This afternoon.
Outside Leinster House, Kildare Street, Dublin
Hundreds of travellers and supporters calling for better recognition of travelle culture and improved conditions in traveller accomodation following the Carrickmines Halting Site Fire which killed ten people.
(Sam Boal/Rollingnews.ie)
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Okay I’ll be the first to say it – I’d have a lot more sympathy for travellers if it wasn’t for the thieving,violent people among them who give the minority a bad name.
OK, I’ll be the first to say you are about as intelligent as phlegm I coughed up this morning.
EVERYONE WINS!!!
Can I be the second to say the original commenter is an idiot. Thanks
Only if you join me in a game of traveler bingo:
Points for
– they aren’t a race
– 1 point per general traveler stereotype
– 1 point for every “I’m not a racist”
– anything about kids not going to school/attitudes to women/homosexuality
– anything about horses
Line! :(
Bonus points for ‘slash hook’.
Extra bonus points for a traveler boxing video
So go on then Don tell me why you believe them to be a race.
Points for –
Saying something intelligent.
Thanks Sido for the snide! Love your work!
See any other post where I have discussed race vs ethnicity. I’m not repeat myself.
I think her point was that ‘they’re not a race’ is not an excuse for saying they’re all a bunch of criminals. Anyway, the Irish govt officially recognise them as an ethnic minority, so by law, you’re all a bunch of racists. Happy Wednesday. :)
@Don the bar for work has been set so low Sido is writing Pulitzer Prize winning stuff!
In other words you don’t have an answer. You much prefer to spew your drivel and to hell with anyone who points it out to you.
Is the important thing here the message?
As in if you repeat your lies, often and aggressively enough they will somehow become the truth?
Meow!! Saucer of milk for Sido as he ratchets up the bitch!
Random moaning from commentator you didn’t reply to originally: that’s a clear board!
Sorry Don, I said I’m only giving points for saying something intelligent.
here you go moyest. travellers are not recognised in irish law as a distinct ethnic minority:
Social identity[edit]
Irish Travellers are recognised in British law as an ethnic group.[51] In Irish law, their legal status is that of a social group.[52] An ethnic group is defined as one whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic identity is also marked by the recognition from others of a group’s distinctiveness and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits.
The European Parliament Committee of Enquiry on Racism and Xenophobia found them to be among the most discriminated-against ethnic groups in Ireland[53] and yet their status remains insecure in the absence of widespread legal endorsement.[54] Travellers are often viewed by settled people in a negative light, perceived as insular, anti-social, ‘drop-outs’ and ‘misfits’,[55] or believed to be involved in criminal and mendicant behaviour, or settling illegally on land owned by others.[37][page needed][56][not in citation given]
Snide behaviour from BS too! I am doubly blessed on this fine day!
You have made genuine points. All of them are true. If there not true please enlightened me on all of them.
sad but unfortunately true from my experiences.
You aren’t the first to say that.
its only the jackeens who get all high and mighty when you speak badly of travellers .. it’s coz they didnt grow up in the countryside, where travellers have robbed your neighbours farming equipment, where they’ve broken into your house, where they thrash any place they park and leave it in an absolute wreck by the time they leave, and most of the surrounding area has been burgled by the time they move on, and they kick n scream when they get blamed and call accusers racists, when the evidence is clear as day. where they completely destroy any hotel or pub who shows the trust to let them in. ive only ever had negative experiences with them, in all my years on this planet im yet to have even a slightly good experience with them. and thats not down to me closin them off, ill give everyone a chance, and any time ive given them a chance theyve taken the first opportunity to do me over. anyone sayin otherwise has no experience with them. i see in one of the pics, they have a sign saying they’re irish citizens .. they refute that at every turn, they dont even have social security numbers, but they’ll drag it up when it suits them. i dont trust them a bit. and thats built from years of only seein them do awful stuff.
