This morning.
Further to Irish Times columnist Fintan O’Toole’s categorisation of those opposed to the covid vaccine as ‘egoists, paranoiacs or fascists’…
…via Irish Times Letters:
Deep analysis of statistical data and ethical questions regarding vaccine mandates are not being addressed by mainstream media. This lack of good journalism, I believe, is forcing many questioning people to turn to alternative platforms for information. This is indeed a very dangerous situation as it is polarising two extreme positions.
Not everyone who asks legitimate questions is a conspiracy theorist.
People who have been injured by vaccinations deserve not to be isolated and judged. Those who have concerns are regularly deemed to be selfish and uncaring of the general good by others who occupy the moral high ground. Relationships and even families are being divided by this vacuum.
When will media cease to only echo the groupthink which seems to have emerged since March 2020? The constant catastrophic predictions, whipping up incredible levels of fear and anxiety, are in themselves very toxic – maybe even more harmful than Covid. I look forward to seeing a change in this situation.
Anna Condren, county Wicklow.
Meanwhile….
Earlier this year (April 7th), The Irish Times editorial view on Covid stated that the issue of Covid passports is “fraught with problems, including potential breaches of human rights, so any system must be carefully calibrated to balance individual rights – including the rights to privacy and bodily integrity – with society’s wish to reopen. That means, for example, not allowing vaccine certs to become a route to de facto mandatory vaccination.”
Less than a year later (December 22nd), the editorial stance of the liberal paper of record paper appears diametrically opposed to the initial view adopted.
Specifically, are we to take it that The Irish Times now supports vaccine certs as a route to de facto mandatory vaccination: “The need for measures to encourage vaccinations is more essential than ever – vaccine sceptics, of whatever persuasion, need to understand that there will be consequences as a result of non-vaccination, whether only denial of access to a concert or hospitality venue. Such restrictions are as much about driving the vaccination campaign as immediate safety at these venues”.
What a difference a year makes.
Colm O’Connor, Dublin
Previously: We Don;t Know Ourselves
The liberal paper of record that Breda O’Brien has a weekly column in
Yea and John Waters and Kevin Mybottom wrote for for years if you could call their hen droppings that
I welcome an array of viewpoints that don’t align with my own. So what if BO’B writes in the IT? If I were an Editor I’d happily whip up debate by presenting many viewpoints. I doubt people are so feeble minded to blithely accept any and all sorts of nonsense.
That said who are any of these opinion holders to receive a pay cheque for opining? Whiff of self aggrandissement and ego off most of them,
Likewise it’s not journalism when you’re fed news or press releases to rewrite “in your own words” from the comfort of your arse on the office chair.
‘Likewise it’s not journalism when you’re fed news or press releases to rewrite “in your own words” from the comfort of your arse on the office chair.’
Unfortunately that IS a lot of modern journalism, and you can blame journalists if you like, but they’re at the bottom of a system of driving up dividends through cost-cutting and reorganisation and staff layoffs that has driven down the sustainability of proper journalism even for outlets which aren’t directly suffering under those systems, which aren’t many anyway.
Yes, that’s pretty much the position now right across the spectrum which is to be bemoaned. It is the cause of much misinformation, lazy repetitious writing and the debasement of what should be a noble profession providing an essential service.
Unless some firebrand news outlet exists that is founded on the integrity of true journalistic principles then we are doomed to consume the swill that passes for news or reasonably rational opinion. I will always appreciate the provocative so long as it is well constructed and reasoned – in much the same way as a politician who does not speak from both sides of the mouth.
I’ve deleted my twitter account for many reasons – primarily because I have no self interest to promote. What could have been an opportunity to democratise access to and the availability of information has proven to be nothing more than a multitude of Greek choruses, cat-calling din and bluster merchants who mostly debase and devalue the principles that were once inherent to robust and worthy debate. At the end of the day twitter serves to promote its own interests and those of its shareholders. Rather like the analogy made by Michael Lewis in one of his books about the economic crash where he compared Germany to a bystander at a mudfight in the Reperbahn in medieval Hamburg – while not wanting to be in the plop, they do want to be near the plop.
The paper of Presbyterian Notes. And look what they did to that poor lad in Sandymount. Fascism, great baking or not.
ah the baking makes up for it
( Sandymount is because of a small conservative clique, guess where from that’s right the North, they don’t reflect the views of many brought up with a very different church down here and who are up in arms about the mess and vocally apposing the decision, maybe church members are boycotting service across Dublin in protest).
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/leading-presbyterian-prof-sam-mcconkey-condemns-church-s-threat-to-dismiss-dublin-minister-1.4761506
even everyone’s fav presbyterian/ virologist is giving out about it
Not sure about that Janet- there is quite a liberal side to some Presbyterians up north.
