rich people are too busy being rich to bother with self-reflection, irony or empathy.
Dόn 'The Unstoppable Force' Pídgéόní
And with pulling the ladder up behind them. Sure, it was hard work that got them there, not luck, or supportive business policies or low corporation tax for anything like that.
jambon
Bugger off then, Michael, you despicable little toad.
James Tobin
MO’L has paid more tax on his income in one year than you will ever earn in your lifetime.
Unlike other super-rich people, he pays all his income tax in Ireland and does not use any special purpose vehicles or wheezes to hide his taxable income. You, on your minimum or near-minimum wage do not have the luxury of mobility and must pay tax at the prevailing rate.
He is correct in both of the above statements. Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing, they are highly mobile and will leave a country should the circumstances become too highly taxed.
There do exist headbangers in the transport sector who feel a glorified bumper-car driver should be paid the same as a doctor.
Keith
+1
Don'tBelieveTheHypeOrTheBBC
+1
jambon
When will he leave, do you have a date or anything? I could organise a party to celebrate the loss of the tacky, odious dirtsquirrel.
ALisonT
He is of course responsible for letting working and lower class people of Ireland enjoy foreign air travel. In many ways he has done more for the working people of Ireland than almost anyone. Try to remember that before him the unions and their pals kept regular Air travel for the super rich and those getting free flights.
Rob_G
+1
Before Ryanair, flying was the preserve of business travellers – it used to cost the guts of a grand to fly to London; now young people working in Europe can visit their families several times a year.
MoyestWithExcitement
You think cheap air fare is a favour? Not a way to widen rhe market and make more money?
Owen C
Dublin – London airfare in the early 90s cost the equivalent of two weeks average wages. Its now the equivalent of a day’s average wages. Consider the implications of that on social mobility for the lower end of the income spectrum. He wasn’t doing it for charity, but either were the inventors of lots of the world’s great innovations and inventions.
DubLoony
And European integration. He’s responsible for the great football weekends, Polish plumbers, French getaways.
The ability of working class people to be able to afford airfare is what makes his company profits possible.
I’ve no issue with someone who has worked for their money and has a prosperous life. But there is a problem with people not paying their fair share or inheriting obscene wealth. That is a problem.
jambon
You people are NUTS! Completely and utterly BONKERS!
Rob_G
@ Dubloony
“I’ve no issue with someone who has worked for their money and has a prosperous life. But there is a problem with people not paying their fair share or inheriting obscene wealth. That is a problem.”
… neither of which apply to MO’L
Dole Observer
Please don’t tell me you think affordable air travel would never have come about without Michael O’Leary.
Scary the lengths some will go to glorify successful capitalists.
Andy
Great point.
I’ve flown all over Europe with Ryanair for dirt cheap.
Service is fine – no frills but who cares for €100 return to Poland or Berlin
classter
Michael O’Leary has done a fantastic job as CEO of Ryanair but they did not begin their low-fares approach under him.
So he is not wholely responsible for ‘letting working and lower class people of Ireland enjoy foreign air travel.’
MoyestWithExcitement
“Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing”
Offensive drivel. The super rich got rich by using the resources of their country of origin. They must pay for those resources.
Mickey Twopints
M O’L is a Saudi? Wow.
ahjayzis
Paying your tax to the country you live and run your business from in is your fupping duty, not a charitable act. He’s not doing us a favour, he’s being a decent citizen, and fair play to him for it. But let’s, as a world, make it so he has the same choices of where to bestow his great gifts of legally mandated contribution as the povo failures like nurses and guards you so despise.
“Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing”
Bullpoo! Childish myopic nonsense.
They owe everything for the start they got in life, whether it’s the roads their Mum/Dad drove them to school on, or the schools they went to, or the safe environment they grew up in, or the schools and colleges that educated the staff that work at his/her firm……. and so on….. of course they owe ffs!
rotide
Spot on
Paps
+1
B Bop
Superbly & logically thought out James.
Disasta
+1
Jake38
+1
15 cents
never stop, mick. these are brilliant.
SOMK
100% perfect!
Daddy Wilson
I reckon I’m one of the few people who thinks MOL is actually great.
And he’s being realistic here in fairness.
He’s being honest. The rich will go if they get taxed to the hilt. They should be taxed fairly, incrementally with more than just the current two bands.
But to impose a massive wealth tax will inevitably drive them from the country because they have the resources to do so.
If you had no responsibilities and could go tomorrow to a country with no income tax and a double taxation treaty with ireland (meaning zero Ireland tax on your income while there) you wouldn’t do it?
Get real. You would.
Anomanomanom
Bang on.
MoyestWithExcitement
He’s being honest about how much of a selfish ‘see you next Tuesday’ he is. I can’t see too many people leave their lives behind because their take home dropped and they still have hundreds of thousands or millions to live on every year.
pedeyw
I probably wouldn’t, because I would already have a load of money. But I am not rich nor do I have the prerequisite scabbyness to become so any time soon.
rotide
That’s the thing though. You and I will never be as rich as people like MOL because we’re just not wired that way. The ‘how much is enough’ argument is idiotic, it’s like saying to the gooch ‘you’ve already scored enough goals havent you? Would you not just give it a rest’
MoyestWithExcitement
Wow. Money is not the same as points in a sports match. That’s a crazy analogy.
rotide
To people like MOL and DOB it is.
MoyestWithExcitement
It’s your analogy. You’re the one sarcastically decrying calls for an enough is enough mentality with your comparisons between money and sports/music/scientific endeavour. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how money or the human mind in general actually works.
rotide
I think you misunderstood.
I wasn’t asking for your opinion, I was stating a fact.
MoyestWithExcitement
And you seem to have misunderstood through question you originally answered. Disasta was saying the ‘I want more’ mentality causes all of us problems. So what’s your point? That people have that mentality?
rotide
Kid, if you’re going to troll, at least take the time to reply to the correct reply-chain ok?
MoyestWithExcitement
And once again you resort to trolling when the incoherence and stupidity of your position is called out. Don’t ever change, lad.
rotide
Moyest, Disasta’s comment is the one below this one. This whole chain is in reply to pedeyw who didn’t ask a question.
It must be hard to keep up.
Anne
It’s not comparable with scoring goals really Rotsey.. while it might be fun for the super wealthy to keep getting wealthier, the society they’re part of suffers for it.
They didn’t create their wealth out of nowhere like. O’Leary millions come from other peoples’ money, from other peoples’ labour, from people handing over their money to buy the service he offers. He isn’t doing us a favour by offering that service… the wealthy seem to forget who puts them in the position they’re in.
By the way, I wouldn’t see a problem with taxing him regardless of where he resides.. like the U.S. does with U.S. citizens.
It really isn’t the super wealthy’s fault that society is suffering though as long as they are not breaking any laws. It’s the government’s that make these laws that the barbs should be aimed at.
And no, while they don’t create their wealth out of nowhere, people are more than happy to give MOL their money and people are more than happy to work for him or he wouldn’t have a viable business. Which he does.
MOL pays his taxes, runs a succesful business and people here are somehow angry about that.
Anne
Slavery was once legal, that doesn’t make it right or fair.
But you’re right, the wealthy do have the politicians by the balls.. the likes of Enda Kenny isn’t even embarrassed to be seen with Denis O’Brien.
Bernie Sanders aim in the U.S. is to get big business out of politics and to break up the big banks.. hopefully he might get in.
39 billion in profits last year and they don’t want to pay people.
Walmart’s CEO came out there recently and said sales are down because the economy is in the sh*tter.. people don’t have money to buy goods in Walmart because they don’t pay their employees well. A high portion of Walmart employees are getting state subsidies in the form of food stamps. It makes sense for the economy as a whole to increase wages for lower and middle income earners and for wealth to be less concentrated in the hands of a few.
There’s no one particularly angry at him Rotsey.. it just stinks of hypocrisy. O’Leary thinks the Luas workers should be sacked for looking for a decent wage/a share in the profits of the business their labour keeps going (whatever the rights and wrongs of how much they’re looking for) but he wants to hold onto obscene amounts of money for himself. Do you not see how that’s hypocrisy?
Nigel
It really isn’t the super wealthy’s fault that society is suffering though as long as they are not breaking any laws
I think MOL is being given an overly hard time here over this, but there are a few unexamined assumptions in this statement that illustrate why people are venting at him.
realPolithicks
“It really isn’t the super wealthy’s fault that society is suffering though as long as they are not breaking any laws. It’s the government’s that make these laws that the barbs should be aimed at.”
The governments that pass these laws are bought and paid for by the wealthy and only pass these laws at the request of their owners.
