46 thoughts on “Beating Denmark

  1. dav

    but, but leo the lion told us we should expect homelessness as the norm and, if he has his way, a lot more of it to come!

      1. Owen C

        nothing to do with population. Its the social democrat political model, aspirations for Irish economy to become more Scandinavian-like etc. All laudable aspirations but foolish to imply they’re the direct peer group.

        If it was population being used then Portugal, Slovakia, Switzerland, Austria, Greece and Belgium would be just as suitable for inclusion and would give far better diversity of comparability.

        1. Ban the Poo. Ooh-er!

          Away you go Owen_C nothing to stop you producing that graph and adding to the available comparative dataset

        2. Listrade

          Ireland 4.7 million

          Portugal = 10 million
          Belgium = 11 million
          Greece = 11 million
          Austria = 8.7 million
          Slovakia = 5.5 million

          Denmark = 5.7 million
          Finland = 5.5 million
          Norway = 5.3 million

          You sure population has nothing to do with it? 4 out of the 5 “more suitable” comparisons you suggest far exceed Ireland population. A laudable attempt though.

          1. Owen C

            Does population size have a direct correlation with what the relative level of homelessness should be? That would be an epically amazing study.

          2. Listrade

            No, but the main report under discussion (from OECD) uses population to give a level of homelessness.

            It is the OECD report that Leo used when saying that Ireland compares favourably on an international basis. It’s reasonable to look at similar sized countries to give as close a “like-for-like” as possible.

            Also, the OECD report has Denmark as having the highest level of homelessness in EU and Finland is one of the best. Both therefore good comparisons for where Ireland sits.

          3. anne

            There’s really no other meaningful comparative analysis than measuring it as a percent of population.. & comparing similar populations.

            We’d probably beat all nations if the rate of percentage increase in homeless was compared over the last few years. i.e what percentage has homelessness increased in the last 5 years, 300%/400%? Has any other country had this rate of increase? Probably not.. I don’t ever recall the figures being in the thousands before..so I’d say 400% increase could be an underestimate.

          4. Owen C

            OECD report has New Zealand much higher than us. Of all the countries in the OECD, New Zealand has the most comparable population (4.71m vs 4.76m). Amazing that it wasn’t used as a comparison, eh?

    1. Cian

      To make us look bad.

      And bad we are – the huge increases in homelessness over the last few years needs to be addressed. [solution: we need to build more homes in Dublin]

      But this is a terrible graph – it has huge holes with missing data. It doesn’t say where the data came from, or what type of ‘homeless’ it shows.

      1. Ban the Poo. Ooh-er!

        Ever the contrarian

        Why don’t you go on Focus Ireland and research it instead of talking out of your hoop?

        1. Cian

          I accept the contrarian comment;

          But I try to ensure that my posts here are either expressed as a personal opinion (and can be ignored as such) OR when I include facts and figures that I add a reference to where the numbers came from.

          If anybody posts unattributed figures they are, in my opinion, suspect.

          I also try to avoid snide remarks.

          1. Cian

            “If anybody posts unattributed figures they are, in my opinion, suspect.” – I mean that the figures are suspect – not the posters. :-)

          2. Ban the Poo. Ooh-er!

            You avoid snide remarks you say? You just rubbished the information presented without making even the slightest effort to investigate the source. I don’t buy it.

          3. Cian

            If you go to https://www.focusireland.ie/resource-hub/latest-figures-homelessness-ireland/ you can see they have pretty graphs and underneath they link to their data sources. This is how data should be presented.

            This graph at the top of this post was published on their facebook page without any sources.

            The former graph are valid – and can be discussed.
            The latter.. well it’s equivalent to me saying: “67% of the ‘homeless’ are jobless chancers begging on the street and really have a nice warm home to go to at night.”

            or to put it another way

            What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

          4. anne

            Dismissed huh.. have you found contradictory evidence that we rank lower in homelessness than those countries listed?

            Have you tried looking for the source before dismissing it?

