This afternoon.

Outside Leinster House and outside Buswells Hotel on Molesworth Street, Dublin 2.

Members of the pro-life White Flag Movement group, including Tim Jackson from Co Donegal (first and second pic), who has been on hunger strike for ten days.

Mr Jackson is calling for the all-party Oireachtas committee on abortion to watch a “pictorial representation video of an abortion”, as part of their discussions.

And members of the Abortion Rights Campaign, dressed in Victorian clothing outside Buswells Hotel, after the group held a press conference (third and fourth pic).

The ARC’s annual March for Choice takes place on Saturday.

Yesterday: Nine Months

Rollingnews

 

136 thoughts on “It Starts Here

  1. TheRealJane

    Tim Jackson can’t possibly think it’s logical to kill himself to protest killing? Come on Tim, think it through.

    1. Daisy Chainsaw

      He’was never doing it to the death, the lazy lightweight. https://www.buzz.ie/news/theres-man-hunger-strike-outside-dail-254484
      he “just isn’t sure” how long he intends to continue the strike action. He released a statement which said it won’t be until “the point of death”.

      “I will just have to gauge how long I remain on hunger strike.

      And now the phony had jacked it in. http://www.highlandradio.com/2017/09/27/tim-jackson-ends-ten-day-protest-outsdie-government-buildings/

          1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

            I’d murder a box of Celebrations now. Going slightly off point.
            I have to cycle home so am very downbeat right now.

          2. Daisy Chainsaw

            Dunnes were selling tins of sweets 2 for a tenner the other week. Celebrations and Heroes are the only ones worth getting, imo.

  2. Daisy Chainsaw

    Tim Jackson has no more been on hunger strike as I have! He sits outside the Dail from time to time and in the evening goes to stay at a friend’s house. If he had actually had no food and only water for the last 10 days, he’d have lost 20 lbs by now, but looks no different, in fact he looks like he’s been enjoying a hearty dinner every evening. He’s a nasty little blackmailer – “Watch a video or I’ll (pretend to) self harm”. The irony is the video was made by Anthony Levatino, a man who has the blood of several hundred preborn children on his hands. If he hadn’t “repented”, he’d probably have been shot in a terrorist attack on his clinic, but this particular murderer gets to go on paid antichoice jollies around the world, including Ireland where he spoke on behalf of women “hurt by abortion” at the Citizen’s assembly.

      1. Liggy

        It’s weird and creepy wanting someone to watch the video of a termination. Weirder still trying to blackmail them into it with lies about starving yourself.
        Weird, creepy and invasive.
        Thank god, he is not snooping that low.
        Oh….

    1. Zuppy International

      Comment pointing out the double standards of the Broadsheet moderation policy is deleted.

      This is level of integrity we can expect from the poodle-dootie-doos.

      1. bad@memes

        I was almost driven to pointing out the double standards meself… but then I thought…
        I’ve been pointing out the double standards for ages….

        Nobody cares.
        It doesn’t matter.

  3. Christiana

    “Sorry Tim Jackson (oooh!) I ate your meee-eal”
    I’ll show myself out…..
    He’s only skipping lunch anyway, the big eejit.

        1. m50 rick

          Exactly! Like all men involved in both sides. Particularly the choice campaign. Accomplished friend zoners!

  4. Charger Salmons

    It’s utterly extraordinary that the people of the island of Ireland are still debating abortion laws that were passed in England,Wales and Scotland 50 YEARS AGO.
    Half a century,ffs.
    And every day there are women travelling to the UK for help,counselling and procedures that their own elected representatives deny them.
    A national shame.

    1. realPolithicks

      “And every day there are women travelling to the UK for help,counselling and procedures that their own elected representatives deny them.”

      Shush…shush…..ssshhhuuussshhh…….

    2. Brian Cowen

      Ireland? It was illegal to be gay in 1994 in Ireland. In the year 2000 you could have been put in prison for getting pregnant out of wedlock in Ireland. Not to mention that your child would be taken from you and sold to the highest bidder. This bastion of progressive laws where you can still to this day be put in a mental home for having a winky time. Shocking really.