Why should you have a problem losing more of your money when you already have more than you can spend? When is enough enough? The world is the way it is because enough is not enough for these people.
rotide
Musicians should stop making music after their 10th song, because like, enough is enough.
Einstein should probably have knocked those theories on the head. Who needs a theory of general relativity when you’ve got a theory on special relativity? Enough is enough like.
Anne
Replace songs and scientific discovery for a drive towards a more equal/fair society and you’ll be doing well there Rotsey.
rotide
Why should Michael O’Leary be in charge of that particular drive?
Would you expect MLK or Gandhi to play centre forward for Barca?
Nigel
Oh dear God, the commodification of all human endeavour and the equivalence of achievement with the unequally applied reward for some achievement is complete.
Anne
“Why should you have a problem losing more of your money ”
He’s not really losing it.. and it was never his to begin with.
Kieran NYC
How much extra are you volunteering to the taxman this year, Anne?
Anne
Are you looking for the PAYE, PRSI, USC rates is it?
They’re all available on revenue.ie.
In terms of volunteering extra.. there’s hundreds of millions overpaid by PAYE workers, between over payment of tax and unclaimed reliefs.
But if you’re getting at the fact that greed is an inherent human condition, I don’t disagree..
No one wants to pay taxes, but I’m not a multi millionaire threatening to take my millions/billions elsewhere if taxes are increased progressively on my huge ‘earnings’, and at the same time giving out about workers trying to bargain for a fairer wage. Michael O’Leary can bugger off as far as I’m concerned.. and he can be taxed as a citizen of the country regardless of where he lives.
TheOtherGuy
What utter nonsense.
It’s not about having more than you can spend and if you think that’s what drives people who have lots of it then you’re barking. The super rich don’t give a fig about how much is enough or what they can spend it on. They just want to know that it’s there if they want it.
MO’L is rich because he’s managed a company that is one of the biggest success stories in air travel in history and maintained growth, passenger numbers and profits. When the company doesn’t do as well he doesn’t get remunerated as well. It’s pretty basic stuff. Other people get paid well for running profitable companies. That’s how it works.
The drive to a more fair and equal society is all well and good. I’m all for it. I’m also all for the wealthy paying their fair share and when they try to get away without paying it, well they should be punished. But if they use the legal machinations to lower their tax burden then I don’t really think that we can start getting angry and giving out. The truth is if there was a way for people who earn 20, 30 or 40 thousand could use these methods then they would. Same as tradespeople who do nixers and don’t disclose the cash sitting in their sock drawer.
MO’L – much and all as I don’t like him – pays is a taxpayer and a voter and is every bit as entitled to his view as the next person.
MoyestWithExcitement
“But if they use the legal machinations to lower their tax burden”
Pretty sure the question here is about morality as opposed to legality but even still, if tax avoidance can be done legally then the law needs to change.
TheOtherGuy
Change the law and the lawyers will just charge more to find new ways to avoid them. That’s the nature of the beast.
MoyestWithExcitement
No system is perfect. Just because a new system wouldn’t eradicate 100% of tax avoidance doesn’t mean we just let them away with it.
TheOtherGuy
But they don’t just let people away with it to be fair. They publish a list of tax defaulters every quarter. That’s people who’ve tried to evade (which is what we’re actually talking about) paying their taxes. The list also includes their profession as a matter of interest. It makes for interesting reading. Taxi Drivers, Plumbers, Surgeons etc. So it’s not just the wealthy who chance their arm you know.
OK but we’re talking about the people who do it legally. If they’re doing it legally, the law is the problem. Not everyone has the money for creative accountants.
TheOtherGuy
No they don’t. But most of them wish they did if you follow.
What I mean is that if everyone could employ avoidance tactics then the vast majority of them would.
Evasion on a grand scale is, morally, no different to the electrician who fixes his mates pump for €100 and a beer and then throws that €100 into his sock drawer and doesn’t pay tax on it.
MoyestWithExcitement
“What I mean is that if everyone could employ avoidance tactics then the vast majority of them would.”
OK. So why is that relevant? We need money to pay for roads and nurses. Obviously someone who takes home 2 million a year should contribute more to the cost of those roads and nurses than someone who takes home 26k. If they use an accountant to help them contribute less, we have less money to pay for roads and nurses. That is a problem. Why even talk about how many people would do it if they could get away with it?
TheOtherGuy
Because people are getting up on their moral high horse about it.
Which for me means that their morals are directly proportionate to their income. So I have little or no time for moral pontification when it comes to talking about taxes.
MoyestWithExcitement
But you don’t know if everyone would avoid tax if they could. You literally have no proof of that. So this whole time you’re just angry that people are taking the moral highground?
Kieran NYC
Hey Moyest, paid your water charges then?
TheOtherGuy
Well that list of tax defaulters is a good start if you’re looking for proof. As is the black and grey market. As is the volume of people who travel to the north for their booze and shopping when the value is there.
So actually there’s your proof.
Nigel
Heh, as if we don’t get complaints aplenty about what those cost the economy, but yeah, people save ten, twenty maybe a hundred euros on those things, whereas your poor rich person might be down to their last few billion which is worth how many nixers?
MoyestWithExcitement
People shopping for booze up north is proof everyone would avoid tax if they could? Lol! OK.
TheOtherGuy
Nigel – if you’re going to argue the morals of something then the value of the avoidance/evasion doesn’t come into it. It’s either right or wrong.
So the point being that if people are willing to not declare nixers, travel north to get booze cheaper and so on then it’s as morally wrong as using legal machinations to reduce your tax liabilities. Just because it’s not the same value doesn’t make it so.
Moyest – you live in a world that is guided by populist nonsense spouted by Sinn Fein and the Richard Boyd Barretts of this world.
There is a reason why the saying “The only sure things in life are death an taxes” is a cliche. Because everyone complains about and hates paying tax. If the machinations to avoid paying a portion of their tax was available to everyone you’d be stupid to think that the majority of people wouldn’t look to do it. Moral imperatives be damned.
MoyestWithExcitement
Sure. Everyone would love to keep 100% of their income. That isn’t proof that everyone would avoid them if they can. That’s just can’t mad line of reasoning. Why are you so concerned with protecting the feelings of millionaires? I’m sure they’re ok like.
Anne
“So the point being that if people are willing to not declare nixers, travel north to get booze cheaper and so on then it’s as morally wrong as using legal machinations to reduce your tax liabilities. ”
What’s your point? Greed is inherent condition of human nature is it?
There might be no moral difference between an ordinary person not declaring a nixer to revenue and the super wealthy hiding billions offshore or using every loophole (that’s not generally available to ordinary workers) to avoid paying taxes.. but the outcome is very different.
The fact of the matter is no one wants to pay taxes, that’s irrelevant to the point of who should be paying what percentage of their income to contribute to the running of society.
Here’s an interesting debate on this, if anyone’s interested, from the U.S. but the ideas can apply anywhere.
I’m not concerned with protecting the feelings of anyone. I’m more concerned with the typical attitude of the left that rich people are rich because they’re mean and bad people.
And the mere fact that people avoid paying tax anyway they can (cheaper booze in the north, not declaring nixers, understating revenue etc) is clear proof that people would avoid tax if possible.
Anne
an inherent.. I should say
MoyestWithExcitement
“I’m more concerned with the typical attitude of the left”
Right so this has just been a partisan rant against ‘themmuns’. You don’t like people getting uppity and speaking ill about their betters?
Anne
Of course people will avoid paying tax if they can… that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t aim to have the super wealthy pay more tax than they currently do.
The rich are usually not mean or bad.. they’re just greedy and powerful and our little pea-brain retired teacher gombeens are particularly susceptible to their influence, as long as they get a little pat on the head.
Tish Mahorey
Are you one of those purple shirt yellow tie Ford Mondeo / Opel Insignia industrial estate communter belt middle manager types who think MOL represents you?
Daddy Wilson
Wow you now me so well.
He represents no one but himself.
People haven’t taken my point above – I am not saying if you were rich you would go, I am saying that as of right now you would go. If you could earn tax free 100k+ per year, you would absolutely do it and think nothing of depriving the Irish exchequer of your taxable 40k per year.
You can even repatriate that money and not be liable to tax.
If you say you wouldn’t, you’re a liar.
MoyestWithExcitement
If people wouldn’t act as selfishly as you, they must be lying? That’s painfully stupid.
Daddy Wilson
Hold on – How is going to the likes of Bahamas or UAE to earn a better income a selfish act?
Should someone come home from these places with their wages and donate a chunk to the taxman here?
MoyestWithExcitement
You got rich off the back this states resources. If you’re not prepared to pay for those resources, you’re just a thief.
Daddy Wilson
What the sh** are you talking about?!!
