is a republic. and I would be from a poor house in one of the poorest parts of this country so I have no idea what point you’re trying to make

          1. Harry Molloy

            Nonsense, but that may be how you want to see it.

            We’re talking about two different protests. One ugly, one a model protest.

            I don’t know who attended either except for tho politicians that were there.

            This is another typical example of trying to discredit a valid point by slapping a label of bigotry on who was saying it which is a little lazy tbh.

          2. Ratatattat

            There was nothing sinister about the protest in Jobstown. You may not have agreed with the method or style of protest against the Minister on that occasion but the idea which is implied by that term which you parrot like a well trained monkey is that it was part of some vast organised conspiracy sponsored by criminal elements. When in fact any reasonable and objective observer would conclude it was a few head the balls losing the head after consuming a few red bulls and being whipped into a frenzy by cynical opportunists like Deputy Paul Murphy.

            That you’re all too willing to parrot the party line from Pravda reveals your inherently classist mindset. Like I said you’re probably not even aware that you’re doing it. Being from a poor family etc doesn’t not make you a snob, the worst snobs often and sadly are the poor

            “Such a snob idolizes and imitates, if possible, the manners, worldview, and lifestyle of a classification of people to which they aspire, but do not belong, and to which they may never belong (wealthy, famous, intellectual, beautiful, etc.).”

          3. Harry Molloy

            why be so nasty?

            I never suggested or implied there was some sort of conspiracy.

            And I agree with you that it was just a bunch of yobs whipped into a frenzy by Paul Murphy. And it was that which ended up being particularly vicious.

            And the difference between that type of “protest” and the one which we saw at the weekend was clear. Which is all I was saying.

            This place is a bit mad sometimes, if you’re not opposed to water charges and and if you don’t believe that anything is fair game with regards to protesting you’re accused of being a rabid right winger.

          4. Ratatattat

            We can talk about you want to all day if you’re feeling so insecure all of a sudden at having your personal prejudices explained to you

            However the subject changed then and the one under discussion was that you asked Memes to explain his comments and what he meant. I’ve tried to set it out for you as I understand them.
            That the truth hurts doesn’t make it any less relevant.

          5. MoyestWithExcitement

            “And I agree with you that it was just a bunch of yobs whipped into a frenzy by Paul Murphy.”

            Blatant lies like this are why “you’re accused of being a rabid right winger.”

          6. MoyestWithExcitement

            1. That that was what Rattatat said.
            2. That they were yobs.
            3. That Paul Murphy was responsible for their actions.

          7. Ratatattat

            Well spotted Moyest. We see this kind of playbook day in and day out in Oirish media particularly Newstalk which I am certain sure Harry laps up for breakfast, Dinner and tea. It’s an awful lot like the racist attitude to travellers many people have – they don’t even concern themselves with analysis of their own knees jerking for Ireland.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      I’d be inclined towards the view that all rumours are true. It’s just more fun that way.

  7. No2NumbersInSentences

    Water charges will still exist through the tax system. Unless you abolish water, or humans, there’ll always be a cost to deliver it to your taps in one form or another, paid for by the humans who use it. To suggest anything otherwise is just nonsense.

    1. Sam

      Did you get to this argument late or something?
      Did you imagine that before someone thought of Irish Water, that the pipes, the reservoirs, etc were all provided for free, and not paid for out of general taxation? We’ve already been down this road and seen VAT increased to pay for water provision, so why pay twice? Whose pockets does that line? The Irish Water execs who have gold plated health plans for themselves and their spouses? The 5K bonuses from IW staff?

      1. anne

        + motor tax.

        it’s just a failed money making racket.

        healthcare should be provided for out of general taxation . Everyone pays tax whether they work or not, but it’s being so underfunded people have to buy private health insurance.

        same idea with water..underfund it for decades and then tell people they have to cough up again.

        the taxpayer is everyone..except the very wealthy it seems.
        there’s only so much you can squeeze out of people to fund bail outs for the wealthy.

        1. shelovesme@me, me, memes dot yeah!

          Thank you Anne.
          Although I could have phrased it more eloquenntly and made it much funnier without even trying…
          I also would’ve used less words.

          #YOULOVEME
          #STOPMESSING

          #onlymessing

        2. Fact Checker

          The issue of how water services is funded is one issue.

          The issue of how efficiently it is spent is another.

          Many people like to conflate the two, but really they are very separate.

          Pre-Irish Water, the provision of urban water and wastewater services in Ireland was by all accounts provided at much greater cost than anywhere comparable: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-mccarthy/unprecedented-display-of-abject-spinelessness-35607303.html

          Local authorities – for a range of capacity, resource and legal issues – were never going to magically turn into an efficiently-managed providers in this regard.

        3. Turgenev

          Motor tax (and insurance) should be funded through the price of petrol. That way, the more you drive, the more you pay for your pollution, and nobody can dodge it.

          1. Rob_G

            This is a very good idea – all the money spent administering motor tax would be dispensed with.

          2. Fact Checker

            Except you would still need some system for keeping track of all vehicles currently on the road, which would have to be paid for……

          3. Fact Checker

            For all sorts of good reasons all countries keep up-to-date registers of all vehicles on their roads.

            There are many ways of doing it but it needs regular interaction with the owner and is costly to administer.

            Most countries bolt a tax system on to it too.

            Taxing cars is not very economically efficient in my view. It is very easy to administer however. Cars are very difficult to hide, unlike many sources of income and other forms of wealth.

            Motor tax takes in a about billion in Ireland but costs about €50m to administer. VRT and excise on fuel both take in more each per annum than motor tax the last time I checked btw.

            Anyway way off topic, so to quote David Byrne: “And I asked myself, ‘how did I get here?'”

          4. Rob_G

            That’s why I think it the register should be kept through insurance; every car on the road needs to be insured, so it would be the logical way to do it.

            Motor tax throws up some anomalies – for example, if you owned a car with a large engine, but drove it very little, you would be paying over the odds, whereas putting the motor tax on fuel duty would mean that the motorists who are emitting the most pollution would pay the most.

          5. Fact Checker

            To some extent I agree.

            It is much easier to evade paying car insurance than motor tax, which is not right.

            There is a good case for simply nationalising *third-party* insurance through fuel tax or the like. You would have a very high excess and clear pay-outs for a range of pre-defined injuries. It would save an awful lot on admin and legal costs I would think. This is how it works in New Zealand I think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporation) although I am not sure it would be compatible with EU law.

            If you wanted fully comprehensive the private market would obviously still supply this.

        1. Fact Checker

          The standard rate of VAT was increased from 21% to 23% from the first of January 2012.

          The proceeds of course went into the Exchequer, some of which went to the local authorities who were still in charge of water services until mid-2013, and Irish Water afterwards.

          It is not plausible to say that one ‘paid’ for the other. There is very little hypothecation in the Irish public finances.

  8. ahjayzis

    All the snobbery and tut-tutting is really surprising.

    Have to remind myself that the protesters won, on every single level and point of argument.

    It’s so important to remember that wherever you stand on charging for water consumption, this was an absolutely massive cockup. Papers will be written on how to poison an issue for a generation. It was to be implemented in ONE year, at the cost of hundreds of millions, on the back of a bill guillotined through the parliament, by an unpopular government after the guts of a decade of punishing austerity and other tax and charge rises. It just never was going to work, to pay money to IW would have been a humiliation too far.

    1. This monkey's gone to heaven

      Maybe you’re correct on the substantive part of your comment.

      But the majority of reasonable people here feel that in the absence of a meter-based system of assessing consumption and levying proportionate associated charges for excessive use, the end result is that society loses.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            I might have read 2 of your posts. Considering the other is you tearing into someone who regularly criticises the establishment, and all you could attack him on was delivery as opposed to content,, I’m thinking yes.

        1. This monkey's gone to heaven

          Try engaging with a real argument or civilised discussion eh?

          The majority of people certainly did not disagree with metered consumption, as it was the stated policy of the parties who attracted the majority of the votes in the last 2 elections.

          And even if I took your point that such people are ‘slogan chanters’, the problem with this reductive style of argument is that it can be just as easily applied to the people with the opposite view (and presumably yours as well).

          Are you a “left wing slogan chanter”? Have you ever stopped to consider how demeaning and redundant that style of political comment is?

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            “Try engaging with a real argument or civilised discussion eh?”

            You said this in another thread this morning;
            “Maybe stick to boring your friends down at the pub with them.”

            “The majority of people certainly did not disagree with metered consumption,”

            Yeah? There was a vote? Or are you arrogantly insisting everyone agrees with you just cuz? Or is it good aul cognitive dissonance?

            “as it was the stated policy of the parties who attracted the majority of the votes in the last 2 elections.”

            So cognitive dissonance then.

