Neil McDonnell of ISME

This morning/afternoon.

The Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association (ISME) has joined calls for employers to be allowed ask if their employees are vaccinated.

On RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, ISME’s chief executive Neil McDonnell said:

“It is very hard to see how employers cannot ask a vaccination status either where it is not possible to maintain social distancing between employees or between workplace colleagues and the customer.

It’s very difficult to conclude how the employer would be doing anything other than acting irresponsibly if they did not know the vaccination status of the employee.

“We would be very disappointed if people were to use the word discrimination. It’s now incumbent on the Department of Enterprise to specify work where an employer should know the vaccination status of employees

However, The Data Protection Officer said this was…

“… likely to represent unnecessary and excessive data collection for which no clear legal basis exists”.

Doireann Ansbro, of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, (ICCL), said:

“In this country we have very strong rights, and people still have the right to make their own decision.

“And if all employers are allowed to ask for a vaccination status and make decisions based on that status including potentially not allowing people to come back to work or potentially firing people, you’re potentially talking about introducing a mandatory vaccination programme by the back door.

That potentially impacts the right to bodily integrity, the right not to be discriminated against, and of course the right to privacy.

“If you have employers making decisions on the basis of vaccination status, you are potentially talking about discrimination or segregation in workplaces.”

ISME: Employers want to know if workers are vaccinated (RTÉ)

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38 thoughts on “Ask And Tell

  1. John

    My employer has strict policies about coming on site for work.
    They specifically do not ask on vaccination status.
    What they do ask is that you get antigen tested (in the office) every two weeks, tests administered by a 3rd party provider. Individual results are not reported to the company, nor is a list of people who get tested. If you test positive you are expected to voluntarily disclose it and isolate until recovered and provide a list of close contacts on site.
    The testing requirement is dropped for fully vaccinated staff but you can continue to get tested if you wish.
    This is all based on staff self reporting, so is clearly open to someone to not comply. However I am pretty sure that I would be subjected to disciplinary action if it became known that I was not observing the onsite protocols.
    Businesses have an obligation to protect their business as well as their staff. They cant afford to be shut down because of an outbreak. I am not surprised to see this sort of request coming from ISME as it is clearly the easiest solution.

    1. SOQ

      Given that vaccinated people can still be infectious, why the differential? Surely the whole point of testing is to ascertain who is infectious?

      It makes zero sense.

        1. SOQ

          Not true- its now accepted that a vaccinated person may have just as high a viral load as unvaccinated. Even if they were likely to be less likely to be infectious- what is the cut off point? Half as likely, quarter as likely?

          1. Oro

            You’re identifying the failure of your own argument within your own comment and still disputing it. Infectiousness is a compound function of a number of aspects of a viral infection, relevant components isolated below in quotes, sources below that. All taking delta variant into their consideration.

            I know you’ll read all this, not reply, and the post the same waste of space comment tomorrow, it’s like brainwashing.

            “fully vaccinated people aged 18 to 64 have about a 49% lower risk of being infected compared with unvaccinated people”

            “fully vaccinated people were about half as likely to test positive after coming into contact with someone who had Covid (3.84%, down from 7.23%)”

            “fully vaccinated people are likely infectious for less time than unvaccinated people.”

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/delta-variant-renders-herd-immunity-from-covid-mythical

            https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

          2. SOQ

            Yes well, given the data coming our of Israel I expect the CDC to revise in due course- and not for the first time.

            There is two things being mixed up here- how likely someone is to become infected and how infectious an infected person actually is. Infectiousness is directly related to viral load and as I said, vaccinated can be just as high.

            Where did my last response disappear to? What is an acceptable level of risk of an vaccinated person infecting someone else- is it 50% or 25% or?

          3. Oro

            You can’t deal in ‘can be’ when talking about statistics for a population sorry. You’re relying on “can be” an individual case there in order to confuse the real terms of what we’re discussing. This is not an acceptable way to discuss this, you’re dealing in extremes.

            Your typical or average unvaccinated person (relevant metric) IS more likely to become infected, IS more likely to be infectious and WILL be infectious for a longer period of time.

            Your average or typical unvaccinated person IS therefore many times more likely to pass on the virus therefore making them a greater danger to society.

            Those are the facts. Do you acknowledge this Y/N?

          4. SOQ

            No- because risk is not measured like that. “can be” works both ways.

            What happened to when pharma claimed 95%+ efficacy- like last month?

          5. Oro

            Risk is measured like that, the average and allows for a certain deviation from that. You’re dealing in extremes. Sorry it’s not the same thing. You’re totally incorrect on this one (and most ones).

          6. andrew

            @Oro

            I commend your contribution to this thread (and many others). And I commend and admire your patience.

            I tried desperately to remain polite and respectful but failed.

          7. Papi

            It’s basically the same three eejits, over and over and over again.
            SoqMickoMatty.
            Give it time, they’ll lick the wrong rat soon or literally get sucked into Youtube videos.

        2. E'Matty

          @Oro, your comments completely ignore SOQ’s perfectly valid point. If the purpose is to prevent the spread of the disease and the vaccinated clearly can still transmit the virus, albeit allegedly less likely to contract the virus, why are the vaccinated not also subject to testing regimes just like the unvaccinate? Your logic that they are less likely to be transmitting the virus doesn’t hold given they still do transmit the virus and therefore still do pose a risk. It is therefore a matter of degrees and the difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated simply doesn’t justify not testing the vaccinated. The reason they are not testing the vaccinated close contacts unless they have symptoms (unlike the unvaccinated asymptomatic close contacts) is because if they did it would show they are still contracting (and therefore potentially transmitting) the virus. It is this faire to test vaccinated close contacts whilst continuing to test unvaccinated close contacts that is resulting in much of the distorted figures showing 80% of new cases are unvaccinated. We don’t know the full figure of vaccinated cases because they are not testing them to the same extent. It doesn’t suit the narrative so they act like vaccinated people are essentially immune, unless they start displaying symptoms. It’s complete nonsense and not based in science. This Covid narrative has taken on religious overtones and the faithful like yourself simply believe whatever illogical nonsense your new High Priests feed you.

          1. Micko

            Still trying to “desperately to remain polite and respectful” there Andy eh?

            It’s an everyday struggle… stay strong.

            One day at a time.

          2. Papi

            Micko, yet again, castigates another commenter for the exact same behaviour he displays.
            See? Mick? This is why you’re a joke.

          3. Daniel

            E’Matty very well articulated point. Educated decisions by all (from individual to government level) cannot be made if we put our thumb on the scales of science, no matter the motivation for doing so. I still support the administering of the vaccines but we cant just stop looking for the transmission of the virus.

  2. freewheeling

    Interesting that representative associations here (ISME, RAI, VFI) seem to be the lockstep trojan horses pushing us towards mandatory vaccination. What’s in it for them if it’s “unnecessary and excessive data collection” for the businesses they represent? Sweetheart deals done?

    Again, none of this makes sense for the reason they are claiming it does – these vaccines do not prevent outbreaks.

    1. Mick

      Maybe “what’s in it for them” is that they can carry on their business in a more normal way and get back to making profits. Not everything is a conspiracy.

  3. kerryview

    Who has the right to infect the general population with dangerous illnesses in a republic? Maybe it’s OK for the individual not to be vaccinated in the land Mé Féin.

    Mandatory (?) Vaccines your child will get, and you probably have already benefitted from them;

    At 2 months
    PCV (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine)
    MenB vaccine (meningococcal B vaccine)
    Rotavirus oral vaccine
    6-in-1 vaccine
    Diphtheria
    Tetanus
    Whooping cough (pertussis)
    Hib (Haemophilus influenzae b)
    Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis)
    Hepatitis B
    At 4 months
    6-in-1 vaccine
    MenB vaccine (meningococcal B vaccine)
    Rotavirus oral vaccine
    At 6 months
    6-in-1 vaccine
    PCV (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine)
    MenC vaccine (meningococcal C vaccine)
    At 12 months
    MMR (measles, mumps and rubella)
    MenB vaccine (meningococcal B vaccine)
    At 13 months
    Hib/MenC (Haemophilus influenzae b and meningococcal C combined vaccine)
    PCV (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine)
    The HSE’s National Immunisation Office has more information on your child’s vaccines and immunisation schedule.

    Flu vaccine
    Children aged 2 to 12 can now get the nasal flu vaccine for free.

    The flu vaccine will help protect your child against flu and reduce the spread of flu to others. For example their brothers and sisters, parents and grandparents.

    1. Micko

      And they are all excellent.

      I even paid out of my own pocket to have my daughter receive the Meningitis vaccine as it wasn’t;t covered for free when she was born. (I believe it is now.)

      But, these new Covid vaccines are under emergency use. So not for my child.

      Ta.

    2. goldenbrown

      respectfully kerryview
      every vaccine scenario is different
      I’ll decide
      whether or not I have my child jabbed for C19
      that decision will be based on the risk/benefit for HIM
      not me or you or Papa Reid and the state strategy this week
      I’ll keep an open mind but so far no dice
      whatsoever

    3. E'Matty

      Again, another poster who totally ignores the fact the vaccinated can still infect others. Are you living in a cave?

      “Who has the right to infect the general population with dangerous illnesses in a republic” – your beloved vaccinated are guilty of this too.

      Please tell us how long each of the vaccines you list was in development and trials before being administered to the public? The Covid vaccines were on the market in less than 10 months. What’s the next closest in time from your list? In addition, each vaccine listed is for an illness that affects children badly, unlike Covid. And before you parrot the media conditioned “But, what about Long Covid” line, there is no evidence yet that the vaccines have any impact on Long Covid.

  4. ce

    “The UK recorded 29,612 new cases of Covid-19 on Wednesday and 104 deaths within 28 days of a positive test for the virus, Reuters reports.

    That compares with 23,510 new cases and 146 deaths on Tuesday.”

    …’tis all going just grand, bit of flat 7-up and we’ll all be right as rain

      1. Micko

        Games of chance for 1 in 100k – odds of an 0-19 old getting in trouble. (found this online)

        Since dying is a very rare event, similar odds to one in 100,000 can be macabre.

        We can also think of probability-based games and chances:
        Winning the Lotto jackpot with 450 tickets: The probability of winning the Lotto jackpot with one ticket is about one in 45,000,000. With 450 tickets in hand, like you hailed from a maths textbook, the odds of the ultimate win are around one in 100,000.

        Guessing the last five digits of a phone number: There are five choices of ten digits. That means the chance is exactly one in 100,000.

        Tossing a fair coin and getting 17 heads in a row: For your first attempt, the probability is around one in 131,000. If you keep going, the odds of 17 consecutive heads rise. Illusionist Derren Brown explored this concept in the programme The System.

        Rolling six sixes and then an even number: On a fair die, there are six sides with equal chance. The probability of six sixes is one in 46,656. The chance of six sixes and an even number is one in 93,312.

        A Royal Flush with six redrawn hands: A Royal Flush is an Ace, King, Queen, Jack, and 10 from a deck of cards. With five cards, there are 2,598,960 combinations of cards. Four of these are Royal Flushes — one in each suit. That means the probability is one in 649,740. With six redrawn hands, the probability of a Royal Flush is around one in 108,000.

        One in 100,000 is a very small chance, which can be challenging to grasp.

  5. VaxNotVex

    Lots of companies including public bodies require u to undergo a medical before offering u a job.. surely asking voluntarily About vaccination status is a good risk management and health and safety procedure to carry out in a global pandemic!
    There are nine grounds of discrimination in law… None of them are related to health and or vaccination (one is disability…which is not the same)

    1. E'Matty

      Why is it good risk management? What do you think the employer finds out from knowing whether the person is vaccinated or not, given the vaccinated can be transmitters of the virus too? Please explain your logic. How does it make anyone safer to know the vaccination status of employees?

      1. andrew

        Lets the employer know whether the employee is capable of critical thinking or not – that’s worth something, is it not? But you, being evidently incapable of it, likely need this explained. And even then,… round and round we go. Hope you get well soon.

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