118 thoughts on “Sunday’s Papers

  1. Lilly

    What is the point of a new lockdown? If it didn’t work first time, why repeat it. Tell people to take Vit D & zinc, protect the vulnerable, and let us get on with our lives.

    Reply
    1. Formerly Known As @ireland.com

      “Protect the vulnerable” – how? Many of the vulnerable are essential workers, many live with essential workers. Carers have to mix with many people. It is not a practical statement. Protect everyone. The best use of a lockdown is to do it while stopping new cases arriving on the island. That might be practically impossible, too.

      Reply
      1. SOQ

        Formerly- if you bothered to read The Great Barrington Declaration you would see that they have outlined exactly how to protect the vulnerable.

        Measures like regular testing of staff, no transfer of staff between homes, employment of people who already have anti bodies, food deliveries to those living at home etc.

        They don’t mention PPE or training in how to use it but I think that should be a given at this stage- likewise governmental monitoring to ensure everything is up to scratch.

        All of those measures should be in place every year of course- but they are not.

        Reply
        1. Formerly known as @ireland.com

          SOQ – not all the vulnerable live in aged care. What % of the population are vulnerable?

          @Younger Felix – I am in Melbourne. We are in a long lockdown, prob equivalnet to your Level . Averaging about 10 new cases per day, this week. That is down from over 700 per day. The poluation of Victoria is 6 million. The difference between here and Ireland is that we are forcing all international arrivals to quarantine for 14 days – mistakes can still happen and that is why we are locked down. Hopefully, we get the virus out of the community, just like in NZ. This lockdown is worth it. It will lead to a better outcome. Pretending it doesn’t exist, or only people I don’t know will get sick, is not a strategy.

          Reply
          1. SOQ

            The demographics this virus impacts upon are very specific, elderly and morbidly obese being the main groups. Protection of elderly at home is far easier than in nursing home settings.

            Community immunity is not a strategy- it is the recognition of a biological fact, and is going it happen one way or another.

            Even if Australia and New Zealand are successful in slowing it down- what happens next season?

    2. Kim The Cardassian

      The government will never admit it but the only reason I can see for a “short” lockdown is a chance for contact tracing teams to catch up.

      Of course hiring more staff would be a more obvious solution but since when does common sense matter anymore

      Reply
    3. Q Celt

      My preference would be B complex and garlic oil capsules. As I’m of Northern European heritage the chances of Vitamkn D deficiency are very low

      Reply
    4. Kingfisher

      It did work the first time. It’s when it was slackened off that cases started to rise.

      By the way, where’s De Monday Papers?

      Reply
  2. Gay Fawkes

    It’s to prevent our hospitals being overwhelmed with patients.

    If you or I are in a car crash and require an ICU we may not be given one because there may not be one.

    Do you think that would be a good outcome?

    Reply
    1. GiggidyGoo

      We have 28% less ICU beds in the system than 11 years ago.
      We have 50% less than the HSE itself said, 11 years ago, would be needed by 2020.
      579 ICU beds was their recommendation.

      Population, 2019, 4,904,000
      Population, 2009, 4,521,000

      That’s 380,000 more approx. of a population.

      If the discussion is going to be about availability ICU beds, then Fine Gael (as they were in government most of that 11 years) are the cause of the lack of them. They’re still in government.

      Holohan has been CMO all through that 11 year period. He is the one that tried to cover up the Cervical Cancer Screening scandal, and that he should write a report instead. Holohan told Harris the appropriate way forward was to “state that you have asked me to provide a report on the matter, including whether further actions or steps are required… I strongly advise that you do not commit to a review of CervicalCheck arising from the recent court case”, that to announce a review “could unnecessarily undermine public confidence in CervicalCheck”

      Reply
        1. GiggidyGoo

          Holohan was right? You’re saying that Holohan was right to try cover up the scandal? – and it was a scandal . Holohan knew of serious problems with Cervical Check in 2016 too.