I think you’re having a different conversation …
MoyestWithExcitement
You don’t know what taxes actually are, do you.
Daddy Wilson
No of course not.
To be honest my posts have demonstrated a far superior knowledge of taxation systems than anything you have spouted here.
MoyestWithExcitement
Oh you *do* know what taxes are? You’ll be able to understand my last post then. If you don’t want to pay tax and take steps to avoid it, you are a thief.
Daddy Wilson
If your wages are earned within the state and you do not pay tax on them then yes I agree. Morally questionable but legally perfectly acceptable.
MOL, is not doing this.
Anyone leaving to earn money abroad is not doing this.
MoyestWithExcitement
People leaving to avoid tax are not leaving to avoid paying tax? So if O’Leary leaves, he’ll take his company with him? So you forsee a loaf of businesses magically finding new markets if CEOs have to take home a little less money on their massive salaries?
lol @ new fresh blood having the life sucked out of him by habitual troll
MoyestWithExcitement
I’m not new and you’re constant stalking and trolling of me actually makes me feel special. Happy Tuesday.
Daddy Wilson
Psst, he was talking to me!!
MoyestWithExcitement
No I was talking to him.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
@ Daddy
That’s how the troll works – he’s sitting there at his desk jockey dead end call centre job wondering, well will I play with myself today, or will I play with some online commentator – we’re all wise to him here at this stage so don’t get involved!
Rob_G
I’m trying to decide if Moyest is really that self-unaware, or if it is just another part of his shtick.
MoyestWithExcitement
Daddy, the guy above is a creepy shut in who says really inappropriate things to women. We all worked him out a while ago. Most ignore him. That’s my advice to you.
MoyestWithExcitement
Good man, Rob. Can’t come up with.a defence for spreading propaganda so you get personal. HQ will be delighted with you.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
oops it’s getting angry now – watch out Rob
i’ve seen this phase before – this is trollbot v2.0 level 1.1g
next phase is when it starts going on about how good looking it is or that it has a girlfriend,
MoyestWithExcitement
And I thought we were friends. :(
Anomanomanom
So let me get this straight, the above conversation is all about MoL and his comments. First off his comments are correct but have nothing to do with each other. Why do Luas drivers deserve more money? Is it because the people running the company have it profitable while paying the drivers good, sorry great wages? They company owes it’s employees nothing expect the agreed wages. They have no right to think the deserve some of the profit. And MoL second comment is also correct. If your at the top of your profession earning say €200,000 and a “super” tax comes in, why would you stay when clearly your brilliant at what you do and can get a job somewhere else. Hence taking your expertise out of our economy.
Not all rich persons are greedy tax dodging creeps like [REDACTED]
rotide
Spot on
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
I think it’s quite an interesting juxtaposition of seemingly contradictory statements by a business leader.
But then I’d suspect nothing else of self-involved, driven, single-focus, brute force business types.
At the end of the guy this is just some guy’s opinion. Like any gobdaw down in the pub. Big deal.
What is interesting is the inordinate amount of media coverage it’s getting.
That would have made a more insightful cartoon/piece of political commentary.
Cabbage Bazooka Firing Squad
Really. Would it. Giving this a B- so, are you.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
No probably a D, I’ve seen Mick’s other work and some of it is of a much higher standard. Sorry Mick.
rotide
It’s not just ‘some guy’s’ opinion. It’s the opinion of someone who would be directly afffected by the taxes in question. So it’s valid.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
I didn’t say his opinion wasn’t valid.
I said it was pertaining to one specific personal set of circumstances and view on things – so I actually said the same as what you, asshat, accused me of not saying.
Call yourself an editor? You’re a worse troll than that moyest chap, at least he’s good at being nasty. You’re just an annoying silly little fag-end.
rotide
Allow me to quote your own words.
You said “At the end of the guy this is just some guy’s opinion. Like any gobdaw down in the pub. Big deal. ”
Which pretty much says his opinion isn’t valid.
So no, His opinion is not just like any gobdaw’s opinion down the pub. His is informed by actually being one of the people in question, rather than just a gobsaw down the pub.
If you somehow meant to bash the keys in the right order to convey this point, then I’m afraid you are way beyond the help of any editor.
ps nice little adhominium there at the end, learnt that from the boy moyes?
MoyestWithExcitement
Nobody needs my help working out that you’re just a contrarIan little troll, lad.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
haha – good answer but wrong.
Never mind, at least you tried.
Nigel
I’ve no idea why people are angry over this. It’s a very common refrain, that if you tax the rich they’ll leave. Spectacularly tasteless to rub the powerlessness of the lower rungs in society in their faces, particularly after the Panama Papers seem to indicate that the business of the super-rich is to drive the world economy to stagnation – hm, maybe the question answers itself. it doesn’t help that there seem to be people who think that a low-cost airline is a perfect model for running a country.
Jimmy 2 tones
O Leary is a horrible human being
rory
Good work Mick.
rory
I think you struck a nerve.
ahjayzis
Nurses pay is reduced and we have a shortage of nurses and can’t get entice them home from the NHS or Australia – but we’re bankrupt! So obvs nothing we can do and hospital overcrowding and general health chaos is just par for the course.
Under NO circumstances can we risk losing even one quadrillionaire though.
Rob_G
If MOL decided to move abroad, that would be few million euros less in tax take each year, equivalent to about a dozen nurses.
So, yes.
Anne
Where’d you get that from?
ahjayzis
Yup. Which is why residency tourism needs to be tackled. We’ve already allowed a ballooning of the insanely wealthy class, we need to start drawing back on it, as a continent/world. It wasn’t communism we were living under when 70% and 90% tax bands existed, even though that’s been scrubbed from memory.
We didn’t always live under an oligarchy who’s interests trumped everyone else’s, we’ve gone backwards.
Rob_G
“It wasn’t communism we were living under when 70% and 90% tax bands existed, even though that’s been scrubbed from memory.”
– are you saying that we should go back to the glory days of the 70s and 80s??
If we were to increase taxes on the wealthy too much, we would killing the goose that lays the golden eggs – witness France’s recent flirtation with a tax on the super-rich; they all just left.
Yes, 90% tax bands were the reason the Irish economy was in the tank during the 70s and 80s. As always, the only selling point propagandists have to persuade us to accept the rigged economy of today is fear.
Rob_G
Good man – disregard the rest of my point.
MoyestWithExcitement
I didn’t. That was the fear part of mentioned.
Rob_G
France repealing the super-tax wasn’t based on ‘fear’; it was based on diminishing marginal returns.
rotide
You can cut the hatred of anyone with a bit of talent for business and success in here with a knife.
Get a grip rotide. Having qualms about the accumulation of wealth equal to many hundreds of times what you could spend in a lifetime isn’t class envy. Life is getting tougher for people on the bottom and middle, and the people at the top have governments by the scruff of the neck and are getting richer. Fair reward is fair reward, but to be taxed on your 40 millionth euro at the same rate as your 40 thousandth is wrong, paying less tax on unearned income than you do on earned income is wrong, earning a thousand times your company’s average wage is ridiculous.
When people argued that maybe the aristocracy shouldn’t continue to control all the land and all the laws and all the people they weren’t jealous of their opulence, they wanted society to be made fairer and more balanced.
MoyestWithExcitement
+ Several
Daddy Wilson
ahjazis you sound like a first your student expousing the values of communism.
Do you wish there to be a cap on what one person can accumulate?
If so, welcome to step one of killing business advancement and ingenuity.
Daddy Wilson
cr** sorry, didn’t read that.
I’m on board with increasing the number of tax bands, gradual increasing of liability up the scale, which would reduce the taxation for the majority of the middle and increase the liability in line with the wealth. Proportionally fairer taxation.
MoyestWithExcitement
“you sound like a first your student expousing the values of communism.”
Personal attack.
“Do you wish there to be a cap on what one person can accumulate?”
Irrelevant strawman meant to distract. Nowhere in his post was a call to cap earnings. Please be less dishonest.
rotide
The irony of moyest complaining about personal attacks :)
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
First year? Junior infants I thought.
To be fair to ahjaysiz though at least he sounds like a genuine leftie of principle who believes in stuff and not some nasty little bell end with nothing better to do than insult people all day
ahjayzis
You sound like you have trouble with reading comprehension and the concept of nuance.
No, no cap, just progressive taxation – like what pertained before the neoliberal age began in the 70’s really, I’m not advocating anything that hasn’t been done before.
So what you’re saying is you believe in a corporate fascist state akin to 1984 or something? Is that right? Would you a party member now or a prole or what? Since we’re doing black and white, like
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
We have progressive taxation on income – what’s your point?