“ive only ever had negative experiences with them”
And your feelings are objective reality of course which means it’s totally acceptable for you to make racist statements in a public forum.
theyre not racist comments.. travellers are the same race as i am. you wouldnt have a clue, if you’d experienced what i have with them, and what everyone i know has experienced, you’d sit quietly on the matter. the difference is, i dont care about telling what i think of them, because its based on multiple experiences, with no positive experiences, not even one small one. and id bet if you were to try find someone who has had a positive experience with them, you’d fail, because they hate settled people. but you wouldnt know about that either, coz you have zero experience with them.
TRAVELER BINGO!!
“coz you have zero experience with them.”
Yep. If you don’t see it, it doesn’t exist. BS should post that cognitive bias thing again.
@Moyes ….eh?
Those two things no same same.
Sure they are. This chap thinks his personal feelings on who’s been breaking into houses near him means that it is a *fact* that travellers are generally criminal. He also thinks that because I disagree then I *must* not have experiences with travellers. He mistakes his personal feelings for objective reality like loads do here. I can’t exactly remember that post about cognitive biases but I’m pretty sure that was covered…or at least it should have been.
* twists and turns pursed lips awkwardly *
Dunno if I want to go down this route…. feck it….
I don’t think he was trying to be objective. I think he was trying to just give his experiences. Just because they’re all negative ones doesn’t mean they’re wrong. There’s no right or wrong, they’re experiences.
There are going to be people with only negative experiences. Calling them racist for voicing it is not going to help. It may even make matters worse.
You seem to be rather black and white about it yourself. It’s not a black and white situation…. it’s incredibly grey…. and everyone needs to be heard, even those with so many bad experiences they’ve admitted they’ve given up on travellers.
Well, I’m black and white about it because it’s a black and white situation and the chap really was trying to be objective. He’s not showing any tolerance for the notion that he’s wrong or that they’re just his own experiences. No, he is presenting them as proof for his position that they’re criminals. He even betrays himself elsewhere by admitting to specious reasoning. ‘Travellers move in and there’s loads of burglaries and when they leave they stop but I’m a bigot for pointing it out?’ So he actually doesn’t know, he’s just assuming.
It really is black and white. While it may be understandable that you might have negative feelings towards travellers if you lived by a particularly crappy group of them, they’re still just your feelings and you’re still wrong.
As for shouting racist, do you see me doing that to you? Surely you can work out why I take much different approach to you than I do to this fella.
its not one particular group that ive had bad experiences from .. theyve come from different groups of travellers whove come into a number of surrounding areas, and all have acted the same. and i know loads of people in other parts of the country whove had awful things done to them by travellers .. and as i said, if in amongst all those experiences, if i had one positive experience, then i wouldnt write them all off. because id know theyre not all the same, but i havent.. i havent seen them once do any good for anyone. when have you even ever read about them doin something remotely good? in all our years on this planet, has anyone ever read about travellers doing something in any way good for someone else?
Hear the high priest
I’m not a jackeen and grew up very near a halting site in a town with a large traveller population. Somehow I managed not to grow up an awful bigot like yourself. Its not jackeens who don’t like anti-traveller bigotry which amounts to racism. Its decent people with a sense of humanity and the intelligence to use a bit of empathy.
this jackeen has had plenty of experiences with travellers and, sorry to say, they’ve been 90% negative – the other 10% were just mildly negative
Yup. Same for me
No discrimination here. You seem to hate everyone in equal measure :-)
nope. just travellers. if i had at least one positive experience with them, i wouldnt judge them all the same. but i havent.
I’m a jackeen who grew up within a stones throw of 3 halting site. Our house was broken into twice. Non-traveller junkies both times (according to the gardai anyway). Its almost as if in Dublin everything isn’t automatically blamed on travellers.
Yep.
Trolls be trolling again
You sure do.
Now, you’re just trollin’ like a boss.
Someone has to.
Its almost as if in Dublin everything isn’t automatically blamed on travellers.
No, we also include drug addicts to mix it up a little.
that’s as maybe, but down the country you can shoot a traveller, go back in to your gaff, reload and then shoot him again.