      1. Nice Anne1

        If you know of ANYONE, ANYONE killing children. Please contact the guards and social services as soon as possible. Don’t go on the internet talking about it, report it!

    3. Milo

      You love the shame. Shame shame. Speak for yourself. I’m not ashamed of my country. Just want to make it better. People like you trade off shame for influence. Shame on you.

      1. Milo

        You’re not going to waste an opportunity to spread your bigotry are you? Wouldn’t you be better served helping people understand why women should have bodily autonomy?

          1. Milo

            No reason whatsoever. But to use the referendum as a way of legitimising bigotry against catholics is cheap and nasty.

        1. Liggy

          Oh I like this game….

          Wouldn’t you be better served helping people understand why men should have bodily autonomy?

    1. Carol C.

      It is backwards on purpose… because it is backwards we are going. Hence the Time Travellers for Choice concept (above pictures).

        1. Nice Anne1

          newsjustin – if you know anyone murdering infants, children, adults, ANYONE, you must report them as soon as possible so they can be prevented from doing it any more.

          1. newsjustin

            I don’t. I’m saying we need to move forward to infanticide, the logic next step after embracing abortion, as it’s not Victoria times anymore. It’s 2017 like. We have smartphones and everything.

          2. Nice Anne1

            Irish and NI women have had the opportunity to have abortions in the UK since 1967.

            Since 1986, thanks to increased sexual education, increased access to contraception and the availability of the morning after pill, that rate is steadily going down.

            The average of under 1s murdered in the UK has stayed at an average of 10 since 2002. If there was a correlation as you suggest, these figures would have dramatically increased or decreased in line with the averages.
            Source:https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#victims

            The pattern in the US is the same for the same year. From 2002, the average has been maintained at 56 infanticides annually.
            https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/infant-homicide/

      1. Milo

        You’re not going to waste an opportunity to spread your bigotry are you? Wouldn’t you be better served helping people understand why women should have bodily autonomy?

        1. Daisy Chainsaw

          There are others doing that. I’m on bothering godbotherer duty today. Why hasn’t your all powerful invisible sky fairy smote/smited/smitten me yet? Or is he too busy on a killing spree in the Carribbean and the Middle East to give a toss?

          1. Milo

            At least you have the honesty to admit what you are. Usually that kind of stuff isn’t tolerated on here when its aimed at non-catholic groups. Funny that its ok when its catholics. At best its just bigotry, at worst its incitement. Either way its disgusting.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            Milo
            September 27, 2017 at 5:36 pm
            Thanks Brother. It gets tiresome when the hunger for offence is so huge.

          3. Milo

            Dont confuse the referendum with a free pass to practice bigotry against Catholics. It would be like using an ISIS bomb to have a go at Muslims. And surely you wouldn’t condone that.

          4. Anne1

            Is the invisible sky-fairy a specifically Catholic deity?

            Is referring to a Catholic deity as a I S K as bad as bombing people?

            The depth of the philosophical debate around here is mighty.

        2. MoyestWithExcitement

          Milo
          September 27, 2017 at 5:36 pm
          Thanks Brother. It gets tiresome when the hunger for offence is so huge.
          ——————————————–
          Milo
          September 27, 2017 at 5:18 pm
          You’re not going to waste an opportunity to spread your bigotry are you?
          ———————————————

          Mate. Stop.

    1. Andyourpointiswhatexactly?

      Is anybody undecided? It’d be weird not to have even thought about it.
      I’ve changed my mind about it. Life has made me more liberal.
      There’s always one, though, I guess.

      1. Brother Barnabas

        Well, ok, maybe not ‘undecided’ but there are (I’m guessing) quite a lot of people who are open to persuasion – like in the marriage equality ref. But if, for example, I was pro-life but with some doubts, the “we need to get with the times… it’s like, so, Victorian” might pi$$ me off rather than convince me. And if I was the other way, the Ave Maria thing would annoy me.

        1. pedeyw

          I seem to recall you making similar statements about the marriage equality ref. It might not have been you, but someone on here did.