Owen C
we have a very progressive taxation system in terms of the effective total rate paid by each person rising alongside their income (on top of tax credits, standard rate and higher rate bands; exemptions and four bands of USC; tax free thresholds on CGT/CAT etc)
ahjayzis
Beyond about 40k it’s a flat rate, that’s very limited form of progression.
In the 70’s the top rate on income in Britain was 75%, in the 50’s in the US it was 90%
Hardly communism when this was the west in the middle of the cold war.
It’s only since Thatcher, Reagan and neoliberalism that these sound outlandish, they were pretty bloody common not so long ago. You know, when people could buy houses and were assured of good pensions and one person in a couple could not work at all. Because income equality was lower, we all did better.
Owen C
“one person in a couple could not work at all”
Hmm, pretty sure you’re opening up some gender inequality and female social mobility issues here. Wasn’t necessarily a better time from that perspective.
By the way, it is the neoliberal age of globalisation that has seen global absolute poverty levels fall through the floor. Have a think about that.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
Well ahjaysiz surely you are familiar with the argument that as the progressive bands were made less draconian at the higher ends, net tax take increased?
As for your point about buying taxes I have been told by an older generation that hardly anyone could afford to buy a house in the 80s as while prices were lower relative to income, finance was excessive in terms of interest rates.
We now have greater competition with the provision of financial products, and accordingly a less stable fiscal framework, but if from you are saying the 70s were halcyon days in Britain’s economy, then why did they need an IMF bailout?
Owen C
Also, rampant tax evasion and the black economy were justified or apologised for by much of the population in the 70s/80s due to the horrifically high level of both tax and interest rates
ahjayzis
Oops, I was overharsh, didn’t see your qualifier after.
Paying CEO’s 14 million a year doesn’t advance business or innovation – it’s money that could be spent on research, development, etc. spent on one man instead. If progressively ramping-up taxation made increasingly otherworldy salaries less attractive there’s more cash to innovate, pay the workers more, which increases demand, which grows companies, etc, etc, etc.
I’ve accepted jobs at a loss in income before – because I like to work, was drawn to the project, not the pay packet. I think passion is something that makes leaders, not their bank balance. Especially after a certain amount because quite simply there’s only so much money you can actually spend.
Giving me 100 billion euro in the morning will not improve the economy and living standards, distributing it among a million people will.
rotide
to be taxed on your 40 millionth euro at the same rate as your 40 thousandth is wrong
There would be MANY people that would argue this point.
As to the ridiculous aristocracy argument, MOL wasn’t born into his millions, he earned them.
ahjayzis
Not MOL in particular, the oligarchic class that’s developed, the one’s with the ear of the governments the ones who’ve gotten richer as the world got poorer during the economic crisis. The ones who buy American elections. The ones our government won’t touch.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
What is a fair way to index tax to earnings Ahjaysiz?
Anne
Well said ahjayzis..
Nigel
There’s someone here to hate everyone. Someone made a snarky comment about the nun who died in the earthquake this morning, for God’s sake.
Anne
Brilliant again Mick.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
Yes Mick, please repeat my worthless banal prejudices and preconceived ugly nihilism back to me – that’s what I live for.
Twunt
It is juvenile and overly simplistic. Lusa drivers are striking and holding the capital to ransom if not paid more, MO’L will leave leave if he is excessively taxed.
MoyestWithExcitement
Right, so MOL is holding the country to ransom by threatening to take the money we need to pay teachers and nurses elsewhere.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
What’s particularly amusing is when the most knobbly-ended trolls try and call each other out ;)
John
You’re very boring to be honest about it. Every thread is ruined with your cattiness.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
Says random commentator I’ve never heard of.
Freddie
But he’s not holding the country to ransom. If Ryanair were to re-locate their base abroad, the country would carry on without much problems. He is merely warning that other companies will probably do the same. Then we’d feel it. He has no control whatsoever over what the likes of Google, Microsoft etc do, he is only reminding us why they ever came here in the first place.
MoyestWithExcitement
‘Keep giving us discounts for using your resources or we’ll go elsewhere’ is clearly holding us to ransom if striking is.
Kolmo
We should be proud to pay taxes, we should take pride in the efficiency of our state mechanisms to provide a service for which they were intended, we should be proud that the state protects the citizens from the rapacious nature of the speculator and criminal financial class – I am currently not proud.
I like M O’Leary, he has balls, he is not a politician or a social worker, but like us all, he has a social responsibility to those he shares the country with
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
He has in his male genitalia.
He has no more or no less such “social responsibility” than anyone else and even though he is not my cup of Lapsang Souchong he is reported to be paying a lot of tax in this country, so in fact he may be contributing a lot more than most.
Kolmo
we are in agreement then.
Anne
I’ve listened to interviews with O’Leary before.. he’d charge his mother for taking a p*ss on his planes if he could. He was on about people standing up too on his planes, to fit more in of course.. he also thinks a co-pilot is unnecessary. A race to the bottom, with max profits is all Michael is about. Safety is only a nuisance, and interference in maximising profits it seems.
Rob_G
Whatever else you can say about MOL, he certainly knows how to get loads of publicity for free.
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
Yes, how dare this world-class business leader have an opinion about how to deliver more value to his shareholders? I mean, how DARE he!
* vigrously fan’s self and clutches pearls, anxiously
Daddy Wilson
Don’t mention the duty of a director to provide wealth to shareholders in here.
While it is the primary objective, people here freak out over the words wealth and shareholders
They Tried To Make Me Go To Rehab
Where do they actually think the tax revenue comes from?
I often wonder on this as I sip my Dom Perignon
B Bop
Calm down dear.
All little nuggets of entertaining shock factor free publicity.
And the safest airline too.
Anne
“Calm down dear.”
I hope your mother gives you a clip ’round the ear when you talk to her like that..
Cabbage Bazooka Firing Squad
Gotta say, Broadsheet is the place to be if you wanna see aul fellas getting thick and flicking elastics at each other.
DD
I blame Hitler.
realPolithicks
Thats brilliant Mick!
Gock
Michael O Leary has this clickbait era sussed. He knows well that any publicity is good publicity for him and so he will give his opinion on anything he can come up with an opinion on. He probably doesn’t believe half the stuff he says but he know that if he annoys people all the grumps and reactionaries on various websites will kick off, just as he wants them to and before you know it he will be on Joe Duffy, getting free airtime and free publicity.
Peter Dempsey
Rotide – “You can cut the hatred of anyone with a bit of talent for business and success in here with a knife.”
I agree with this. While not approaching Rabble levels of anti-business sentiment, the views expressed on Broadsheet are misanthropic and begrudging. It’s not just the rich or the successful businessman that gets the barbs. I feel that there’s a snide air directed at the average middle class person. You know the type – the “normal” people. The ones who don’t go protesting, who don’t have a Twitter echo chamber of perpetually outraged peers, the unhip, the mass-goers, the ones who play golf etc. You won’t see them in the Irish Times Saturday magazine or hanging out in Stoneybatter, Smithfield. They’re the boring suburbanites or worse, those who live in Meath, Kildare, Laois and commute to work.
For evidence check out Tish Mahoney’s vicious dig “Are you one of those purple shirt yellow tie Ford Mondeo / Opel Insignia industrial estate communter belt middle manager types who think MOL represents you?”
which runs down
– Men in suits.
– Men who drove ordinary cars.
– People who can’t afford to live near work so have a long commute
– People who have risen to manager level in their employment.
Andy
+1
Moral of the story.
Succeed at your peril.
Anne
That’s not the moral of the story at all.
Success is great… but wealth is concentrated too much in the hands of a few at the detriment of the middle class your man above you refers to.
Cabbage Bazooka Firing Squad
whereas you are a ray of sunshine
and definitely not being eaten alive by hate and inadquacy
oh no
not you.
My Meat is Murder
Haha
or an expanding waistline
Or a dull job
Or terrible sex life
Or not having any friends
Oh no
Kieran NYC
So in conclusion: Michael O’Leary should love paying taxes and never try to legally reduce or minimize his bill because that’s immoral and wrong.
But I want my USC cut, I grudgingly pay that progressive property tax and I’m not paying water charges. Because reasons.
Seems like everyone has a version of the ‘one rule for the rich, one rule for the rest of us’.
Anne
That’s not it at all really. Read it again. Slowly.
Nigel
I’d say poor Mr O’Leary is sweatin’ to pay the bills each month and pay for health care for himself and his family and pay for long-term care and therapy for sick or disabled relatives and meet the mortgage payments and eke out the petrol for the car and scrape a cents and half-cents together for a school trip. I’d say austerity hit him hard, so groaning under the USC and the water charges and all the cuts is totally equivalent to him casting his eye abroad at the thought of a silly populist tax increase for the wealthy. The law in all its majesty insists that the rich and the poor alike pay taxes on their yachts! And their stud farms! The injustice of it!