The Presbyterian Church owned a building in Belfast CC in which a vegetarian restaurant I was connected to was housed in the late eighties. Above it was the weirdest collection of community groups I have ever seen.
There was the Christians- no idea what type but they were along the old school Plymouth Brethren lines. A Schizophrenic support group, a transvestite outfit called Butterfly and a couple of DJ’s (now quiet famous- no names) who ran an afterhours illegal thing.
They all turned up to the Christmas dinner which was fine until the meal was over- and then it all kicked off.
The Christians insisted on saying prayers which pissed off the now well plastered tyrannies, who then started hurling abuse back at the Christians. Half the Schizophrenics would STFU while the other half wouldn’t speak. Meanwhile the ravers dropped a few yokes and ran around hugging everyone.
Fun times.
ha , good to hear
You have interesting friends
one should
A right Eton Mess.
you won’t find many at Eton
Try Edinburg
According to my hairstylist, Covid is having a devastating effect on people’s hair, causing it to fall out in clumps, become brittle and thinning it generally. But he says the vaccine is having a similar effect on hair. So, it seems, damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
we will all be buying Chinese wigs next
In procuring a wig from the east
I ordered a hirsute feast
Of wave, fringe and curl
(for something to twirl)
Cos my social life’s effectively ceased.
:)
I hear the Uyghurs have lovely hair
I’ll bear that in mind Janet.
Thankfully my maternal uncles are all blessed with glorious manes so fingers crossed it won’t be for some time yet.
**swivels head””
**flips fringe up and down**
I am obviously on TikTok a lot and the amount of adverts for young men’s wigs is mad.
They don’t call them wigs of course- they are ‘hair installations’ which are glued onto the head for 6-8 weeks, and while they do look good, they are expensive and very high maintenance.
makes me think of that song
grab me by the pony and ride me like a horse
BTW, Janet, ALL of your comments on this thread appear under Latest Posts as: Janet, dreams of sleep on Two Faces.
Hehehe, you kinky little muse!
oh that’s hilarious
sure who wouldn’t
VERY NB: people should not be having a go at the unvaccinated, it’s useless and counter-productive and feeds the extremsists amongst them.
The two views in the second part are only irreconcilable if you take an absolutist stance, which of course many here do. The vaccine passes are arguably a necessary and even life-saving measure during a public health emergency, a compromise between minimising risk and maintaining some semblance of ordinary life continuing during a pandemic. Like any other such measure there is always a risk of misuse, and there has to be oversight and accountability, something we inIireland would justifiably not take for granted.
Believe it or not I have every sympathy with civil liberty concerns, particularly when it comes to the utterly erratic, slapdash and tech-bro break-things-then-monopolise-and-control approach to any sort of digital system, however I simply cannot abide any suggestion that this is all part of a vast, elaborate, globe-spanning plan or a fait accompli, not without better proof than has been this far forthcoming, and certainly not mixed up with quasi-mystical utterences about the vaccines.
So: “fraught with problems, including potential breaches of human rights, so any system must be carefully calibrated to balance individual rights – including the rights to privacy and bodily integrity – with society’s wish to reopen. That means, for example, not allowing vaccine certs to become a route to de facto mandatory vaccination.”
And: ‘The need for measures to encourage vaccinations is more essential than ever – vaccine sceptics, of whatever persuasion, need to understand that there will be consequences as a result of non-vaccination, whether only denial of access to a concert or hospitality venue’
are only a contradiction from a very particular with-us-or-against-us black-and-white greatest-crime-in-history point of view. I plead guilty to not getting across the nuanced idea that both are valid in my own comments, but we do tend towards the adversarial here, and certainly they could do with being being represented in a synthesised form much more often in the media.
A reasonable and generous perspective.
One of the lads will be along shortly to call you a name or whatever
Interesting how ‘extremists’ are only identified on one side, as though there was none on the other. It is exactly those extremists who are calling for discrimination against vaccine free people, discrimination which has not been seen since the HIV/AIDS scandal- all despite the fact that there is no scientific reason or logic to it.
It’s ridiculous.
I thought the refernce to people like that was implicit in my first paragraph, but ok.
You used the word ‘extremists’ in relation to one side only.
It is reasonable to assume that a lot of the current infections are occurring indoors in restaurants and bars etc- who do you think is spreading it there?
If some are getting triggered by the use of the word ‘discrimination’ or comparisons drawn with HIV/AIDS then tough- you don’t get to play the good guys while doing this sort of thing.
There is no empirical scientific evidence that Vaccine Passports reduce spread- none.
‘It is reasonable to assume that a lot of the current infections are occurring indoors in restaurants and bars etc- who do you think is spreading it there?’
Not extremists. What, do you WANT a full lockdown?
‘you don’t get to play the good guys while doing this sort of thing.’