Ape.
Speak out against their actions and voice your perception of them all you want – you may even have a few in agreement. But saying stuff like that rightfully costs you all credibility.
It’s the same, at the opposite end of the scale, as Don and Moyest doing their stick-my-tongue-out-and-wriggle-my-fingers-beside-my-head response that they resort to.
Hopefully no longer worth listening to by anybody.
“Hopefully no longer worth listening to by anybody”
Beautiful. Which one are you then?
Oh another mystery new person who knows all about me? I must be famous!
*sticks tongue out*
In fairness, that’s both of you down to a tee
Moan moan rotide
You know, you really can’t.
well you really shouldn’t but there is a legal precedent set in the frog ward case. this case then led to an overhaul in legislation protecting those in their homes from exercising reasonable defensive security.
This stuff happened in Dublin, you eejit.
I have no issue with travellers getting better accommodation…as long as they pay for it themselves.
Given the very little spent on travellers by the state and their marginalisation from major state services like education (I witnessed local traveller kids hounded from secondary school by the staff themselves while I went to school) and the fact all travellers at a minimum pay VAT and rent to a local authority if housed by them, they easily pay their way in state spending terms.
Note: Travellers do pay taxes but travellers are also often unemployed due to their marginalisation from education (not discounting cultural issues which never is missed by bigots) and of course unemployed people don’t pay income tax.
Should we turf out unemployed non-traveller families in homeless accommodation now because they pay less in taxes than someone in employment? If no your inconsistent, if yes you’re even worse of a bottomhole.
The vast vast majority of Travellers chose not to work. I work with the DSP and that is an absolute fact.
“Absolute fact” I didn’t realise they gave that kind of info to people who work the desks in post offices.
Work the desks in Post Offices? Department of Social Protection. Deal with them every single day.
so you’re able to verify that on infosys?
It costs to live in a house, apartment, even a hostel. No accomodation is free whether you’re working, or unemployed and it should be exactly the same for all
Ah jesus the two of em are off again.
Brigid Quilligan of Irish Traveller Movement made a really moving and stirring speech. I am so sick and tired of the bigotry that exists in this country and is express so casually both among ordinary people and inside institutions of state.
Once again this thread is a disgrace !
Travellers deserve racially appropriate housing !
If they had it then maybe the ethnically appropriated cabling that they were allegedly burning the plastic off would not have set fire to the refabs.
Disgraceful, you all need to take a long had look at yourself.
Hey Joan, they also have very expensive mobile phones!
Hardly. RTE would have reported that fact. Wouldn’t they?
So do I tbf.
It’s kind of irrelevant. A fire should not have caused that much damage, that fast, at that temperature in any accommodation deemed fit for animal occupation, let alone human. The fact that it was Local Authority housing, by a massive stretch of that term, means they could expect it not to turn into an inferno so rapidly. But it turns out it was a shed – and a deathtrap whether someone knocked over a candle or the electrics went boom.
(that’s @colin)
They all ready know a few DLRCC councillors have confirmed the fire report states the cause of fire was the burning of copper cables on the site.
They were holding back the report until post the funerals now they are stuck with a sensitive way to release the info to the general public and Ahjaysus, the cause is important, a big difference between an electrical fault and a fire started by residents intentionally
In what substantial way? Their deaths are less a tragedy? The accommodation was fit for human habitation if they died because A rather than B?
Ahjaysus, Yes it’s important no it does not change the fact that it is a tragedy Would their accommodation of burnt to the ground if they had not started the illegal fire to burn copper cable? The cause of the fire is a substantial issue even the most up to standard accommodation can be burnt to the ground in the right conditions or bye a determined arsonist.
If the fire was malicious and arson would the cause not be important?
Link….. ?
Clampers, got wind of the cause about 3/4 days after the tragic incident and have had multiple sources mention it, at this stage. Report will be in the public domain soon enough
A report was released yesterday saying no cause could be identified.
I’ve heard so many rumours that blame the people who were burned to death. No confirmation on any of them so far.
Snickers, I held off putting it anywhere until 3 separate sources had mentioned it was the suspected cause. I am not apportioning blame I don’t think any person on that site planned or intended to kill 10 people.
Obviously DLRCC and the gov have an interest in the cause as any negligence on their part could lead to severe implications on a number of fronts
I hope those that have spoken to me are wrong, I hope it is an obscure alternative cause
the family provided the cabin, not the local authority. the council provided the bay and the utilities.
Hooray for victim blaming.
So by your logic if you do something that cause something else you are not to blame ?
That wasn’t council housing. They provided utilities and the site itself. Council also spent a small fortune cleaning the place up (before the fire). While your at it you may want to look into the cause of the fire.
This is not an issue of housing but overcrowding.
Would they not just settle?
JAYYYYY SUSSSS , we all really do have to have a sit down and think about the kind of things we say online …
I was watching a piece on Channel 4 news last night about upcoming elections in Turkey , some of the Turkish attitudes towards the Kurd’s sounded very familiar …
To the people who have had bad experiences with individual travellers , think they are a lost cause, and don’t want to be anywhere near them, what do you think should actually be done to solve these so called intractable issues?
All conflicts no matter how minor or devastating have only been solved by straight talking and compromise.
I suggest the next government appoint a traveller to the seanad…
I find this thread incredibly depressing. Travellers will only have the same lives as the rest of the population when they are integrated fully into society. Only then will their children have the same educational and life opportunities. Their current status (3 times the national neonatal mortality rate and 8 times the incarceration rate) is as much due to misguided notions that a separate nomadic “culture” is feasible in modern Ireland as it is due to racist stereotyping and discrimination.
do you think they want to integrate into society? you know nothing about travellers. they have no interest in living in our society .. and i dont blame them for that.
Absolutely correct, integration into modern Ireland is the only long term solution.
Just out of curiostity, How do you suggest they be integrated? What more can governments do to integrate them? AFAIK there isn’t any legal barriers to them entering education or the workforce or buying property. Should they be forced into all these things?
Well said DannyC..
Ah stop now…. or at least make an effort to qualify statements.
I think an important point is being missed. In the middle photo there’s a girl holding a sign that says ‘Why did it take ten to die to hear us?’, a harsh but apt statement. The temptation to smile though when the newspaper photographer was asking them to pose was too much. The juxtaposition of the sentiment of the sign and the sentiment of the sign holder in that moment is….well, pointless to reference I guess but there you go, the internet.
Only at the very end of the report did RTE mention a statement from the council which claimed they had spent over €100,000 clearing rubbish and debris from the site that year.
They expect everything to be provided for them at the expense of the taxpayer, while they contribute nothing.
Start of that comment should read ‘After the tragedy RTE visited a site in Finglas. The residents claimed that Fingal council did nothing to help them.
and they’d be right. finglas is in DCC’s administrative area, not fingal’s
Don says
“anything about kids not going to school/attitudes to women/homosexuality”
Why are you giving them a pass on this issues?
Are you suggesting that homophobia is only bad if it comes from non-travellers?
I’ve never commented on a post about travellers before as it’s a bit of a sensitive topic with me, but also because I presume [and hope] most people haven’t had the same experiences my family have had with them for generations; therefore, I can’t expect them to understand what it’s like. Every day and night we expect them to pay a visit to our farm, and the longer we go without a visit from them the more apprehensive we are about the next one; this is the way it is where I live, and while we don’t like to live in fear because we like to have some semblance of control in our lives, the fact is, we can’t let our guard down at any time, day or night.
I could write a list of how we’ve been treated by travellers over the years and what items have been stolen [including pets], but items are replaceable; however, only someone who has experienced intimidation and threats by them can understand how it feels like to live with a daily fear of travellers driving on to your farm, or walking in to your house without permission.