Kieran NYC
Everyone can come up with excuses why they personally shouldn’t pay tax and don’t see the hypocrisy.
You could vote for parties who claim they could fix all those problems above but they don’t seem to want to go into government..
Nigel
Yes, that’s right, that’s all an excuse to not pay taxes, not actual stuff that actually happens being reframed as people looking for excuses to not pay taxes as opposed to typical everyday injustice and inequality.
Harry Molloy
you’re comments are really stupid in my opinion
rory
@Harry Molloy
What does it feel like when somebody tells you you are stupid?
Nigel
@Harry Molloy – show your work.
My Meat is Murder
Whiney irrelevant ad hominem nonsense
Nigel
That’s, like, your opinion, man.
My Meat is Murder
The point he’s making Nigel is that you’re better than that
rotide
+1 KFC
Notice how when people can’t actually nail MOL for being a criminal and straight out avoiding tax, they switch the narrative to ‘the super rich’ in general.
rory
This page is confusing. So much emotion going on under the words. It’s hard to read.
rich people are too busy being rich to bother with self-reflection, irony or empathy.
And with pulling the ladder up behind them. Sure, it was hard work that got them there, not luck, or supportive business policies or low corporation tax for anything like that.
Bugger off then, Michael, you despicable little toad.
MO’L has paid more tax on his income in one year than you will ever earn in your lifetime.
Unlike other super-rich people, he pays all his income tax in Ireland and does not use any special purpose vehicles or wheezes to hide his taxable income. You, on your minimum or near-minimum wage do not have the luxury of mobility and must pay tax at the prevailing rate.
He is correct in both of the above statements. Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing, they are highly mobile and will leave a country should the circumstances become too highly taxed.
There do exist headbangers in the transport sector who feel a glorified bumper-car driver should be paid the same as a doctor.
+1
+1
When will he leave, do you have a date or anything? I could organise a party to celebrate the loss of the tacky, odious dirtsquirrel.
He is of course responsible for letting working and lower class people of Ireland enjoy foreign air travel. In many ways he has done more for the working people of Ireland than almost anyone. Try to remember that before him the unions and their pals kept regular Air travel for the super rich and those getting free flights.
+1
Before Ryanair, flying was the preserve of business travellers – it used to cost the guts of a grand to fly to London; now young people working in Europe can visit their families several times a year.
You think cheap air fare is a favour? Not a way to widen rhe market and make more money?
Dublin – London airfare in the early 90s cost the equivalent of two weeks average wages. Its now the equivalent of a day’s average wages. Consider the implications of that on social mobility for the lower end of the income spectrum. He wasn’t doing it for charity, but either were the inventors of lots of the world’s great innovations and inventions.
And European integration. He’s responsible for the great football weekends, Polish plumbers, French getaways.
The ability of working class people to be able to afford airfare is what makes his company profits possible.
I’ve no issue with someone who has worked for their money and has a prosperous life. But there is a problem with people not paying their fair share or inheriting obscene wealth. That is a problem.
You people are NUTS! Completely and utterly BONKERS!
@ Dubloony
“I’ve no issue with someone who has worked for their money and has a prosperous life. But there is a problem with people not paying their fair share or inheriting obscene wealth. That is a problem.”
… neither of which apply to MO’L
Please don’t tell me you think affordable air travel would never have come about without Michael O’Leary.
Scary the lengths some will go to glorify successful capitalists.
Great point.
I’ve flown all over Europe with Ryanair for dirt cheap.
Service is fine – no frills but who cares for €100 return to Poland or Berlin
Michael O’Leary has done a fantastic job as CEO of Ryanair but they did not begin their low-fares approach under him.
So he is not wholely responsible for ‘letting working and lower class people of Ireland enjoy foreign air travel.’
“Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing”
Offensive drivel. The super rich got rich by using the resources of their country of origin. They must pay for those resources.
M O’L is a Saudi? Wow.
Paying your tax to the country you live and run your business from in is your fupping duty, not a charitable act. He’s not doing us a favour, he’s being a decent citizen, and fair play to him for it. But let’s, as a world, make it so he has the same choices of where to bestow his great gifts of legally mandated contribution as the povo failures like nurses and guards you so despise.
“Super rich people owe their country of origin nothing”
Bullpoo! Childish myopic nonsense.
They owe everything for the start they got in life, whether it’s the roads their Mum/Dad drove them to school on, or the schools they went to, or the safe environment they grew up in, or the schools and colleges that educated the staff that work at his/her firm……. and so on….. of course they owe ffs!
Spot on
+1
Superbly & logically thought out James.
+1
+1
never stop, mick. these are brilliant.
100% perfect!
I reckon I’m one of the few people who thinks MOL is actually great.
And he’s being realistic here in fairness.
He’s being honest. The rich will go if they get taxed to the hilt. They should be taxed fairly, incrementally with more than just the current two bands.
But to impose a massive wealth tax will inevitably drive them from the country because they have the resources to do so.
If you had no responsibilities and could go tomorrow to a country with no income tax and a double taxation treaty with ireland (meaning zero Ireland tax on your income while there) you wouldn’t do it?
Get real. You would.
Bang on.
He’s being honest about how much of a selfish ‘see you next Tuesday’ he is. I can’t see too many people leave their lives behind because their take home dropped and they still have hundreds of thousands or millions to live on every year.
I probably wouldn’t, because I would already have a load of money. But I am not rich nor do I have the prerequisite scabbyness to become so any time soon.
That’s the thing though. You and I will never be as rich as people like MOL because we’re just not wired that way. The ‘how much is enough’ argument is idiotic, it’s like saying to the gooch ‘you’ve already scored enough goals havent you? Would you not just give it a rest’
Wow. Money is not the same as points in a sports match. That’s a crazy analogy.
To people like MOL and DOB it is.
It’s your analogy. You’re the one sarcastically decrying calls for an enough is enough mentality with your comparisons between money and sports/music/scientific endeavour. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how money or the human mind in general actually works.
I think you misunderstood.
I wasn’t asking for your opinion, I was stating a fact.
And you seem to have misunderstood through question you originally answered. Disasta was saying the ‘I want more’ mentality causes all of us problems. So what’s your point? That people have that mentality?
Kid, if you’re going to troll, at least take the time to reply to the correct reply-chain ok?
And once again you resort to trolling when the incoherence and stupidity of your position is called out. Don’t ever change, lad.
Moyest, Disasta’s comment is the one below this one. This whole chain is in reply to pedeyw who didn’t ask a question.
It must be hard to keep up.
It’s not comparable with scoring goals really Rotsey.. while it might be fun for the super wealthy to keep getting wealthier, the society they’re part of suffers for it.
They didn’t create their wealth out of nowhere like. O’Leary millions come from other peoples’ money, from other peoples’ labour, from people handing over their money to buy the service he offers. He isn’t doing us a favour by offering that service… the wealthy seem to forget who puts them in the position they’re in.
By the way, I wouldn’t see a problem with taxing him regardless of where he resides.. like the U.S. does with U.S. citizens.
‘Inequality for all’ is worth a watch on the problems with the vast inequality of wealth distribution in the U.S –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU9VEcgYEp4&list=PLL-lGg1lfKVl6u5QLjrbp8uAHywX-ZZs8&index=34
It really isn’t the super wealthy’s fault that society is suffering though as long as they are not breaking any laws. It’s the government’s that make these laws that the barbs should be aimed at.
And no, while they don’t create their wealth out of nowhere, people are more than happy to give MOL their money and people are more than happy to work for him or he wouldn’t have a viable business. Which he does.
MOL pays his taxes, runs a succesful business and people here are somehow angry about that.
Slavery was once legal, that doesn’t make it right or fair.
But you’re right, the wealthy do have the politicians by the balls.. the likes of Enda Kenny isn’t even embarrassed to be seen with Denis O’Brien.
Bernie Sanders aim in the U.S. is to get big business out of politics and to break up the big banks.. hopefully he might get in.
40,000 Verizon workers are on strike in the U.S. at the moment..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/18/verizon-employee-why-im-on-strike
39 billion in profits last year and they don’t want to pay people.
Walmart’s CEO came out there recently and said sales are down because the economy is in the sh*tter.. people don’t have money to buy goods in Walmart because they don’t pay their employees well. A high portion of Walmart employees are getting state subsidies in the form of food stamps. It makes sense for the economy as a whole to increase wages for lower and middle income earners and for wealth to be less concentrated in the hands of a few.
