Roaming Charge

at

Fianna Fáil Leader Micheál Martin on Merrion Street, Dublin 2 this morning

This morning.

Government Buildings.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said in the Dáil yesterday that he did not agree with the 5km or the 20km limit set out under the first two phases of the easing of the lockdown.

Mr Martin said:

”There is no remaining serious justification for the 5km limit. The public health concern is how people behave around others — not how far they are from their home.I don’t see a logic to it.”

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar replied:

“As a Government we won’t jump the gun by taking unnecessary risks with public health. Any announcement of whether we can go to Phase 2 or whether we can make any changes to the plan will have to wait until June 5th when we have more data available and the latest advice from NPHET.”

Wednesday: ‘Hold Firm’

Rollingnews

Meanwhile…



This morning.

Government ministers – forced to drive their own vehicles – arrive for a cabinet meeting in Government Buildings.

From top: Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe; Finian McGrath, Minister of State for Disability Issues and Regina Doherty, Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

Rollingnews

43 thoughts on “Roaming Charge

  1. John Smith

    It’s good to know that someone in the Dáil can recognise that preventing people from travelling is an unnecessary limitation.

    It was an emergency measure that should only be in place for the shortest time possible because of the difficulties and stresses it imposes. These are particularly acute in country areas, where, in some places, even the 20 km radius may not include anything, except a handful of houses, a few small roads and some fields and forestry with no public access!)

    Lifting this restriction would not be an ‘unnecessary risk’ – that is becoming an infuriating catch-phrase! It would be a recognition that it is not travel that spreads Coronavirus. As Micheál Martin says, it is how people behave around others that affects the spread of the virus.

    If I travel 100 km and never get out of the car or open the window to anyone else, I won’t catch Coronavirus or give it to anyone. If I drive 30 km to where my friends are and then sit with them, outdoors and socially-distanced, this is no different from doing the same thing within 2 km, 5 km or 20 km of home.

    At some point, surely, common-sense has to triumph.

    1. SOQ

      +1

      ”There is no remaining serious justification for the 5km limit. The public health concern is how people behave around others — not how far they are from their home.I don’t see a logic to it.”

      Much as it pains me to agree with Mr Micheál- he’s right. The original excuse was to prevent clusters but the thing has spread to every corner of the country anyways so- what is the point?

      1. george

        The 5km limits unnecessary journeys and so reduces social contacts. Reducing the number of social interactions is what has contained this virus. Removing the limit will increase social interaction and will make it easier for the virus to spread. We will see an increase in new virus cases towards the end of phase 2 if not before.

        1. Johnnythree

          Please tell me you are trolling? Please.
          Where is the proof that the virus was contained by lockdown? Where?
          And the increase in virus cases – why do you think that will happen. When?
          Honestly. I really hope you are joking and don’t really believe that because all of what you have said is untrue.

          1. George

            Nothing I wrote is true? Lets have a look:

            “The 5km limits unnecessary journeys” – TRUE, most people are sticking to the limit.

            “and so reduces social contacts” – TRUE, many people haven’t seen friends and family for months.

            “Reducing the number of social interactions is what has contained this virus.” – TRUE, there is evidence to suggest a relationship between the levels of lockdown and the spread of the virus https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-lockdown-effectiveness-graphics/

            “Removing the limit will increase social interaction and will make it easier for the virus to spread” – TRUE, the 20km limit covers most of Dublin for example, people will be able to visit people at home, without doubt there will be increased social contact. The virus spreads from the person to person. Lockdown reduce the spread (see link above).

            “We will see an increase in new virus cases towards the end of phase 2 if not before” – I believe this to be true and time will tell. I have said when.

            Now lets have a look at your post:

            “Please tell me you are trolling? Please” – insulting gibberish

            “Where is the proof that the virus was contained by lockdown?” – There is lots online and in medical records all over the globe.

            “Where?” – see above

            “And the increase in virus cases – why do you think that will happen.” – I already told you, towards the end of phase 2.

            “When?” – see above

            “Honestly. I really hope you are joking and don’t really believe that…” – more insulting nonsense

            “because all of what you have said is untrue.” – FALSE.

            You disagree with me buy all you’ve provided is one false statement (no evidence of course) that I am wrong.