Until the 1950s, previous generations of my family would give work to travelling tinkers, not just because they had a skill, but because they worked hard and they were appreciative of two meals during the day as well as their wages – but then they started to steal [chickens. tools, lambs], so we had to stop giving them work because they couldn’t be trusted.
I know that a few commenters here will accuse me of being racist towards them, and I also know that I’ll probably be subjected to the same abuse and vitriol as other commenters who’ve had the same experiences as generations of my family have had; nevertheless, I’ve relayed my experiences as someone who is subjected to regular visits from them, none of which have been pleasant, unfortunately.
Unfortunately no matter how powerful your words and the obvious anguish you feel writing them nothing you say will count for anything on this forum.
I have had a knife pressed against my throat by an upstanding member of the travelling community who wished to relieve me of the contents of my wallet in order to allow him to continue his day-long drinking spree.
The nearest guard was probably 30 miles away and even if I rang to request his assistance it would have been unlikely that he would have responded to the call that evening.
So I handed over the wallet and put the experience down to the reality of living in rural Ireland.
God forbid that I should have offended his rights as an oppressed minority by refusing to do so.
As I mentioned in the first post on this item I do know a handful of travellers in my village who are reasonably close to being law-abiding citizens but they really are a tiny minority,
I live in the Wild West of Ireland and should any of our local tinkers ever get beyond the significant security measures we have in place on our farm to deter them – and there have been a number of attempts to test them – I would have absolutely no hesitation in using the shotgun I keep in my bedroom.
We are on our own.
It’s not an uncommon view and hard to argue with; except that there are ‘settled’ thugs and ‘settled’ gangs roaming the motorways too.
The issue of security and Garda response with judicial consideration is separate to our dual-relationship with this ancient life style.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jul/21/gypsy-roma-traveller-police-officers-band-together-beat-prejudice
I’m a bogger, and there are plenty of horse traders, and their customers, around here. (Prime grazing for ponies it seems).
I don’t doubt any specific stories but you cannot doubt there are hard workers and decent people too.
I have a major problem with any group who refuses to engage in society, does not pay its way and has a high level of criminality (7 member of this family had to ask for release on bail to attend the funeral) and yet demands all the protections of society. And calls anyone who wants them to take accountablitity for their acitions a racist (while at the same time saying they are not a separate race). And for the record I include people who live off benefits and refuse to work in this category, if you don’t contribute or have any intention to contribute you should have no right to benefit
+1
what about those who can’t contribute – say people on a disability payment? do you also agree that women with young children be made to go and work in low paid jobs in order to disqualify them from receiving benefits? in fairness, there has to be a far more robust social system in place in order to allow your ‘philosophy’ to work.
also, if you cut benefit for someone who has never worked, you’re pretty much creating an environment where crime will flourish – not out of any anti-social tendency but out of necessity. you’re going to find you’ll affect a cohort of people who come from apalling home lives, have suffered through addictions, who are genuinely unable to cope with relationships or hold down employment, who may have learning difficulties or undiagnosed mental health issues. while i understand where you’re coming from, i would honestly hate to live in a society like the one you envisage.
Dude chill, I’m not outlining a manifesto for my revolution I am simply saying if you want the protections of society then you must try to take part in society or contribute in meaningful way. Obviously if someone cannot work for whatever reason then that’s fair enough. But there are plenty out there who have just decided not to work. I’m all for a compassionate society, but you also have to beware when someone is taking the p*ss
‘taking the p1ss’ is a bit hard to legislate for though vince. if you take someone who never finished school, ended up as a serial recidivist etc. they’d have no cultural capital in the same way you or i would. you’re pushing them into a world they will not succeed in, therefore it’s a rational choice to stay on welfare than to constantly fail in what we consider the ‘real’ world. unfortunately it takes a huge amount of resources to encourage normalcy and the real question isn’t ‘how do we stop them taking the p1ss’, it’s ‘is the money spent worth it’.
but you’ll probably find it’s those who have, and come from privilege are the ones who take the p1ss the most.