            “Have you ever stopped to consider how demeaning and redundant that style of political comment is?”

            Oh yes, demeaning is the point. Fire with fire and all that. “But the majority of reasonable people here feel that” ‘MY stance is reasonable’ is pretty demeaning, fella.

          2. This monkey's gone to heaven

            The fact is Moyest that there were several votes which elected a majority of centre right politicians (and Labour and also presumably the Greens) who all had in their manifesto that they would introduce a metered, consumption based system for charging for water use. The only cognitive dissonance there is from anyone who argues to the contrary.

            Contrarian anti water charges cranks and activists successfully argued and made loud noises about the ‘risk’ of privatisation of water, granted, but made no coherent or substantive arguments as to why that would be a bad thing, other than an ideological one. For example most of us need petrol or diesel to get around, you could easily argue petrol is an essential resource, yet most people are happy to have petrol supplied by a plethora of private companies, some of them even formerly owned by people whom you and your ilk profess to despise.

          3. MoyestWithExcitement

            “The fact is Moyest that there were several votes which elected a majority of centre right politicians (and Labour and also presumably the Greens) who all had in their manifesto that they would introduce a metered, consumption based system for charging for water use.”

            So when you vote for a party, you agree with every single thing on their manifesto? People voted FFG *because* of water charges as opposed to tribalism/habit/inertia? Cognitive dissonance. You have no coherent argument beyond ideology so you just cling to the ‘majority agree with me’ card and desperately try to come up with some angle on something as “proof” that your *feelings* are fact and/or reasoned. You’re only fooling yourself.

            “Contrarian anti water charges cranks”

            No coherent argument so you negatively characterise people with the opposing argument in order to present their argument as something you can dismiss without actually dealing with. Also, lets remember you sais this earlier “Try engaging with a real argument or civilised discussion eh?”

            “made no coherent or substantive arguments as to why that would be a bad thing, other than an ideological one. For example most of us need petrol or diesel to get around, you could easily argue petrol is an essential resource, yet most people are happy to have petrol supplied by a plethora of private companies, some of them even formerly owned by people whom you and your ilk profess to despise.”

            Criticises opponents for ideological argument, immediately makes ideological argument.

          4. This monkey's gone to heaven

            The refrain of that (heavy metal?) song “Cognitive Dissonance! Cognitive Dissonance” you’re yelling sounds like the same number which failed to make the final cut of the Eurovision last year (it went something like “Can’t Pay! Won’t Pay! Can’t Pay! Won’t Pay!” as I recall). You remember the one done by the tough-looking lad who was trying to get on the whole bearded lady bandwagon but it didn’t quite rhyme?

            Tellingly, as I’ve often noted here, when you start to lose arguments, you tend to also proportionately write more, as in cut and paste other people’s comments, and then proceed to pick imaginary holes at them (with a toothpick).

            Then, satisfied with your work, you usually strut off the stage like a demented billygoat (albeit one castrated late in life) braying “SEE! SEE!” to anyone still reading*

            *note – not one single person is

          5. Rob_G

            I, for one, am glad that Moyest is here to tell us what people were actually thinking when they voted, rather than what they thought they were thinking when they voted the way they did.

    2. classter

      The protestors did not win on ‘point of argument’, they won on frustration and a generalised desire not to pay for something else.

      truth be told, they barely engaged in the actual argument.

      1. ahjayzis

        They still won.

        Because of the mistake you’re still making, you’re conveniently ignoring the utterly grotesque monster of a quango Irish Water is. How completely devoid of emotional intelligence. The last tax rise after dozens of tax rises and charges to pay for a company run by the man who brought us the Poolbeg saga, where everyone gets a performance bonus, where an existing utility company needs 50million in consultants to tell them how to set up a utility company. A minister threatening people’s water will be cut to a trickle. Miserly personal allowances. Denis O’Brien’s pockets getting lined via a company we sold him for a song while INM gets a writedown.

        I’m genuinely not a Socialist Party/AAA/Solidarity kind of person, I’m not a firebrand, I’m a social democrat, but I’d gleefully join a boycott of IW as it is like a Frankenstein’s monster of all that’s ever been wrong with official Ireland. It was insulting how in-your-face of a fupp-you it was from a government to a people already forced to shoulder the entire burden of an economic and banking collapse.

  9. bisted

    …have to say it was fun watching the blueshirts and the brown shirts knocking lumps out of eachother here this morning…

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