          1. Brother Barnabas

            You recall reading a similar comment about an entirely different issue. So you assume it was me?

            OK

    2. MoyestWithExcitement

      I reckon neither should bother trying to change minds, certainly not on any sort of ‘mass advertising’ kind of level. A lot of the repeal arguments, which I obviously endorse, will do nothing for an average Joe who believes a human life is taken by an abortion. If someone thinks a baby is being murdered, ‘bodily autonomy’ will do nothing for them. I would hope that they’d focus more on mobilising the people that will vote for it, which they probably already are.

      1. Brother Barnabas

        Yes, ok.

        But there’s a sound scientific rebuttal to the “IT”S BABY KILLING” hysteria, which could calmly and reasonably help some people round to the other way of thinking. I’d prefer to see more of that.

        Voter turnout is going to me a massive factor, though. The worry (for me) is that the anti-choice camp will be more committed.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          “But there’s a sound scientific rebuttal to the “IT”S BABY KILLING” hysteria”

          There absolutely is but the ‘baby killing’ line is an emotional one, not a scientific one. They won’t be swayed with a scientific rebuttal. That’s not how most humans work, in fairness. We’re not the rational logic machines we think we are. A lot of our opinions are feelings. Surely you’ve seen it yourself when someone has a position on something, is shown contrary evidence, acknowledges it but doesn’t change their stance. Maybe you can change minds of people in private conversations when nobody else is watching but that’s obviously an unrealistic strategy for a campaign. It’ll be all down to turnout. I think it’ll get more people “home to vote” than the marriage referendum. I’d be confident it would pass by a large margin. Young people are wee wee’d off these days.

          1. A snowflake's chance in hell

            I agree with you moyest

            I think the argument should be fought on the basic premise that the anti crowd are an anti woman crowd. This is the kind of strategy that won the gay marriage referendum.

      2. Daisy Chainsaw

        Here’s women and girls talking about how the 8th amendment affects them. Even women who have no notion of ever having an abortion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P55gfs1Xos

        Do you know a pregnant woman has no right to refuse any treatment her gyno reccommends or demands. She’ll be dragged before the courts under the 8th amendment to “vindicate the right to life of the unborn”. She’s litterally just a vessel.

        1. MoyestWithExcitement

          “Do you know a pregnant woman has no right to refuse any treatment her gyno reccommends or demands.”

          I did not. THAT is an angle that could change minds. It mightn’t change the position of someone who truly believes that’s a fully realised human being inside the womb but people like my parents who are “uncomfortable”, we’ll say, with the idea might well be swayed with that.

        2. Cian

          Daisy, I’m really interested in your statement “Do you know a pregnant woman has no right to refuse any treatment her gyno recommends or demands.”

          I think, as Moyest says, that it could be a game changer.

          Can you back this statement up? Or does it need to be reworded for accuracy?
          “a pregnant woman has no right to refuse any treatment her gyno demands when not having the treatment could affect their foetus.”

    3. Harry Molloy

      +1

      there’s plenty of people who could be swayed either way but the campaigns either end are quite polarizing and do little to appeal to peoples doubts

      1. Cian

        It will be like Clinton v Trump. Both sides have a good proportion of decided votes already. There is a huge undecided middle-ground that will vote for whichever side is least obnoxious. (or not vote at all)

    4. Milo

      Most of the campaigners are focused making themselves look good to their already converted friends. Or they are using the referendum to settle scores with their ideological enemies, not to convert opinion or help people decide. Waste of time, money and ink.

      1. Liggy

        Really, ever single one of us? How do you know? Was there a survey I was not asked to take part in?

        There I was thinking I was only looking for the women of Ireland not to have to take a boat or a plane to another country to secure a termination. To not have the trauma of travel added to what, for some was an already traumatic pregnancy.

        Now I find I had this whole other agenda I had no idea about. HOW exciting!!

        Who are my ideological enemies so I can recognise them when I see them? So excited to make a whole bunch of new frenimies.

          1. Liggy

            Oh sweetie, I am much to excited to read properly!

