Catalan referendum: Clashes as voters defy Madrid (BBC)

67 thoughts on “Autonomy

  1. John

    Crazy. See both sides to this. Madrid obviously doesn’t want Catalonian independence (maybe Basque region goes after) and will use the state’s apparatus to stop them. Should everyone that wants independence get it?

    1. Brother Barnabas

      Obviously. Just as EU didn’t want Brexit. Just as UK didn’t want Scotland to opt for independence.

      You don’t dispatch a quasi-military force to quash what’s clearly a stunt. This won’t end well. If nothing else, this will unleash intense latent fascism that’s never gone away from Spanish society. I don’t think there’s another EU state with less unity. There are at least six nations within Spain – I know Andalucians who say their Spanish identity means less to them than their European identity.

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      “Should everyone that wants independence get it?”

      Why should anyone get to decide if someone else can have independence or not?

      1. Cian

        How does it work? What is the criteria for independence?
        Can I ceceed from Ireland and make my gaff an independent state? Have my own laws? Demand diplomat immunity when I go into Ireland? Become a tax haven? Open a duty-free in my living room.

  2. John

    So what’s the option? Break Spain up into mini-states? Give them limited autonomy? Agree the Spanish response has been OTT and will just harden anti – Spain attitudes in Catalonia.

    Should any region that wants autonomy get it?

        1. Brother Barnabas

          One of the most indisputable instances of nation you’ll find anywhere in Europe, actually.

          Own language, own literature, own traditions, recorded history, defined geographical area. What else do they need?

          1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            A lot of other Spanish regions can’t stand them. Feel they were spoiled by Franco and ungrateful for all they have.
            Don’t question me in this. I’m just parroting He Who Must Not Be Named.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      The Spanish provinces already have limited autonomy. It’s effectively a federation. Catalunya is a cash cow, though. That’s why they won’t let it go. Same for Pais Vasco.

      1. Lush

        This is exactly it.
        Catalonia is Spain’s cash-cow; with the Basques not far behind. And if it comes to pass in Spain, the French will get nervous…

  3. MoyestWithExcitement

    Why should someone have a right to deny independence to a region they’re not from?

    1. rotide

      You might have to define ‘region’ there bucko.

      Spain have a legal right to deny it currently.

        1. Cian

          Do you mean
          A. What right do we, in Ireland, have to deny people in Catalonia the right to independence? Or
          B. What right does the rest of Spain have to deny Catalonia independence.

  4. RuilleBuille

    The government couldn’t have handled it any more badly. Prime Minister Rajoy is looking more like Erdgan.

  5. Johnny Keenan

    I lived in Barcelona for a year in 2004 and saw first hand how the cops operate. From working in cahoots with Moroccan and Senegalese pick pockets off Les Rambles and riot pigs breaking up parties at 7am on Sunday mornings on the beach.
    They are scum of scum. They will take great pleasure cracking heads today because that’s how they get their kicks. They are the lowest of the low. I don’t know how many of these scum are Catalan but they certainly have a fascist mentality.
    Catalan people are very proud and very honest people. They have no affiliation and trust with Madrid and Spain. It goes back to the civil war and Franco’s hatred for the region. Just as Brother Barnabas pointed out.
    This will not end well for Spain. Barcelona will continue civil disobedience and the filthy pigs with batons and suits will loose.
    ViVa Barcelona!
    Viva Catalunya!

    1. Brother Barnabas

      Bang on.

      Mossos d’Esquadra are particularly nasty – implanted by Madrid in case the local police stop following orders. Thugs in military uniform.

    2. Fed this now

      ALL Catalans are proud and honest people? I see the left have a new group to fetishise!!

      1. Brother Barnabas

        Local police are almost all Catalan. Mossos are never Catalan. Mossos is the regime’s heavy presence on the ground.

  6. rotide

    It’s incredible that spain has taken this action. The referendum was ruled unconsitutional so the result would be irrelevant apart from showing actual support for cessation. That support was by no means overwhelmingly certain before this week considering how recent election voting trends went. All this action does is give more support for the leave camp.

    With regards to the question of independance itself, there certainly seems to be grounds for it and economically Catalonia is in a decent state but is there acceptance into the EU a formality? It certainly wasn’t for Scotland post-brexit. If they don’t go straight into the EU things get a lot harder for a tiny new state.

      1. petey pannekoek

        “if the hard left hates the idea of nations… why support the set up of a new one, I wonder”

        see my comment just below to know what the “hard left” thinks.

  7. Sheik Yahbouti

    How tiny? There are 7.5 million Catalans. More than us and the Estonians for instance. Let’s not forget Luxembourg and the like.

  8. Bonkers

    They are some pretty disgusting scenes. It takes a special kind of sillybotty to strike people with a baton and drag people by their hair when all they are doing is protesting peacefully. This wont end well for Madrid, these images will galvanise the Cataluyans


    Cuda been us, thank god we voted ‘correctly’ for the Lisbon treaty second time round so.

  10. martco

    wonder how La Liga would work out if they succeed?
    or the CL? surely thinking there must be a uefa rule that a country would have to have a minimum amount of teams in a national league…tis just themselves & Espanyol afaik, no?

      1. martco

        worth a read book on whole Madrid v Barcelona rivalry…”Fear & Loathing” by Sid Lowe…not your usual looks at it via politics & history angle..was one of those couldn’t put it down read from start to end in one go (for me anyway excellent read)

    1. rotide

      Why would they leave La Liga? Would make no sense.

      If Red Bull can play in the Bundesliga, then Barca and Espanyol will be grand to stay in La Liga.

      1. martco

        you mean how redbull bull managed get both Leipzig and Salzberg into the CL by uefa bending their own rules?

        Article 5 of UEFA’s rules and regulations for the 2016-17 Champions League season, entitled “integrity of the competition,” states that “no individual or legal entity may have control or influence over more than one club participating in a UEFA club competition.”

        Very true I’d say uefa would do whatever will line their pock€ts

        1. Brother Barnabas

          yeah, UEFA would do whatever it took to keep Barca

          way too lucrative when it comes to selling TV rights around the world

  11. Ben Redmond

    Should the Gaeltacht have a right to hold a referendum on neamhspleáchas na gaeltachta and establish its own Poblacht? I betcha the Dublin government would re-open two dozen garda stations to prevent a referendum.

    1. Brother Barnabas

      It wouldn’t be an economically viable state, so it wouldn’t make sense. Catalunya would be an economically viable state.

      1. Rob_G

        “Catalunya would be an economically viable state.”

        – as things stand, yes. Might be a different kettle of fish if Spain prevented an independent Catalonia from joining the EU, or refused to allow Catalonia-bound planes through its airspace, etc.

  12. Eoin

    Ah police brutality. Will the powers that be ever learn that this approach ALWAYS backfires. Viva Catalonia!!

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