          He then tried to frighten off Lorraine Walsh

          It’s scandalous that you’re still defending Holohan.

          Shameful Cian

          Reply
          1. Cian

            The scandal was that Cervical Check told the women’s doctors about the false-negatives results rather than the women directly.
            This was know pre-Scally.
            Scally didn’t uncover anything else.

          2. V AKA Frilly Keane

            A management decision in the department not to inform Women as soon as it was known their smear results were incorrect – or at the very least, not reliable, is a cover up
            As well as medical negligence
            Since prompt retests/ screens, prompt accurate results, and if required immediate treatment, didn’t automatically follow on from the moment the State’s Chief Medical Officer was aware.

            Muck around with that all you like C!an
            There was a decision not to disclose what they knew, when they knew it.
            That’s an attempt to keep it secret and out of the public eye. And that’s a cover up.
            But for you – since you’re a decrepit useful fool- I’ll water it down a bit – it was an attempted cover up.

          3. Cian

            Vanessa,
            Just for clarity. As soon as Cervical Check became aware of a false positive they immediately informed the woman’s oncologist – as that information was relevant for her ongoing medical care.

            CC (wrongly) left the decision to tell the woman of the false test up to the oncologist – most of whom didn’t tell the women.

          4. V AKA Frilly Keane

            Should have been a public disclosure by way of a press statement, asking that band of patients to immediately contact who took their smears and have them retaken asap. Followed by a full statement to the Dáil by then Minster for Health.
            They weren’t all in the care of oncologists btw. GPs mainly, and only referred to OBGYNs and or Oncologists when active cells were detected from the smears.

            I can speak from experience here. Including Pre Cervical Check scheme.

            They said nothing
            When every day counted the most

            They: are; and imo from start to the buck ending
            the Chief Medical Officer for the State, The Minister for Health, the Department of Health, Cervical Check, HIQA, HSE, the Attorney General’s office, Dept of Justice, the Department of Public Expenditure, and finally the clinicians respective governing bodies and representative groups

            It started with not saying it out loud from day one
            And From the mouth of the Chief Medical Officer for the State
            If not him / that office
            Who the f::: else are we to trust

            There was a few packets of contaminated rashers one time and within 36 hours every scrap of pork / ham produced in Ireland was removed from shelves and warehouses and stores
            48 hours the source was located and shut down
            64 hours charges were made
            (Give or take a few hours lads)

          5. Cian

            Vanessa,
            They all had oncologists. These women only had the earlier smears retested because subsequent tests were positive. They were all in treatment by the time the earlier smears were retested.

            It was part if the QA. If any test returns positive:
            1. Inform the woman (and start trestment)
            2. Re-test earlier smears. This is done from a learning perspective- if we look at a 4year old smear are there any indications that can be used to catch it sooner.
            Unfortunately, in the 221 cases, they realised on rereading that they should have been flagged and those women could have started treatment years earlier.

          6. V AKA Frilly Keane

            Star performance there C!an
            Not a hair out of place
            You didn’t skip a beat with that turnaround

            The lads back in the frapists unit must be delighted with you

            And on a Sunday n’ all
            That you have the nerve and neck
            Even the stomach to clean up after all that
            That’s the kinda gall that gets you a Special Advisor gig

            Defending the indefensible
            Championship level

            They said nothing
            When every day counted the most

        1. GiggidyGoo

          What does the government base their decisions on? Well, currently they’re basing them on Holohan’s recommendations. Nothing to suggest that they did anything different in 2009.

          Reply
          1. GiggidyGoo

            In an ideal world maybe. But if you’re saying that Harris was qualified to make any decision about the healthcare system, he wasn’t. Policy decisions are taken after consultation with the likes of the HSE for instance. It is the input of the likes of them that forms the policy. A Minister who isn’t qualified, in this case both medically and financially, delivers what he is told to deliver as he has no way to know, personally, if what he is being told is fully correct or not.

            This is borne out in Leaders Questions regularly, when the Ministers cannot answer questions that he should be able to answer, but have to go to the likes of Holohan to get the answers.

          2. V AKA Frilly Keane

            The Health Policy of this Government, the Acting Government, the previous Government + Confidence & Supply, and the three before that
            Which included FG, FF, Labour, Greens and PDs + a handful of Indos here and there has been the same
            It has remained unchanged in over 20 years
            And that is to privatise as much of it as possible

            Hence the current angst with the NPHET team, Paul Reid and Stephen Donnelly over not tidying up the extension to the Private Hospital Groups emergency Covid Deal.

            The HSE have managed 16 extra ICU beds in 9 months
            Eff all new recruits beyond 3 & 6 month contracts for testing

            Goosed now until they stump up for Larry and the other fella

            Not just a Banana Republic
            We’re the fruit fly ridden beyond ripe squishy gawky spotty Banana Republic

            Short circuit the entire State apparatus
            More like
            And start all over

  3. f_lawless

    A few weeks ago UK epidemiologist, Carl Heneghan, was scathing of the UK government when they began using the term “circuit break” calling it a “nonsensical term”.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8751389/Oxford-scientists-circuit-break-need-cycle-bad-data-bad-science.html

    Quote:
    ‘Now we look set to repeat the pattern of what happened six months ago when they first panicked the country into shutting down, except that this time it has been given a fancy title – operation ‘circuit break’.

    Whatever the name, it may be a grave error with terrible consequences for the health of the British people and for the health of the country. How can we possibly be making the same mistake – again?

    Why is it that the Government is once again in the grip of doom-mongering scientific modellers who specialise in causing panic and little else?

    This nonsensical term ‘circuit breaker’ is not the only aspect of the Government’s rhetoric that needs closer scrutiny…

    ..Making comparisons between countries using different national data with different definitions is no more useful than trying to compare apples and pears. It is not good science. The fog of pandemic chaos has even engulfed the most basic and best-understood of all outcomes: death.

    Even now, we cannot be sure what we are dealing with.

    Are we looking at deaths by Covid? Deaths with Covid?
    Or even deaths post-Covid? ‘

    Meanwhile, to quote Varadkar on the Sunday Independent front cover above:

    “(The circuit break) may well be needed at some point. No other country in Europe has tried this. It would be an experiment but it could work. In Israel it seems to be producing results”.

    There you have it. The lunatics have taken over the asylum

    Reply
    1. SOQ

      And who coined the phrase “circuit break”? One Mr Neil Ferguson- the same gentleman who’s predictions were out by a factor of 12- yes, he is still around.

      Anyways Ivor Cummins is back again- he starts and finishes with WHO CoVid-19 special envoy David Nabarro’s statement- that they do not advocate lockdown as the primary means of control.

      Good man Ivor.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJq8MBgYJ4Q

      Reply
      1. benblack

        I think the actual quote is, “‘Circuit Breaker’ seems to be a phrase coined by Prof Neil Ferguson.”

        ‘Seems’ – but hey, what do I know. Just think it’s strange Leo used it too.

        Reply
    2. Formerly known as @ireland.com

      @F_lawless – I think I can agree with you that whatever Bozo decides to do, it is unlikely to be the correct action.

      Reply
        1. benblack

          Time will surely tell what is actually around the corner.

          Just finished watching a video that SOQ posted – a few posts up ^^ – should have a look, if you have the time or if you actually care either way.

          Unique terms and phrases like this do not spontaneously appear in the vocabulary of politicians from different countries at the same time, in relation to the same matter unless they are following the same plan. And it’s not the WHO’s or NPHET’s terminology.

          And, major operations always have codenames. I’d love to say Military Operations – but I’d be shot!

          Reply
  4. Jaded Joe

    In North Korea they’ve had only ONE lockdown so far, and NO cases of Corona. (according to reports)

    *************************

    “I know what you’re thinking Dougal…”
    “We need to become more like North Korea Ted”
    “Well no actually. That’s where you’re wrong Dougal”
    “Oh right”

    Reply
  5. Karen Oviris

    You don’t have to respect your government. You can always get another one.

    BUT YOU MUST RESPECT THE VIRUS!
    IT MIGHT BE YOUR LAST.

    Reply
    1. E'Matty

      Yeah, possibly if you’re over 65 with Chronic Heart Disease, a chronic neurological disease, a chronic respiratory disease, cancer or diabetes. For most, it’s pretty harmless. According to the latest WHO stats, it has a fatality rate of just 0.13%.

      Reply
      1. Not Himselfe

        So if we go for herd immunity that’s over 10 million of the earth’s population. 2 whole Irelands. Sure what’s 10 million souls? As long as we can go to the pub.

        Reply
          1. Not Himselfe

            My comment was tongue in cheek but you just go ahead and twist it whatever way you want as per usual. The fact remains, 0.13% means 10 million people will die and you seem to be happy enough with that.

          2. Not Himselfe

            Thankfully the people making decisions aren’t using ‘feelings’ like you to make assumptions

        1. Micko

          “10 million souls”

          You know 55 million die every single year regardless of what we do about this right?

          How long are you willing to stay in lockdown? 2 years? 4 years?

          The quickest we’ve ever developed a working vaccine is 5 years.

          And, now we have more people online asking for tougher restrictions and for the current ones to be enforced even more. We have the Guards literally taking the pizz curtailing traffic and peoples lives for no reason.

          The ease in which people gave up their rights to a disease with a tiny mortality rate is quite simply pathetic.

          I get that we were all scared back in March, but now it’s just pathetic.

          And now it’s all “ long covid” this and that. RTÉ dragging out a poor young fellah on The Late Late to talk about his panic attacks in school.
          How the effin hell can you have long term effects from a disease that’s 8 months old????

          The whole thing is laughable.

          Reply
          1. Lilly

            ‘How the effin hell can you have long term effects from a disease that’s 8 months old????’

            If you’re still suffering ill effects 6 months later – as many are – it’s reasonable to classify it as ‘long covid’.

          2. sidhe

            your comments on covid are refreshingly balanced Lilly

            too much extremism online. you seem a rare fount of good sense.

          3. Micko

            Many are? Really? Seem to anecdotal most of em.

            Anyway, you mean like what can happen with any virus?

            My friends 16 year old daughter was off school for nearly a year after she contracted two “regular” viruses in a row. Messed up her body, she had lethargy, brain fog etc. Post viral fatigue is well documented.

            https://www.nbt.nhs.uk/our-services/a-z-services/bristol-chronic-fatigue-syndromeme-service/post-viral-fatigue-a-guide

            But of course with Covid it’s “Long Covid”. Gimme a break

          4. Not Himselfe

            Right so it’ll be 65 million this year then if we open up. A 20% increase in deaths worldwide. I can’t believe my eyes and ears with people so nonchalantly dismissing other peoples deaths as a necessary evil.

          5. Micko

            @Not Himselfe

            Well not really, it doesn’t necessarily equate to 65 million.

            If you look at the CSO figures for this year so far you’ll see that deaths are pretty much around the same in Ireland as they were for the last few years. Obviously March and April are up on normal by a good bit.

            But, some months in 2018 were actually way worse that any of the Covid months this year – but nobody batted an eyelid in the media… nobody.

            Covid has been killing people that were unfortunately going to go anyway – the median age is 82 for God’s sake with about a 1000 in nursing homes.

            Over 5.9 million children under 5 have died this year according to Unicef.
            https://www.worldometers.info/

            That’s kids under 5 – so you know it wasn’t Covid that killed em.
            Why do we care so much about Covid? We’re
            not nonchalant about that?

            Is it because it only affects us? Of course it is. ;-)

            It’s pathetic.

      2. Q Celt

        Obesity is also a big factor, plenty of obese people more so in working class neighbourhoods.

        No evidence of long term immunity from exposure, bit like the old HIV the Tcells aren’t learning it.

        Reply
      3. Formerly known as @ireland.com

        @E’Matty — How many hospitals, with ICU beds and staff, do you think we need to look after the sick?

        The virus is not just about the death toll, it is about long term effects on survivors and the capacity of the medical system to manage all the cases.

        Reply
        1. bisted

          …good luck with that request Formerly…I’ve been asking the pro-sickness brigade how many they would see as an acceptable number of deaths for their holy grail of herd immunity and what they would propose if the number went above this…

          Reply
          1. SOQ

            In the past week I was informed of two deaths. The first was a friend who’s cancer treatment was postponed for over four months and the second was another friend’s brother who committed suicide- both Covid-19 or lockdown related.

            So tell me Bisted- what is the acceptable level of cancer of suicide deaths? What is the acceptable number of children left without mothers or fathers?

            In this case there is a total of 3 under the age of 10- is that enough for you?

          2. Nigel

            Perhaps that question would be better adressed at people who failed or refused to follow relatively simple measures post-lockdown that were designed to keep the rate of infection down, such as, oh, I don’t know, wearing masks. Apparently such people don’t give a fukk if anyone else dies of covid, cancer or suicide.

          3. SOQ

            Yes lets just distil it down to masks and therefor pass the blame onto the little man eh? Middle class socialism 101.

            The people are already suffering and dying because of these insane lockdowns are just collateral damage then is it?

          4. SOQ

            You are the one thumping down Nigel- not me. If at this stage you honestly think that masks make a blind but of difference then you have not been paying attention to the science.

          5. Nigel

            Wearing masks is better than being in lockdown. You could easily set aside your own skepticism in the name being part of a community effort to reduce infection. Instead you decided your absolute certaintly trumps just doing our best with what we have for the good of everyone.

  6. GiggidyGoo

    Anyone would think Varadkar was Taoiseach. Blu Huey’s Independent has yet again his mug on the front page against the Covid story, as well as quotes from hm.

    And what does the actual Taoiseach do these days? Tries to be smart with independent TDs who organize treatments for their constituents that our own Health Service won’t.

    The idiot boy, Ryan as usual tagging along like that snot that takes an age to blow out.

    What a reflection of FFGr

    Reply
  7. Charger Salmons

    Stone the crows.
    Arsene Wenger – ‘ the man who transformed football ‘
    That’s almost as comical as pleading to be the 33rd team at the World Cup …

    COYBIG

    Reply
      1. Charger Salmons

        That’s right Brother.
        Wenger pioneered new dietary regimes for players including eating pasta before a game.
        Although in Ireland’s case it’s more rigor mortis than rigatoni …

        #soccerbantz

        Reply
        1. Brother Barnabas

          curiously enough, it was the english players that caused Wenger to despair- Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Ray Parlour… “with the english boys, it’s not so much a lack of footballing intelligence…its a lack of intelligence full stop. the scots, the irish, the welsh… they get it. but the english lads just dont”

          Reply
          1. Charger Salmons

            I can’t help but feel a sense of trepidation coming out of Wem-ber-lee at the moment.
            We throwing on untested youngsters against a tricky Belgian side who could easily expose our weakness on the left flank.
            Sir Harry of Kane is on the bench too.Must be carrying a knock.
            Hard luck to the Irish though – thought they were okay against the Welsh but three games without scoring a goal must be an obvious worry.
            Still searching for that elusive first Nations League win as well.
            Anyway, creamy pints it is.

    1. GiggidyGoo

      Sure Have Inferiority Troubles meter reading 6.9 already.
      Walter Mitty delivers his first pronouncement of the day from Castle Bedsit, as his alter ego Alexander/Alexandria heats up a treat – Spaghetti Hoops – for Sunday. And served in bed too by Tessie Lonika in her sexy off-grey toweling robe. How posh!
      A Mange-a-Twit

      Reply
    1. Q Celt

      Bit late to worry about the pretty animals, the planet has passed the tipping point only total ban on fossil fuel burning stands a chance, and that needs to happen in the 48 months, before the hydrated methane beneath the tundra and ice caps strarrs releasing.

      Reply
  8. GiggidyGoo

    There’s Nigel, three posts in a row with links in each.
    This from someone who refuses to look at links posted regarding other views on Covid.

    Reply
          1. GiggidyGoo

            I didn’t read them for your gratification. I read them to get all points of view.
            And your excuse for not reading people’s links is?

  9. Q Celt

    More trans ridiculous. Chap just misses out on making GB mens cycling team, few weeks later says he’s a lady, welcome to the GB women’s cycling team. No hormones no surgery, I’m a lady and Bob’s your uncle.
    On the postivie side, World Rugby have stated that biological men can’t play elite women’s rugby, hopefully samerule will apply at club level.
    It’s important to keep safe spaces and safe spare sports for genetic women (XX).

    Reply
        1. Clampers Outside

          You really are deluded beyond reason with your zealous embrace of TRA pseudo-scientific mysoginist ideology.

          Reply
  10. Eoin

    Where is all this ‘circuit breaker’ talk coming from? The UK government is using the same term. It’s not coming from the WHO. You just had the rep from the WHO on with Andrew Neil at The Spectator saying they DO NOT advocate lockdowns. They don’t advocate them because they don’t work and only cause harm. So now we have top experts and the WHO saying this is bad stuff. What is going on?

    Reply
      1. benblack

        It’s 49 minutes long but well worth it. The most comprehensive and compelling presentation I’ve seen detailing the logic behind the anti-lockdown argument.

        Can you imagine though, if the class action lawsuit is sucessful, Larry queuing up for compo for the meat factory closures.

        The comparison to VW’s defect device for cheating diesel emmissions to the PCR test is a pretty good one.

        Reply
  11. f_lawless

    https://twitter.com/fionamflanagan1/status/1314688167212089345

    Apparently, according to a FOI request, the HSE have stated that the majority of PCR tests are being run at 40-45 cycles.. As numerous experts such as Prof Carl Heneghan, have said, those cases which are taking that many cycles to produce a positive result, are identifying people who are not infectious.

    Based on that, it would be reasonable to conclude that the current threat to the health of the general public is being somewhat over-hyped. The media feed daily case counts through to the public without any context – no record of what the cycle threshold was for each new positive case is ever publicly provided The question again is, why are they doing this? It can’t be simply down to negligence.

    Reply
    1. SOQ

      When Michael McNamara asked Paul Reid how many cycles were involved in Irish tests he said he did not know. That the head of the HSE did not know how many cycles were involved is quite extraordinary.

      Anything over 30 is regarded as being non infectious yet they are all lumped in together.

      Reply
    1. f_lawless

      ‘Mr Donnelly said: “For amber and red counties, the default positions around Europe will be that you need to self isolate or restrict your movements.”

      He said the Government is looking at “what testing protocols can be put in place, so that the need to restrict your movements doesn’t happen”. ‘

      Translation: bit by bit we’ll be nudging the public towards opting in to “Digital Health Passports”, the new digital identity system which is a cornerstone of the “Great Reset”

      https://mises.org/wire/lockdowns-great-reset

      Reply
      1. benblack

        Another great read and ticks all the logical boxes with one omission – the suspension of public worship. The banning of publicly worshipping God is also a key element of the plan.

        You can take your filthy coin change from the shop assistant in the supermarket seven days a week, but you can’t receive Holy Communion from a priest on a Sunday.

        No matter your beliefs and grievances with regard to the Catholic Church, this is just so wrong on many levels, not least, basic logic.

        Reply

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