            There is this whole world going on I had no idea about – surveys of campaigners, secret agendas in my head and all these frenemies to catch up with.

            Please tell me more about how you arrived at these sweeping generalisations oh randommer on the internet.

          1. MoyestWithExcitement

            You accused someone of “persecuting” another poster “for his beliefs” and said he was a “fascist” after he talked about the behaviour of a racist but do go on accusing OTHER people of looking to be offended. :D Amazing.

          2. MoyestWithExcitement

            Milo
            September 27, 2017 at 3:25 pm
            Yes, lets chart his descent, compile a file and then persecute like the self righteous, fascist liberal judge and jury that we are.
            ————————-

            There ya go, kid. That was only today as well. :D

          3. Milo

            Read the sentence before that you weasel. I was quoting your mate justsayin as you and him were plotting to take clampers out.

    1. TheRealJane

      So in other words, not pro choice, pro bullying women into what you consider seemly behavior and promising to reward so-called “ladies” if they appeal to you.

  5. Liggy

    LEAVE TIM ALONE!!

    Thanks Tim not starving or thin. On the strength of your campaign, many people have been donating the price of their favorite lunch or take away to this pro-choice group. You have done them a power of good, keep up the good work. (and the lunchtime chicken burgers, no-one will tell a soul honest injun)

    https://www.facebook.com/abortionrightscampaign/posts/1213690455443393

    From their facebook page:

    On the 23rd of September, the A Rights Campaign posted:
    ·
    WOW! Since the beginning of the infamous ‘hunger strike’ we have received over €3000 in donations! Our supporters are absolutely incredible! We love that so many people have turned this ridiculous stunt in to something so positive for the pro-choice movement by donating their lunch and take away money.
    This money will go such a long way towards our stigma busting and educational work as well as covering some of the 6th Annual March for Choice 30th Sept costs! If you’d like to make a donation you can do so here: http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/donate

    You are doing a power of good Tim — you keep rocking on!

  6. edalicious

    Yer man Tim has the look of a lad who only got into the whole Pro-Life thing to maybe impress a girl but the whole thing got drastically and hilariously out of hand.

    Also, heart surgery is fairly gory and not particularly something I want to watch but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think it should be allowed to happen.

  7. Jake38

    Brief question. Which pro-choice group is likely to be the most efficient/effective to donate money to? Any thoughts?

  8. badatmemes

    ‘Politics are prior to
    The vagaries of science.
    She left because she understood
    The value of defiance’

    Name that song.
    **************************
    .ʇɐɥʇ uıʇɔǝdxǝ ʇ,uǝɹǝʍ noʎ
    ˙ıʇʇılod ıʇʇıɹɔs ʎq , lɹıg ʇsǝʇǝǝʍs,
    :ɹǝʍsuɐ

    1. badatmemes

      I cant find it on YouTube meself.
      Yiz are on yer own

      It’s a good tune.
      I bought the 12”, then I bought the album… they can go and f…

      1. badatmemes

        Hang on…
        It’s easy…

        Search YouTube for ‘Sweetest Girl Scritti Politti (German 7” Version)’

        Sorry Marcel, it’s in English.
        It’s exactly the same as the British 12”.

        Y’know yerself.

  9. badatmemes

    Can I apologise in advance?
    Sometimes I use sarcasm. Please
    My sole aim is to ridicule those who think they think they are effective, despite their not being affected.

    I might get some subsersive past Moderation.
    I might not.

    I’m still on your side, always.

  10. badatmemes

    My daughter showed me her Junior Cert results last week.
    The only subject she failed was Religion.
    Her best result was in Science.

    Good parenting.
    I am SO proud of her.

    – You better believe it, baby!

    1. badatmemes

      I mean c’mon…
      You have to be pretty smart to fail Religion at 15yrs of age.
      She’s 16 now.

      Still smart, incredibly pretty… like UNBELIEVABLE…
      I have proof but it would be remiss of me to publish it.

    1. badatmemes

      My 2c worth is that religion has no merit, warrant or justification in this debate.
      It gatecrashed MY referendum which is a Human Rights issue.

      milo, newsjustin and rotide, I hear yiz are all Fascists now.
      Is that Right?

      1. badatmemes

        …also…
        How many of you are men?
        How many of you are ‘single’?
        How many of you …

        It doesn’t matter.
        Everybody knows.

  11. badatmemes

    My apologies rotide.
    I had you on my ‘nutjob’ list.
    I didn’t know there were factions.

    You’re ‘NOT’ religious, is that right?
    I find it hard to keep up.

    Apologies.

  12. Alan

    I am one of the undecided if I had to vote. It has really torn on the subject.
    A woman’s right to choose! Totally can understand the logic of the reasoning. I can understand all the horrifying scenarios where a woman would want or medically need to have one….totally can understand that…..flip the coin…. When is a human a human? When do we protect human rights and when do we receive them.
    Guys I am seriously confused on how I would vote on this one. I would really need to understand what I am voting for.

    Here is where I am at right now –
    I do not think I could consciously vote for something that could kill a baby. Either can I vote for something that does not protect the life of the mother. A mother and child is a symbiotic relationship. You cannot treat either in isolation. This is going to be one of the toughest votes when it comes I will ever make.

    1. TheRealJane

      Be grateful you can’t get pregnant, Alan. Imagine someone doing a herod on your life and health and congratulating themselves on how enlightened they are.

      The eighth amendment does not stop abortion. You know that. All it is good for is the torture and abuse of women. You know, I’d have much more respect for you thinking men, wondering about just what you think about women’s rights, if you acknowledged just how badly pregnant and post natal women are treated in this country. But you’ve no interest in the reality, just in deciding which theory flatters your sense of yourself as a wise judge and moral philosopher.

      1. Cian

        Jane, I’m curious about your comment that how post-natal women are treated badly.
        I’m aware of (many of) the issues that pregnant women face, can you elaborate on the post-natal issues please?

        1. TheRealJane

          Sure, basically there’s no postnatal care. I had a hospital acquired infection and third degree tear. I had two ten minute visits from the public health nurse in the week following my discharge from hospital and nothing since. Literally, nobody has asked once about my welfare.

          My daughter was premature, nobody had asked to see or assess her, I had to call the medical centre repeatedly to get her developmental checks.

          We’re both fine, thankfully, but I’ve good general health, a supportive husband, family and an employer who understands and accepts their legal obligation. Otherwise, who knows? There are women who have new babies and no support system. What happens if they develop pnd? Or, we know that partner violence is strongly associated with times when women are vulnerable, particularly during pregnancy and the postnatal period. Nobody asked.

    2. rotide

      This is a really good example of the coming confusion and misinformation

      You will NOT be voting on legalising abortion.

      You will be voting on whether or not to remove the 8th amendment which gives equal right to life to the unborn as to the mother.

      “The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.”

      We don’t know yet whether we will be voting to remove this or to amend it. Regardless, with this line gone, nothing changes as AFAIK abortion itself is still illegal as no legislation exists to allow it.

      My personal opinion is that this line of text has no place in our constitution and should be legislated for. to allow for abortion. Your opinion may differ, but this is what we will be voting for.

      1. newsjustin

        What you say is entirely true and makes the situation more stark.

        If 40.3.3 is removed from the constitution, there will be no protection for the unborn, aside from what any government deigns to offer via legislation.

        Assuming the government offers sight of the proposed legislation before the referendum ( which they must do to have any chance of a referendum to remove 40.3.3. being passed) the right to life of the unborn will then be the subject of horsetrading and bargain between political parties at election time for decades to come.

  13. Alan

    Herod killed all male children to stop the loss of his throne. Not sure that I get the comparison you tried to make in that sentence.
    I do have a vote and I will try to make the right one. My decision will not be made on what will flatter my ego.
    You need to understand that it will not be just women that will vote on this. So be careful on how you formulate your reasoning. Do not try to isolate people with that kind of attack above. You will just turn people against your position.