There’s no one particularly angry at him Rotsey.. it just stinks of hypocrisy. O’Leary thinks the Luas workers should be sacked for looking for a decent wage/a share in the profits of the business their labour keeps going (whatever the rights and wrongs of how much they’re looking for) but he wants to hold onto obscene amounts of money for himself. Do you not see how that’s hypocrisy?
I think MOL is being given an overly hard time here over this, but there are a few unexamined assumptions in this statement that illustrate why people are venting at him.
“It really isn’t the super wealthy’s fault that society is suffering though as long as they are not breaking any laws. It’s the government’s that make these laws that the barbs should be aimed at.”
The governments that pass these laws are bought and paid for by the wealthy and only pass these laws at the request of their owners.
Yup
Why should you have a problem losing more of your money when you already have more than you can spend? When is enough enough? The world is the way it is because enough is not enough for these people.
Musicians should stop making music after their 10th song, because like, enough is enough.
Einstein should probably have knocked those theories on the head. Who needs a theory of general relativity when you’ve got a theory on special relativity? Enough is enough like.
Replace songs and scientific discovery for a drive towards a more equal/fair society and you’ll be doing well there Rotsey.
Why should Michael O’Leary be in charge of that particular drive?
Would you expect MLK or Gandhi to play centre forward for Barca?
Oh dear God, the commodification of all human endeavour and the equivalence of achievement with the unequally applied reward for some achievement is complete.
“Why should you have a problem losing more of your money ”
He’s not really losing it.. and it was never his to begin with.
How much extra are you volunteering to the taxman this year, Anne?
Are you looking for the PAYE, PRSI, USC rates is it?
They’re all available on revenue.ie.
In terms of volunteering extra.. there’s hundreds of millions overpaid by PAYE workers, between over payment of tax and unclaimed reliefs.
But if you’re getting at the fact that greed is an inherent human condition, I don’t disagree..
No one wants to pay taxes, but I’m not a multi millionaire threatening to take my millions/billions elsewhere if taxes are increased progressively on my huge ‘earnings’, and at the same time giving out about workers trying to bargain for a fairer wage. Michael O’Leary can bugger off as far as I’m concerned.. and he can be taxed as a citizen of the country regardless of where he lives.
What utter nonsense.
It’s not about having more than you can spend and if you think that’s what drives people who have lots of it then you’re barking. The super rich don’t give a fig about how much is enough or what they can spend it on. They just want to know that it’s there if they want it.
MO’L is rich because he’s managed a company that is one of the biggest success stories in air travel in history and maintained growth, passenger numbers and profits. When the company doesn’t do as well he doesn’t get remunerated as well. It’s pretty basic stuff. Other people get paid well for running profitable companies. That’s how it works.
The drive to a more fair and equal society is all well and good. I’m all for it. I’m also all for the wealthy paying their fair share and when they try to get away without paying it, well they should be punished. But if they use the legal machinations to lower their tax burden then I don’t really think that we can start getting angry and giving out. The truth is if there was a way for people who earn 20, 30 or 40 thousand could use these methods then they would. Same as tradespeople who do nixers and don’t disclose the cash sitting in their sock drawer.
MO’L – much and all as I don’t like him – pays is a taxpayer and a voter and is every bit as entitled to his view as the next person.
“But if they use the legal machinations to lower their tax burden”
Pretty sure the question here is about morality as opposed to legality but even still, if tax avoidance can be done legally then the law needs to change.
Change the law and the lawyers will just charge more to find new ways to avoid them. That’s the nature of the beast.
No system is perfect. Just because a new system wouldn’t eradicate 100% of tax avoidance doesn’t mean we just let them away with it.
But they don’t just let people away with it to be fair. They publish a list of tax defaulters every quarter. That’s people who’ve tried to evade (which is what we’re actually talking about) paying their taxes. The list also includes their profession as a matter of interest. It makes for interesting reading. Taxi Drivers, Plumbers, Surgeons etc. So it’s not just the wealthy who chance their arm you know.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/
OK but we’re talking about the people who do it legally. If they’re doing it legally, the law is the problem. Not everyone has the money for creative accountants.
No they don’t. But most of them wish they did if you follow.
What I mean is that if everyone could employ avoidance tactics then the vast majority of them would.
Evasion on a grand scale is, morally, no different to the electrician who fixes his mates pump for €100 and a beer and then throws that €100 into his sock drawer and doesn’t pay tax on it.
“What I mean is that if everyone could employ avoidance tactics then the vast majority of them would.”
OK. So why is that relevant? We need money to pay for roads and nurses. Obviously someone who takes home 2 million a year should contribute more to the cost of those roads and nurses than someone who takes home 26k. If they use an accountant to help them contribute less, we have less money to pay for roads and nurses. That is a problem. Why even talk about how many people would do it if they could get away with it?
Because people are getting up on their moral high horse about it.
Which for me means that their morals are directly proportionate to their income. So I have little or no time for moral pontification when it comes to talking about taxes.
But you don’t know if everyone would avoid tax if they could. You literally have no proof of that. So this whole time you’re just angry that people are taking the moral highground?
Hey Moyest, paid your water charges then?
Well that list of tax defaulters is a good start if you’re looking for proof. As is the black and grey market. As is the volume of people who travel to the north for their booze and shopping when the value is there.
So actually there’s your proof.
Heh, as if we don’t get complaints aplenty about what those cost the economy, but yeah, people save ten, twenty maybe a hundred euros on those things, whereas your poor rich person might be down to their last few billion which is worth how many nixers?
People shopping for booze up north is proof everyone would avoid tax if they could? Lol! OK.
Nigel – if you’re going to argue the morals of something then the value of the avoidance/evasion doesn’t come into it. It’s either right or wrong.
So the point being that if people are willing to not declare nixers, travel north to get booze cheaper and so on then it’s as morally wrong as using legal machinations to reduce your tax liabilities. Just because it’s not the same value doesn’t make it so.
Moyest – you live in a world that is guided by populist nonsense spouted by Sinn Fein and the Richard Boyd Barretts of this world.
There is a reason why the saying “The only sure things in life are death an taxes” is a cliche. Because everyone complains about and hates paying tax. If the machinations to avoid paying a portion of their tax was available to everyone you’d be stupid to think that the majority of people wouldn’t look to do it. Moral imperatives be damned.
Sure. Everyone would love to keep 100% of their income. That isn’t proof that everyone would avoid them if they can. That’s just can’t mad line of reasoning. Why are you so concerned with protecting the feelings of millionaires? I’m sure they’re ok like.
“So the point being that if people are willing to not declare nixers, travel north to get booze cheaper and so on then it’s as morally wrong as using legal machinations to reduce your tax liabilities. ”
What’s your point? Greed is inherent condition of human nature is it?
There might be no moral difference between an ordinary person not declaring a nixer to revenue and the super wealthy hiding billions offshore or using every loophole (that’s not generally available to ordinary workers) to avoid paying taxes.. but the outcome is very different.
The fact of the matter is no one wants to pay taxes, that’s irrelevant to the point of who should be paying what percentage of their income to contribute to the running of society.
Here’s an interesting debate on this, if anyone’s interested, from the U.S. but the ideas can apply anywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irHgknaS2jA
I’m not concerned with protecting the feelings of anyone. I’m more concerned with the typical attitude of the left that rich people are rich because they’re mean and bad people.
And the mere fact that people avoid paying tax anyway they can (cheaper booze in the north, not declaring nixers, understating revenue etc) is clear proof that people would avoid tax if possible.
an inherent.. I should say
“I’m more concerned with the typical attitude of the left”
Right so this has just been a partisan rant against ‘themmuns’. You don’t like people getting uppity and speaking ill about their betters?
Of course people will avoid paying tax if they can… that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t aim to have the super wealthy pay more tax than they currently do.
The rich are usually not mean or bad.. they’re just greedy and powerful and our little pea-brain retired teacher gombeens are particularly susceptible to their influence, as long as they get a little pat on the head.
Are you one of those purple shirt yellow tie Ford Mondeo / Opel Insignia industrial estate communter belt middle manager types who think MOL represents you?
Wow you now me so well.
He represents no one but himself.
People haven’t taken my point above – I am not saying if you were rich you would go, I am saying that as of right now you would go. If you could earn tax free 100k+ per year, you would absolutely do it and think nothing of depriving the Irish exchequer of your taxable 40k per year.
You can even repatriate that money and not be liable to tax.
If you say you wouldn’t, you’re a liar.
If people wouldn’t act as selfishly as you, they must be lying? That’s painfully stupid.
Hold on – How is going to the likes of Bahamas or UAE to earn a better income a selfish act?