Well, you have to amp up the rhetoric to hyperbole yourselves into a beleagured and persecured minority.
‘There is no empirical scientific evidence that Vaccine Passports reduce spread- none.’
So you keep claiming. Your claims have never once been especially credible or reliable.
I’d still rather go out for a pint with him than with you. You’re an insufferable bully
I’d actually go for a pint with anyone on here,
why ?
because I’d say a lot of people are very far removed from their anonymous internet personalities,
use here as a forum to let off steam
or are often betrayed by the lack of subtilty text provides.
Maybe when this is all over, Janet.
Mines a Guinness.
I’ll have one myself
with a nice peaky malt on the side
and a few crab claws, six Donegal oysters
and a roaring fire
and maybe a quiet fiddle in the corner
sorry getting carried away
I’m a divil got it
for it *
Sounds good, did you mean violin or fiddle.
ah fiddle…hear
Very good.
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqsAaMo5uw&feature=share
how’s that grab ya
The Marino waltz, but they won’t let me post link.
I don’t think so Janet, the reason being that in the internet people feel less inhibited, their “true” personality in real life then is usually more fake than online
Keep testing the microphones.
Yet you produce nothing to prove him wrong. There’s a lot more to debate to just picking out phrases from other posters comments, putting them in inverted commas, and write replies that attack the poster, without producing alternate facts.
Awaiting your inverted comma reply.
Except the burden of proof isnt on Nigel is it?
It’s on SOQ. Or you Giggs if you’re feeling up to it
Proper proof now, not YouTube vids or nuttyboy tweets or telling people to ‘do the research’
Let’s go!
Your most notable contribution to any recent discussion is saying Bruce Y Lee over and over again, and an anagram. If you ever graduate to using inverted commas and directly adressing the words inside it’ll be an upgrade, though be warned, it’s advanced stuff, not for the dim.
@Pat Absolutely not- it is on those who argue for Vaccine Passports to prove that they reduce spread.
Michael McNamara asked this exact question in the Dáil and he was met with a deafening silence.
Given that it is such a divisive and damaging issue- the very least they can do is explain how they reached their decision.
“It is on those who argue for Vaccine Passports to prove that they reduce spread” – I too have civil liberties concerns about their use but too SOQ but how the fupp can you prove something without trialling it first?
Is Ireland the first to introduce Vaccine Passports?
Is there no lessons to be learned from elsewhere?
No we were not the first, but we weren’t far behind so any any lessons would only be for short term effects. We need long term data!!!
And still nothing to contribute then Nigel. Clap clap. Another with a room temperature IQ.
Notable contributions, by your reckoning, is to be the last contribution (by you) to a thread, no matter what idiotic, childish text is contained therein.
https://www.broadsheet.ie/contact/
The Bryce Y Lee reference is to a post by Daisy who tried to use him as some backup for her arguments – only for her to find out that his qualifications were exactly the same as Ivor Cummins. I post it to remind her how easily her dependence on sound bites influences her posts, and that she doesn’t bother to read buying the first sentence of articles.
@Pat. Nigel wrote. “ Your claims have never once been especially credible or reliable.” That therefore puts the onus on Nigel to prove that SOQ always writes incredible or unreliable information. Nigel never rises above attacking the poster.
https://www.broadsheet.ie/contact/
‘And still nothing to contribute then Nigel’
More than your diatribe and self-justifications for stalkerish harassment. I don’t find SOQ credible. I don’r have to prove that to anyone’s satisfaction but my own. If you find SOQ credible, well, i woldn’t be surprised.
‘I’d still rather go out for a pint with him than with you. You’re an insufferable bully’
Oh no.
Anyway.
Well it’s true.
You’re some gobspoo to accuse any other poster here of being “stalkerish”
‘Is there no lessons to be learned from elsewhere?’
I’ve seen plenthy of reasons given for why they’re a good idea, public health wise. Never seen any rationalisation for why they’re a bad one – pubic health wise. At least not ones that don’t involve lies about the effectiveness of vaccines.
@Nigel You need to pay scant
heed to mad auld lad GiggidyGums. Something about this time of the year makes him even more unhinged and feral than usual. Treat the toothless git to Boxy-style home truths and derision.
For once I completely agree with Giggidy. By the way you may think you are funny repeating the same old tedious insults in here day and night but in fact you’re anything but
‘You’re some gobspoo to accuse any other poster here of being “stalkerish”’
Well if I ever constantly post the same thing to a particular poster based on a single comment from months before over and over again, or, indeed, wander around just tossing off petty little insults at someone, get back to me.
SOQ, given his age; has a very pert bum while dancing to some Amapiano.
I am interested in the rhythms- not the politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVj5KJJ3YuE
Amapiano was a salve in the early phases of lockdown… the spring time vibe ’20 .. never forget
Two faced jackass