    1. TheRealJane

      Do you know, my previous response included a line about how you were bound to say that the ladies should be nice to you or you’d show them what you think of women who don’t flatters your ego, but I thought that might not be fair.

      Alan, the world is full of men who are happy to humour women until they step out of line and say something men don’t want to hear, and the world is full of men who resort to threats when it happens.

      I expect we’ll hear plenty from you guys over the next few months.

      1. Alan

        Sounds like you have been really hurt. Not all men are the same and sincerely wish you well in the future.
        I was just commenting from a point of view of one man.

        1. Liggy

          Hello Alan,
          I am glad you asked the question in the spirit of learning and openness.

          Yes, some of us women are angry. You see, we’ve been listening to anti-choice rhetoric for a long time. We’ve been let down by politicians, the law and the media as we are denied choice over what happens to our own bodies.

          From the x case in 1992, where we were horrified that a raped child was being forced to carry the baby of her attacker and then force-fed when she refused to eat in protest at not being allowed to travel.

          If a man really takes the time to think about what the majority of women want and decides to support them in that, then of course he will be welcomed as an ally.

          However too many promise us support if we are well-behaved, nice, calm and placid. Then we will “deserve” the autonomy we get by virtue of being “good”.

          The problem is we tried the good girl approach and all it got us was:
          Madeline homes
          No access to sexual health advice and contraception
          Separation of nursing mothers and children during incarceration
          Rape seen as a perfectly acceptable part of marriage

          When we got angry, we got:
          The right to be tried by a jury of our peers,
          Better maternity care,
          An approaching equality of pay
          Contraceptives
          The right to marry where once it was denied to some of us

          If men decide as institutions that they know what we should have (which is usually what suits them) without considering what women actually need, this becomes particularly problematic because men are still in the majority of positions to make decisions that impact the autonomy of women.

          In Ireland:
          123 out of 158 TDs are men
          55 out of 108 judges are men
          1458 out of 1594 surgeons are men
          51 out of 54 newspaper editors are men
          44 out of 54 TV producers are men
          Two thirds of all entrepreneurs are men

          Imagine being told that you cannot be treated for cancer because it will impact your sperm count and any potential babies it could make. That is how women feel when they are told the peanut sized collection of cells that make up a fetus (up to 12 weeks) cannot be removed, even to save their life.

          1. rotide

            I think there is a section of the pro-choice movement that are far left idiots who do as much harm to the cause as good. A lot of these are women.

            I’ll vote to repeal. I’ll support the right to choose. I’ll still think these people are idiots. Voting to repeal doesn’t give me the right to think that way. They are two seperate things. Like the gender imbalance in certain walks of life are two seperate things.

          2. Alan

            I get the anger, the hate and resentment of all the wrongs that have been done in the past. Those things are indefensible. I have not experienced it but I am really trying to empathize with it.
            There is a famous quote that I love. I know it says men in it but it was a long time ago and to me now it means us all. I know it also says “Creator” and that is not for everyone. I do like what it is trying to say.
            “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.
            What I am trying to balance in my head is when do we receive those rights. When is a person a person.
            I am so lucky that I have kids that I love to bits along with their mother. One of those is a daughter also. I know I have only a vote but I have a conscience.

  14. Liggy

    You vote is appreciated rotide and I promise sincerely if there is ever a threat to men’s bodily autonomy in Ireland, I will return the vote in kind.

  15. Liggy

    @Alan –
    You don’t have to empathise completely with someone to know what the right thing to do is. Ever been sick, scared, threatened, anxious, fearful of the future orfelt not in control of your life/body? Now you have some empathy with someone who had had a crisis pregnancy.

    Having children and having a termination are not mutually exclusive. A lot of women have done both. I did.

    As for viability – http://www.spensershope.org/chances_for_survival.htm
    This is the fetus viability chart. Despite advances in medicine since the chart was created, a fetus is still not viable outside of the womb after 21 weeks. This would seem to be a sensible time to limit terminations at unless there were extenuating circumstances such as the life of the mother being in danger. After all, if the Mother dies, the fetus dies too. Prioritising saving the Mother may mean she can carry to term another time if she wants to.

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