Should someone come home from these places with their wages and donate a chunk to the taxman here?
You got rich off the back this states resources. If you’re not prepared to pay for those resources, you’re just a thief.
What the sh** are you talking about?!!
I think you’re having a different conversation …
You don’t know what taxes actually are, do you.
No of course not.
To be honest my posts have demonstrated a far superior knowledge of taxation systems than anything you have spouted here.
Oh you *do* know what taxes are? You’ll be able to understand my last post then. If you don’t want to pay tax and take steps to avoid it, you are a thief.
If your wages are earned within the state and you do not pay tax on them then yes I agree. Morally questionable but legally perfectly acceptable.
MOL, is not doing this.
Anyone leaving to earn money abroad is not doing this.
People leaving to avoid tax are not leaving to avoid paying tax? So if O’Leary leaves, he’ll take his company with him? So you forsee a loaf of businesses magically finding new markets if CEOs have to take home a little less money on their massive salaries?
Yep, yiz got yiz wires crossed me thinks….
lol @ new fresh blood having the life sucked out of him by habitual troll
I’m not new and you’re constant stalking and trolling of me actually makes me feel special. Happy Tuesday.
Psst, he was talking to me!!
No I was talking to him.
@ Daddy
That’s how the troll works – he’s sitting there at his desk jockey dead end call centre job wondering, well will I play with myself today, or will I play with some online commentator – we’re all wise to him here at this stage so don’t get involved!
I’m trying to decide if Moyest is really that self-unaware, or if it is just another part of his shtick.
Daddy, the guy above is a creepy shut in who says really inappropriate things to women. We all worked him out a while ago. Most ignore him. That’s my advice to you.
Good man, Rob. Can’t come up with.a defence for spreading propaganda so you get personal. HQ will be delighted with you.
oops it’s getting angry now – watch out Rob
i’ve seen this phase before – this is trollbot v2.0 level 1.1g
next phase is when it starts going on about how good looking it is or that it has a girlfriend,
And I thought we were friends. :(
So let me get this straight, the above conversation is all about MoL and his comments. First off his comments are correct but have nothing to do with each other. Why do Luas drivers deserve more money? Is it because the people running the company have it profitable while paying the drivers good, sorry great wages? They company owes it’s employees nothing expect the agreed wages. They have no right to think the deserve some of the profit. And MoL second comment is also correct. If your at the top of your profession earning say €200,000 and a “super” tax comes in, why would you stay when clearly your brilliant at what you do and can get a job somewhere else. Hence taking your expertise out of our economy.
+1
True!
Not all rich persons are greedy tax dodging creeps like [REDACTED]
Spot on
I think it’s quite an interesting juxtaposition of seemingly contradictory statements by a business leader.
But then I’d suspect nothing else of self-involved, driven, single-focus, brute force business types.
At the end of the guy this is just some guy’s opinion. Like any gobdaw down in the pub. Big deal.
What is interesting is the inordinate amount of media coverage it’s getting.
That would have made a more insightful cartoon/piece of political commentary.
Really. Would it. Giving this a B- so, are you.
No probably a D, I’ve seen Mick’s other work and some of it is of a much higher standard. Sorry Mick.
It’s not just ‘some guy’s’ opinion. It’s the opinion of someone who would be directly afffected by the taxes in question. So it’s valid.
I didn’t say his opinion wasn’t valid.
I said it was pertaining to one specific personal set of circumstances and view on things – so I actually said the same as what you, asshat, accused me of not saying.
Call yourself an editor? You’re a worse troll than that moyest chap, at least he’s good at being nasty. You’re just an annoying silly little fag-end.
Allow me to quote your own words.
You said “At the end of the guy this is just some guy’s opinion. Like any gobdaw down in the pub. Big deal. ”
Which pretty much says his opinion isn’t valid.
So no, His opinion is not just like any gobdaw’s opinion down the pub. His is informed by actually being one of the people in question, rather than just a gobsaw down the pub.
If you somehow meant to bash the keys in the right order to convey this point, then I’m afraid you are way beyond the help of any editor.
ps nice little adhominium there at the end, learnt that from the boy moyes?
Nobody needs my help working out that you’re just a contrarIan little troll, lad.
haha – good answer but wrong.
Never mind, at least you tried.
I’ve no idea why people are angry over this. It’s a very common refrain, that if you tax the rich they’ll leave. Spectacularly tasteless to rub the powerlessness of the lower rungs in society in their faces, particularly after the Panama Papers seem to indicate that the business of the super-rich is to drive the world economy to stagnation – hm, maybe the question answers itself. it doesn’t help that there seem to be people who think that a low-cost airline is a perfect model for running a country.
O Leary is a horrible human being
Good work Mick.
I think you struck a nerve.
Nurses pay is reduced and we have a shortage of nurses and can’t get entice them home from the NHS or Australia – but we’re bankrupt! So obvs nothing we can do and hospital overcrowding and general health chaos is just par for the course.
Under NO circumstances can we risk losing even one quadrillionaire though.
If MOL decided to move abroad, that would be few million euros less in tax take each year, equivalent to about a dozen nurses.
So, yes.
Where’d you get that from?
Yup. Which is why residency tourism needs to be tackled. We’ve already allowed a ballooning of the insanely wealthy class, we need to start drawing back on it, as a continent/world. It wasn’t communism we were living under when 70% and 90% tax bands existed, even though that’s been scrubbed from memory.
We didn’t always live under an oligarchy who’s interests trumped everyone else’s, we’ve gone backwards.
“It wasn’t communism we were living under when 70% and 90% tax bands existed, even though that’s been scrubbed from memory.”
– are you saying that we should go back to the glory days of the 70s and 80s??
If we were to increase taxes on the wealthy too much, we would killing the goose that lays the golden eggs – witness France’s recent flirtation with a tax on the super-rich; they all just left.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/france-drops-75percent-supertax
Yes, 90% tax bands were the reason the Irish economy was in the tank during the 70s and 80s. As always, the only selling point propagandists have to persuade us to accept the rigged economy of today is fear.
Good man – disregard the rest of my point.
I didn’t. That was the fear part of mentioned.
France repealing the super-tax wasn’t based on ‘fear’; it was based on diminishing marginal returns.
You can cut the hatred of anyone with a bit of talent for business and success in here with a knife.
Spot on
:0)
Get a grip rotide. Having qualms about the accumulation of wealth equal to many hundreds of times what you could spend in a lifetime isn’t class envy. Life is getting tougher for people on the bottom and middle, and the people at the top have governments by the scruff of the neck and are getting richer. Fair reward is fair reward, but to be taxed on your 40 millionth euro at the same rate as your 40 thousandth is wrong, paying less tax on unearned income than you do on earned income is wrong, earning a thousand times your company’s average wage is ridiculous.
When people argued that maybe the aristocracy shouldn’t continue to control all the land and all the laws and all the people they weren’t jealous of their opulence, they wanted society to be made fairer and more balanced.
+ Several
ahjazis you sound like a first your student expousing the values of communism.
Do you wish there to be a cap on what one person can accumulate?
If so, welcome to step one of killing business advancement and ingenuity.
cr** sorry, didn’t read that.
I’m on board with increasing the number of tax bands, gradual increasing of liability up the scale, which would reduce the taxation for the majority of the middle and increase the liability in line with the wealth. Proportionally fairer taxation.
“you sound like a first your student expousing the values of communism.”
Personal attack.
“Do you wish there to be a cap on what one person can accumulate?”
Irrelevant strawman meant to distract. Nowhere in his post was a call to cap earnings. Please be less dishonest.
The irony of moyest complaining about personal attacks :)
First year? Junior infants I thought.
To be fair to ahjaysiz though at least he sounds like a genuine leftie of principle who believes in stuff and not some nasty little bell end with nothing better to do than insult people all day
You sound like you have trouble with reading comprehension and the concept of nuance.
No, no cap, just progressive taxation – like what pertained before the neoliberal age began in the 70’s really, I’m not advocating anything that hasn’t been done before.
So what you’re saying is you believe in a corporate fascist state akin to 1984 or something? Is that right? Would you a party member now or a prole or what? Since we’re doing black and white, like
We have progressive taxation on income – what’s your point?
we have a very progressive taxation system in terms of the effective total rate paid by each person rising alongside their income (on top of tax credits, standard rate and higher rate bands; exemptions and four bands of USC; tax free thresholds on CGT/CAT etc)
Beyond about 40k it’s a flat rate, that’s very limited form of progression.
In the 70’s the top rate on income in Britain was 75%, in the 50’s in the US it was 90%
Hardly communism when this was the west in the middle of the cold war.