          2. Orla

            Notice Johnny how George has pointed you to “lots of stuff online about it” ,”lots of experts”, “lots of science” etc argument while claiming you have no argument.
            The pro covid lockdown authoritarians are now left with semantics and “what if’s” for justifying their authoritative lockdown fetish ,fingers in the ears for Sweden and others with no lockdown, vague statements about land mass and population density etc, the Irish couldn’t do what the Swedes done because we are like creatures of night who howl at bright lights in the sky.

            George’s “experts” are “expertly selected” , your experts that point to the redundancy of covid lockdowns relative to actual lack of general deadly virulence outside those vulnerable like the elderly neglect of covid 19 and it’s non exponential curve are conspiracy theorists, Nobel prize winners can be conspiracy theorists , I will justify this by throwing in comments like dunning-kruger and appear extra intellectual.

            George enjoys the narrative around the “popular” view of covid 19, said popular view has no “science” to back up lockdowns anymore so they resort to virtue amplification and the old “well if didn’t have any lockdown” argument ,the good old “what if “,ignore the countries without a lockdown or travel restrictions that have less deaths than Ireland because they are all lying and not “popular” or good for virtue amplification.

            Ignore PCR testing and it’s redundancy outside a particularly context, ignore how many died while placed in an induced coma for ventilation quite possibly from the stress of that procedure.

  2. b

    5km has its reasons, it keeps people in their own locality

    if there is no 5k limit, everyone in Dublin will flock to the nicest spots for the weather = overcrowding

    1. Johnnythree

      But what if the risk of infection was much lower than we think? What if we were more resistant than we think?
      What about the economic play out of this – should one small part of the population close down the country and start and economic landslide?

      1. John Smith

        Yes, not everyone lives in Dublin. The small towns, villages and countryside are affected in completely different ways by the travel-distance limits. You don’t get overcrowding on the vast majority of the many, many beaches on the west coast, for example, nor on the mountain walks. You may not see another person there – in fact, that is frequently the case.

        In Dublin, a 5km radius circle contains most things that people want/need. In the country, you may need to travel 30, 40, 50 km for the same needs.

      2. SOQ

        Actually I suspect the risk of infection is way higher than we think and the truth on that will only out when there is a cheap and accurate anti-body test- but even that won’t give the full picture as some people will be naturally immune.

        Latest data suggests 70% who are + are asymptomatic and that is only those with live infections so it’s pretty reasonable to assume the thing is already everywhere at this stage- that is what viruses do.

        1. Cian

          Where are you getting the 70% from?
          If this is true, then there are 30% that are symptomatic… are we seeing this in the numbers? or are people hiding away?

          1. Cian

            I’m not sure how to interpret that.
            UK has had 38,000 deaths from 270,000 confirmed cases (14%).

            If 70% of the confirmed cases were asymptomatic then there is a 47% death rate if you display symptoms!!! ….
            or
            If the confirmed cases were only 30% of the real cases then there is a 4.2% death rate if you get infected!!! ….
            or
            there are lots of people (lots – as in 1 million people) that had COVID, had symptoms who haven’t been tested.

            and before you go down the deaths “of COVID” or “with COVID” – excess mortality article (from today) suggests that COVID deaths only account for half the excess mortality this year in the UK.
            https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/may/29/excess-deaths-uk-has-one-highest-levels-europe

          2. SOQ

            I am inclined to think the latter of your options myself- but sure we are only speculating really.

            I would think that fatalities are included in the 30% because if something has killed people then pretty safe to assume that they had symptoms- or is it? Stories are emerging of people with no symptoms just dying. Apart from that- there is no real correlation with anything other than what it says on the tin- 70% are asymptomatic.

            As for additional excess deaths- flu never went away and it is the largest seasonal killer every year. As I said before- it is entirely possible to have a bad flu AND this thing doing the rounds at the one time. It is only when all deaths are analysed rather than this CoVid-19 or not CoVid-19 mind-set, will the true picture be known.

          3. Cian

            As I said before- it is entirely possible to have a bad flu AND this thing doing the rounds at the one time.
            …based on zero evidence… ignoring the fact that flu season peaks in January… and this ‘mystery superflu’ didn’t show up until after COVID…and that all the social distancing, washing hands, lockdown would be as effective against a flu.

          4. SOQ

            Oh come on- flu season ends early april which coincidentally is the same time as this lovely started to wave au revoir.

    2. Johnnythree

      ‘b
      May 29, 2020 at 12:55 pm
      5km has its reasons, it keeps people in their own locality

      if there is no 5k limit, everyone in Dublin will flock to the nicest spots for the weather = overcrowding’

      Sure, I get that but why not just put Gardai on the nice spots so? ‘Sorry folks – just 100 people on the beach at a time’
      We can’t close businesses and impose a limit just because the guards can’t police where people go – it’s insane. Businesses going out of business because of a 5km limit and shut downs? And re-opening: So I can go to Woodies but not a coffee shop, or sit outside in the sun and have a plate of food or a pint handed to me?
      Thats illogical. Transmission is less from surfaces than thought and even then the risk is tiny. If we follow the Govts advice we can go shop in stores but not go to some stores. Pubs with outside areas could easily do a book a table scenario, limit numbers, entry by ticket, one drink per person….
      Where I live in my 5km the whole world is coming to walk in my rural area. I’d be ‘safer’ in my local town which is outside the 5km..
      This is the worst mistake a Govt has ever made in Ireland.

      1. George

        Because there’d be chaos at the beaches with traffic backed up and Gardai trying to manage crowds of annoyed and disappointed people and that’s just a beach where there is a clear single entrance.

        It would be completely impossible to police somewhere like Howth or Glendalough in that way.

        1. Johnnythree

          But thats not good enough reason to shut the country down. It’s not.
          They have to police it. You think they can’t close roads? Have police on bikes?
          They closed the WHOLE COUNTRY down for pretty much no evidence.
          Outside of Dublin there are hundreds of places where people can go? Mountains, parks, rivers. Maybe they should just lockdown Dublin?

      2. SOQ

        And- it is already well accepted that the risk of transmission in the outdoors, especially in good weather- is low. It is also well known that keeping people cooked up in their homes is bad for both their physical and mental health. Outside of beach / park scenarios, the only other thing open is supermarkets or DIY stores and I very much doubt if people are going to drive very far for those.

        This situation is stressful enough without guards acting like it is a police state and making people feel guilty because they went for a drive. It’s unnecessary and counter productive and is generating a level of cynicism among the general public which is doing serious harm to their community relations.

        1. Johnnythree

          I agree 100%. It can’t be continued the way it is.
          The Irish Times today – cheerleaders for lockdown and presenting as many one sided opinion pieces as they could find are now changing their tune with five articles criticising the lockdown. They have finally seen the light and want to be on the right side of the story. I don’t like M Martin one bit but I agree with him 100%.

      3. Cian

        Where I live in my 5km the whole world is coming to walk in my rural area. I’d be ‘safer’ in my local town which is outside the 5km..
        where do you live that the “whole world” lives within 5km of you… but your local town is more than 5km away?

        1. Johnnythree

          Yes, so many people living in a 5km range that never walked by the river or went to the forest. They can’t go to town either. More people for sure but not crazily so. I really think I’d hate to be back living in a city right now.

      4. Ricky

        Mind you we secured 1.9 billion from Europe
        Poland got29 billion

        Just enough to
        Pay the 2% across the board public sector wage increase

        Maybe VAT increases from the hospitality industry will cover the costs of all the businesses liquidations and statutory redundancy packages extracted from those who survive and able to absorb more company debt

    1. Ricky

      It was here before December

      I am sure I had it in December and they named it Japanese’s flu
      It was vicious but a week in bed
      Could not move

  3. Dr.Fart

    “I, a politician, cannot see the logic to health experts advise on a health issue” .. is becoming a very, veeeery tired feature of this pandemic. I’ve seen a number of panel discussions, with business leaders, politicians etc. and one health expert. The health expert will say “we do not know” and everyone else will have a big ol’ opinon.. based on NOTHING but their unshakable belief they must surely know about everything.

        1. A Person

          Good man Goo, a real response, not, never a response, just moan. Exactly like your party. Moan, and never make suggestions. Go on, I dare you, make some suggestions. What does your party say about the leaving cert (or is is A Levels in your country)? Make a suggested policy. Ah go on.

  4. Johnnythree

    IN REPLY TO :George
    May 29, 2020 at 1:17 pm
    Nothing I wrote is true? Lets have a look:

    “The 5km limits unnecessary journeys” – TRUE, most people are sticking to the limit. – I DISAGREE: Not really, not if you look at traffic data.

    “and so reduces social contacts” – TRUE, many people haven’t seen friends and family for months – I DISAGREE Does that make transmission go down? Theres very little community transmission anyway. Have you looked at the figures? The Growth by county? That’s if you believe that lockdown affects the rate of transmission. Which it does not by most reckoning now.

    “Reducing the number of social interactions is what has contained this virus.” – TRUE, there is evidence to suggest a relationship between the levels of lockdown and the spread of the virus https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-lockdown-effectiveness-graphics/
    I DISAGREE: There is more evidence to suggest the contrary. Look at the work of Michael Levitt in modelling the growth curve. Exponential growth and excess deaths are poorly understood by politicians.

    “Removing the limit will increase social interaction and will make it easier for the virus to spread” – TRUE, the 20km limit covers most of Dublin for example, people will be able to visit people at home, without doubt there will be increased social contact. The virus spreads from the person to person. Lockdown reduce the spread (see link above). I DISAGREE: The virus does spread from person to person but it is not problematic when the RO is under.5.THe thinking by a lot of scientists is that Sweden for example will come out of this better, despite having higher deaths. Immunity will play a big role going forward.

    “We will see an increase in new virus cases towards the end of phase 2 if not before” – I believe this to be true and time will tell. I have said when. I DISAGREE: No virus in history, SARS, MERS, Spanish flu has ever had a second wave. Look at the flu – it comes every winter but the strain always mutates hence he need for revaccination. There is no evidence to show Corona mutates or that there will be a second wave. Politicans want you to think that though because it will justify lockdown and the economic torture they inflicted.

    Now lets have a look at your post:

    “Please tell me you are trolling? Please” – insulting gibberish

    “Where is the proof that the virus was contained by lockdown?” – There is lots online and in medical records all over the globe. ****Where is it though? Where is the model or case study that confirms that? What medical records.

    “Where?” – see above – ****Where?

    “And the increase in virus cases – why do you think that will happen.” – I already told you, towards the end of phase 2. ******Unlikely

    “When?” – see above *****Unlikely

    “Honestly. I really hope you are joking and don’t really believe that…” – more insulting nonsense

    “because all of what you have said is untrue.” – FALSE.

    You disagree with me buy all you’ve provided is one false statement (no evidence of course) that I am wrong.
    *****In making a post of populist nonsense like you did you can expect pushback.

        1. Cian

          :-)
          you literally contradicted yourself in that post:

          there were three ‘waves’ but none as big as the first.

          the second wave […] was the deadliest wave, and the one which resulted in the closures of large gatherings’

  5. Orla

    Let’s cram everyone into a 5km zone and contain an infection with people within that zone already infected….

    We should have just chained everyone to different areas in their houses ,2 meters apart, maybe the tech guys could have “started up” some sort of human electric collar that proper stuns you to the floor before you breach the 2 meter rule,the chaining to one area might be too Pavlovian ,we need to consider human rights here folks, if you think electric shocks are excessive ,just imagine what it’s like DEAD……

    THIS WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE SPREAD OF THE VIRUS.

    Side note: I’m sincerely at a loss to imagining what it’s like dead? If your religiously inclined then death is the road to awe and amazement, atheist’s have been pumping the same spiel yet there is no imagination after death in their view, I think the trick is there is to imagine having no imagination to imagine while imagining that.

  6. Steph Pinker

    There’ll be some serious civil war navel battles kicking off this weekend if Micheál opts to show off his abs with his mates at a picnic.

      1. Steph Pinker

        SOQ, one doesn’t have to be gay to go topless! Notwithstanding – are you implying that Micheál and Varadkar aren’t BFFs? If so, it takes ‘navel gazing’ to a whole new level…

        1. SOQ

          I am implying that for the most part- FF do not have the gay vote- a bit like SF in South Armagh.

          1. Steph Pinker

            Yea, I know, I was kidding and being frivolous with my [self-percieved] puntastic abilities – ahh well, back to foaling mares and calving cows for me :(

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