            This isn’t an academic forum. Not referencing something isn’t compatable to you making something up.

            5 million people approx in all the countries in the chart, & we have 3 times the amount of homelessness.. when did this become acceptable?

          5. Cian

            1. I haven’t looked for contradictory evidence.
            2. yes, I tried to find their original, and found (on Focus Ireland facebook page) the same unattributed image,
            3. you’re correct, it’s not an academic forum. But if you don’t look out for ‘fake news’ you end up accept my 67% statistic above.
            4. you have accepted, and are regurgitating, the unattributed stats above as if they are true. …when did that become acceptable?

        1. Cian

          That linked post was referring to data with a verifiable source [OEDC] – and it was comparing
          Denmark 2013 @ 0.10% vs Ireland 2015 @0.08%.
          which made is look good! :-)

          If you read the remainder of that thread: that PDF source was subsequently analysed and it was pointed out that they were counting ‘homeless’ in different ways – and a simple comparison was not valid. which made us look, um, unknown because they weren’t comparing like-with-like.
          This was all possible because the source data was included.

          If someone had taken that OECD data and drawn a pretty graph (showing Ireland in a good light) and not linking to data – I would dismiss it too.

          1. Listrade

            I know, I replied to it, pointing out those things. But you didn’t point out those things when you made the comparison and you didn’t comment back on your comparison when those issue were pointed out.

            You made the comparison to make Ireland look good or at least demonstrate Leo was being “factual” even though the data didn’t support that comparison. I agree it’s bad form to present data without a source for it to be discussed and debated, but its also bad form to present data to support an argument when the data goes out of its way to say that conclusion cannot be drawn.

          2. Cian

            Listrade, you are correct – I didn’t acknowledge that the OECD data that Milton linked to was inconsistent with my Denmark remark (and indeed Leo’s statement).

            So we are back to X made a statement without producing evidence to back it up.

            Leo’s statement that “[Ireland has]”one of the lowest levels of homelessness” needs evidence – or it can be dismissed.
            Focus Ireland’s chart above, needs evidence – or it can be dismissed too.

      2. Nuala MC Namara

        Tut tut ,I wouldn’t dismiss expert research from Trinity College ,Dub :”Homelessness and Housing in Ireland and Norway (and Finland and Denmark)by Eoin O Sullivan School of Social Work and Social Policy,Trinity College!

    2. Owen C

      What is the problem with comparing homeless numbers with Norway, a country with a $1 trillion sovereign wealth fund and whose inclement climate perhaps makes the issue of actual homelessness somewhat more acute in its consideration?

      1. anne

        Where’d they get all that mula from? They didn’t hand over their seas or oil was it? We’re not a poor nation in any event & can afford to build social housing..if the will was there.

        1. Owen C

          do we have a trillion dollars of oil sitting offshore? I must have missed that discovery. I did read about all the losses Shell made trying to find some, but you may have more up to date information than me.

          We can afford to build social housing today. Three years ago we couldn’t. And social housing doesn’t just arrive overnight. The point remains however that a country that has been rich and getting richer for the last decade is not the most useful comparison for homelessness statistics.

          1. Ann Gularvelo-City

            We can afford it today you say? No. silly. We don’t want to pay more for these hoes. Less. You prefer we shoot the poor, right? I agree with you. Si shoot the peegs.

      1. ReproBertie

        Ah it would almost make you nostalgic for the days when FF gave accurate, clear and concise answers to all questions. Then FG came along and invented spin and everything changed.

        1. Cian

          Oh yeah and you’re just sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don’t know how people who engage in that don’t commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something!

          1. ReproBertie

            You’ll find Cian’s paraphrasing Bertie “níl mé muinteoir” Ahern, the undisputed master of the straight answer.

  2. Milton Freidman

    In fairness, were any of these countries involved in a bailout, where all the main banks went bankrupt? Kinda something that should be mentioned, no? The graph itself also is pretty poor, no reference marks, no sources, missing data…

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