It’s only since Thatcher, Reagan and neoliberalism that these sound outlandish, they were pretty bloody common not so long ago. You know, when people could buy houses and were assured of good pensions and one person in a couple could not work at all. Because income equality was lower, we all did better.
“one person in a couple could not work at all”
Hmm, pretty sure you’re opening up some gender inequality and female social mobility issues here. Wasn’t necessarily a better time from that perspective.
By the way, it is the neoliberal age of globalisation that has seen global absolute poverty levels fall through the floor. Have a think about that.
Well ahjaysiz surely you are familiar with the argument that as the progressive bands were made less draconian at the higher ends, net tax take increased?
As for your point about buying taxes I have been told by an older generation that hardly anyone could afford to buy a house in the 80s as while prices were lower relative to income, finance was excessive in terms of interest rates.
We now have greater competition with the provision of financial products, and accordingly a less stable fiscal framework, but if from you are saying the 70s were halcyon days in Britain’s economy, then why did they need an IMF bailout?
Also, rampant tax evasion and the black economy were justified or apologised for by much of the population in the 70s/80s due to the horrifically high level of both tax and interest rates
Oops, I was overharsh, didn’t see your qualifier after.
Paying CEO’s 14 million a year doesn’t advance business or innovation – it’s money that could be spent on research, development, etc. spent on one man instead. If progressively ramping-up taxation made increasingly otherworldy salaries less attractive there’s more cash to innovate, pay the workers more, which increases demand, which grows companies, etc, etc, etc.
I’ve accepted jobs at a loss in income before – because I like to work, was drawn to the project, not the pay packet. I think passion is something that makes leaders, not their bank balance. Especially after a certain amount because quite simply there’s only so much money you can actually spend.
Giving me 100 billion euro in the morning will not improve the economy and living standards, distributing it among a million people will.
to be taxed on your 40 millionth euro at the same rate as your 40 thousandth is wrong
There would be MANY people that would argue this point.
As to the ridiculous aristocracy argument, MOL wasn’t born into his millions, he earned them.
Not MOL in particular, the oligarchic class that’s developed, the one’s with the ear of the governments the ones who’ve gotten richer as the world got poorer during the economic crisis. The ones who buy American elections. The ones our government won’t touch.
What is a fair way to index tax to earnings Ahjaysiz?
Well said ahjayzis..
There’s someone here to hate everyone. Someone made a snarky comment about the nun who died in the earthquake this morning, for God’s sake.
Brilliant again Mick.
Yes Mick, please repeat my worthless banal prejudices and preconceived ugly nihilism back to me – that’s what I live for.
It is juvenile and overly simplistic. Lusa drivers are striking and holding the capital to ransom if not paid more, MO’L will leave leave if he is excessively taxed.
Right, so MOL is holding the country to ransom by threatening to take the money we need to pay teachers and nurses elsewhere.
What’s particularly amusing is when the most knobbly-ended trolls try and call each other out ;)
You’re very boring to be honest about it. Every thread is ruined with your cattiness.
Says random commentator I’ve never heard of.
But he’s not holding the country to ransom. If Ryanair were to re-locate their base abroad, the country would carry on without much problems. He is merely warning that other companies will probably do the same. Then we’d feel it. He has no control whatsoever over what the likes of Google, Microsoft etc do, he is only reminding us why they ever came here in the first place.
‘Keep giving us discounts for using your resources or we’ll go elsewhere’ is clearly holding us to ransom if striking is.
We should be proud to pay taxes, we should take pride in the efficiency of our state mechanisms to provide a service for which they were intended, we should be proud that the state protects the citizens from the rapacious nature of the speculator and criminal financial class – I am currently not proud.
I like M O’Leary, he has balls, he is not a politician or a social worker, but like us all, he has a social responsibility to those he shares the country with
He has in his male genitalia.
He has no more or no less such “social responsibility” than anyone else and even though he is not my cup of Lapsang Souchong he is reported to be paying a lot of tax in this country, so in fact he may be contributing a lot more than most.
we are in agreement then.
I’ve listened to interviews with O’Leary before.. he’d charge his mother for taking a p*ss on his planes if he could. He was on about people standing up too on his planes, to fit more in of course.. he also thinks a co-pilot is unnecessary. A race to the bottom, with max profits is all Michael is about. Safety is only a nuisance, and interference in maximising profits it seems.
Whatever else you can say about MOL, he certainly knows how to get loads of publicity for free.
Yes, how dare this world-class business leader have an opinion about how to deliver more value to his shareholders? I mean, how DARE he!
* vigrously fan’s self and clutches pearls, anxiously
Don’t mention the duty of a director to provide wealth to shareholders in here.
While it is the primary objective, people here freak out over the words wealth and shareholders
Where do they actually think the tax revenue comes from?
I often wonder on this as I sip my Dom Perignon
Calm down dear.
All little nuggets of entertaining shock factor free publicity.
And the safest airline too.
“Calm down dear.”
I hope your mother gives you a clip ’round the ear when you talk to her like that..
Gotta say, Broadsheet is the place to be if you wanna see aul fellas getting thick and flicking elastics at each other.
I blame Hitler.
Thats brilliant Mick!
Michael O Leary has this clickbait era sussed. He knows well that any publicity is good publicity for him and so he will give his opinion on anything he can come up with an opinion on. He probably doesn’t believe half the stuff he says but he know that if he annoys people all the grumps and reactionaries on various websites will kick off, just as he wants them to and before you know it he will be on Joe Duffy, getting free airtime and free publicity.
Rotide – “You can cut the hatred of anyone with a bit of talent for business and success in here with a knife.”
I agree with this. While not approaching Rabble levels of anti-business sentiment, the views expressed on Broadsheet are misanthropic and begrudging. It’s not just the rich or the successful businessman that gets the barbs. I feel that there’s a snide air directed at the average middle class person. You know the type – the “normal” people. The ones who don’t go protesting, who don’t have a Twitter echo chamber of perpetually outraged peers, the unhip, the mass-goers, the ones who play golf etc. You won’t see them in the Irish Times Saturday magazine or hanging out in Stoneybatter, Smithfield. They’re the boring suburbanites or worse, those who live in Meath, Kildare, Laois and commute to work.
For evidence check out Tish Mahoney’s vicious dig “Are you one of those purple shirt yellow tie Ford Mondeo / Opel Insignia industrial estate communter belt middle manager types who think MOL represents you?”
which runs down
– Men in suits.
– Men who drove ordinary cars.
– People who can’t afford to live near work so have a long commute
– People who have risen to manager level in their employment.
+1
Moral of the story.
Succeed at your peril.
That’s not the moral of the story at all.
Success is great… but wealth is concentrated too much in the hands of a few at the detriment of the middle class your man above you refers to.
whereas you are a ray of sunshine
and definitely not being eaten alive by hate and inadquacy
oh no
not you.
Haha
or an expanding waistline
Or a dull job
Or terrible sex life
Or not having any friends
Oh no
So in conclusion: Michael O’Leary should love paying taxes and never try to legally reduce or minimize his bill because that’s immoral and wrong.
But I want my USC cut, I grudgingly pay that progressive property tax and I’m not paying water charges. Because reasons.
Seems like everyone has a version of the ‘one rule for the rich, one rule for the rest of us’.
That’s not it at all really. Read it again. Slowly.
I’d say poor Mr O’Leary is sweatin’ to pay the bills each month and pay for health care for himself and his family and pay for long-term care and therapy for sick or disabled relatives and meet the mortgage payments and eke out the petrol for the car and scrape a cents and half-cents together for a school trip. I’d say austerity hit him hard, so groaning under the USC and the water charges and all the cuts is totally equivalent to him casting his eye abroad at the thought of a silly populist tax increase for the wealthy. The law in all its majesty insists that the rich and the poor alike pay taxes on their yachts! And their stud farms! The injustice of it!
Everyone can come up with excuses why they personally shouldn’t pay tax and don’t see the hypocrisy.
You could vote for parties who claim they could fix all those problems above but they don’t seem to want to go into government..
Yes, that’s right, that’s all an excuse to not pay taxes, not actual stuff that actually happens being reframed as people looking for excuses to not pay taxes as opposed to typical everyday injustice and inequality.
you’re comments are really stupid in my opinion
@Harry Molloy
What does it feel like when somebody tells you you are stupid?
@Harry Molloy – show your work.
Whiney irrelevant ad hominem nonsense
That’s, like, your opinion, man.
The point he’s making Nigel is that you’re better than that
+1 KFC
Notice how when people can’t actually nail MOL for being a criminal and straight out avoiding tax, they switch the narrative to ‘the super rich’ in general.
This page is confusing. So much emotion going on under the words. It’s hard to read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeaCjyxrgGY