The Stand-Off



The Stand

Pic: The Irish Times

Thanks Oceanclub

108 thoughts on “The Stand-Off

  1. RuilleBuille

    Waters is a classic bully who throws his toys out of the pram if he is challenged.

    1. Ron Dolan

      He’s an utter legend! I think the No side should have wheeled him out more during this debate.

      He’s a one man Yes vote generator, fair dues to him….


        1. Mourning Ireland

          She appeals to the Generator Hostel G-entrification millennials in Stoneybatter set, so you’re wrong. Yes side has it.

    2. realPolithicks

      I think this is a tactic by the no side, they constantly complain that the debates and discussions they take part in are unfair and biased against them. I believe that after the referendum they will try to claim that the reason they lost is due to this “bias”.

      1. daniel mallon

        There’s a bit more to it than that imo. Waters gets upset because he can’t explain his position without admitting that it’s entirely a matter of Catholic doctrine. The no side has been pushing desperately to make their position seem secular and scientifically/philosophically legitimate, and distinct from Catholic belief.
        They’re aware that if you say ‘This is purely Catholic orthodoxy’ plenty of people will react to that badly, and the same people will be reassured if told there’s some more reasoned/objective justification for the same position.
        At the same time there’s nothing in their position that is scientifically/philosophically legitimate, so they can’t really get into that debate.

        1. Paul

          It’s entirely Catholic doctrine and none of it is scientifically or philosophically legitimate?

          Ok lol, whatever you say.

          I actually think they haven’t been pushing hard enough to separate their position from the church and so some people might be just voting in opposition to the church as one would naturally do these days.

          1. daniel mallon

            Yeah it’s entirely scientifically and philosophically illegitimate.
            Life doesn’t begin at conception, life began once. That’s evolution, the entire basis of biology. Scientifically there is no such thing as a ‘begining of a life’ there’s only organisms individuating. The point at which they are discrete organisms is called viability. Viability is also the point where ‘termination’ means delivery not abortion.
            Whatever you personally believe, scientifically there’s no argument against abortion up to 12 weeks.
            The idea that a blastocyst is in any way shape or form equivalent to an adult human being is scientifically ludicrous, and philosophically is a form of spiritual essentialism, which is discredited since Russell and Popper and Wittgenstein, and has been recognised as logically impossible to demonstrate since Kant.
            There is no legitimate philosophical or scientific route to the belief that a blastocyst is equivalent to an adult human, the only way you can get there is by belief in souls, or by being completely indifferent to any reasoning.
            I did mis-speak tho, it’s not even really Catholic orthodxy, it’s Christian prejudice, the belief doesn’t even originate in the Bible, it was invented in America in the 1800’s to help doctors distinguish themselves from midwives by legally curtailing the midwives ability to carry out abortion.
            The one constant in the history of prolife movements is the insistence on removing women’s autonomy.

    1. Paul

      Yeah she was very good. i did not agree with her at all when she said she didn’t really think abortion was being used as contraception in the UK, in my experience it is and often.

        1. Paul

          No problem, I mean my experience on this planet, when I was living as a human with other humans. Within that experience is what i’m referring to.

          1. Cian

            Wow – comedy gold. I’m not going to stoop to your level.

            I think DeKloot was asking you to share your experience – not to mansplain what experience means,

      1. Daisy Chainsaw

        How many have you had? Are you resident in the UK with a NHS doctor or do you pay several hundred pound a pop for your abortions?

      2. mildred st. meadowlark

        Well Paul, until you clarify what you mean, I think you haven’t much of a leg to stand on. Unless you somehow know from personal experience. And I’m not referring to your wife’s unfortunate experiences, awful as they were.

        And it is beyond insulting to women to suggest that we’d be casually using abortion as a form of contraception. It’s every bit as unpleasant for women to hear as ‘bucket of guts’ was for you. It’s dismissive, it’s callous and its offensive.

        1. Paul

          Well Mildred, no offense but it is of no consequence to anybody whether or not you find my remarks beyond insulting, callous or offensive. What matters is whether or not they are true.

          And as your suggestion that i could only have an opinion on whether or not some people use abortion as contraception if I have a vagina? C’mon, you’re insulting everyone’s intelligence with this attempt at reason.

          1. mildred st. meadowlark

            Well, it’s just some claim by you on the internet that women use abortion as a form of contraception. So clarify your comment – you know from experience, you said, so what experience is that? Explain your comment or it’s it’s just another baseless claim on the internet by some anonymous randomer.

            Because I can tell you from MY experience (you know, as a woman with an actual vagina) that abortion is a last resort for women. And also, if you can’t respect that what you said is offensive to women, then try not to get quite so precious over terms others use.

          2. Nigel

            The phrase is a derogatory one as I’m sure you know. It shouldn’t be. Women fought long and hard to gain access to contraception. They use it for many of the same reasons they go on to have abortions if contraception fails. Those reasons don’t magically become derisory in the interval unless they were already derisory to you.

          3. mildred st. meadowlark

            I think this, in Paul’s own words, sums up his attitude nicely:

            Finally, perhaps in a way she is being trapped by her gender but the alternative is to allow her to un-trap herself by killing another. I personally would prefer to see her trapped for 9 months rather than to see her killing a totally innocent entity.

          4. Starina

            most of us can barely make it to the dentist when we’ve got cavities. why do you think we’d suddenly decide that a trip to the clinic for an abortion is easier than popping a pill or using a condom?!

          5. TheRealJane

            I’m really surprised that people like Paul consider women fit to be parents. Unable to plan, silly, capricious and totally unable to understand cause and effect to the extent that having an abortion is better than using contraception. Preferably late, because it’s so hard to like, decide and doing stuff is hard.

        2. Paul

          Mildred, I am a different Paul, it was me that commented this morning on another thread, not the Paul you are having this discussion with.

          1. mildred st. meadowlark

            How confusing. There’s at least three of you now. I cannot keep up.

  2. Inquistor

    holy smokes! what a reaction. he’s a total boon to the yes side. Good man waters!

    1. Bob

      I don’t much like Waters but Sinead clearly has her own problems.
      Sometimes people form relationships with people who don’t bring out the best in each other.

      People like to look at things in the simplest terms of one good one bad, but two different levels of bad is more often the case.

      1. CoderNerd

        at 13m40s:
        “You’re a k*…… you told me that you wanted to support….”

        In fairness, it could also be a hard edit of the audio track.
        Either way, still laughing.

  3. missred

    “Before he left the studio abruptly” – hmm wondering why this might be? Maybe he forgot his tinfoil hat

  4. Bruce_Wee

    Haaa…hilarious….Why agree to the interview to debate it and then storm out when challenged slightly on his view? Would imagine he only did the interview when Eamon told him he was voting No….Bizarre..great use of bad language in fairness though.

  5. Ultan

    Was he not meant to have left the country after the marriage equality referendum? Not a man of his word it would appear…

    1. Dinny Do Well?

      He didn’t need to. Mullaly’s comments about him resulted in a legal action and he’s retired on the proceeds. Well done, Irish Times.

      Read The Phoenix.

  6. SOQ

    That really made my day. The irony of that man calling anyone else a ducking wallox is beyond funny.

    Howz the old Irexit going there Johnny boy? There is vacant positions within the DUP if you fancy aligning with like minded btw.

  7. Paulus

    From listening on headphones; JW sounds wound up from the start, rapid heavy breathing etc. By the end he’s almost hyperventilating. He’d do well to check this out.

    1. missred

      Dunphy is a no voter too, he gave him quite an easy time of it and Waters still had an aneurysm at his own argument. Mental stuff

      1. well

        Dunphy as a No voter has given John a harder time that most of the allegedly prochoice media

        1. daniel mallon

          I think Dunphy said in the one with Una Mullaly that he doesn’t support abortion, but he’s not a no voter. Maybe I misheard tho

  8. Kolmo

    Holy hell that was funny, but also quite a shocking reaction when he realised his argument failed in it’s basic logic – just lash out, bolleux this, feck that, get your bolleux out of my face was another one..

    1. Paul

      I didn’t see any failure besides him losing it over nothing, his argument stood up or can you tell me where you felt it didn’t?

      1. Repro-choice Bertie

        He spat the dummy because he couldn’t argue against abortion pills without also arguing against the morning after pill (“We can’t legislate against it”, he said) and Dunphy wouldn’t move on from it as quickly as he’d like. I could see where Dunphy was going with it and it could have been an interesting discussion if John had taken a minute to listen.

        1. Paul

          Yeah he did not want to go down that road at all lol. Not sure why though as the logic he uses holds up down it.
          Perhaps he knew it would be a mental leap too big for many and they would immediately discard everything he said after it.

          1. Biguy

            His logic holds, in that he states that you need to know of the unborn before you can abort it? Dunphy’s moot point of morning after pills is misplaced. Waters is correct, it’s contraceptive, not an abortion per se. Not really worth discussing imo also. Dunphy is trying to lead him on the conception issue. Waters possibly dislikes this because he is at pains at the start of the interview to get away from the RCC ideology, which aligns well with his, nay informs it. So what’s this logical trick I’m missing? There is a threshold for abortion: you need to know there is something that you are killing. Waters thinks this is abhorrent. What else is he going to discuss? Wrong to kill, solid no, life begins at conception. But hey, I’m not dogmatic in my beliefs, and we don’t need to be railing against this RCC dogma because that’s all gone now. This is just about saving the little Tom’s and Julia’s. It’s pretty transparent, no?

  9. BobbyJ

    & David Quinn thinks John would make a good president. These lads are completely deluded.

  10. DeKloot

    His mugshot alone triggers rage in me. I hate him and everything he pretty much stands for. So it’s worth it.

    1. Topsy

      You should see a psychologist for your rage issues. However you’ll be able to manage your anger issues when you reach a degree of maturity at 20 or so.

  11. Junkface

    John Waters behaved like a Bell-end and a childish one at that. He stormed out over nothing. Ha ha

  12. Willie Banjo

    Not radio gold but podcast platinum! I love Eamon’s plaintive ‘Don’t go….I’m a no voter!’.

  13. John f

    I like Eamon’s podcast, it offers a lot and covers many topics that mainstream outlets and not go into any detail over.
    In this case, Dunphy did absolutely nothing wrong. Waters was as thin-skinned as a certain Irish billionaire businessman.
    Out of litigation fears, I will say no more.

    1. well

      Thin skinned Irish billionaire? for a moment i thought you meant Declan Ganley but i remembered he is a thin skinned millionaire

  14. painkiller

    Dunphy was conducted the conversation in an unstructured way – he went from talking about the morning after pill to talking about the pill you can order online in the same breath, almost conflating the two. The fact he’d say he’s a no-voter to alleviate Waters was very, very snakey of him when he tells Mullally he’s an undecided.

    I don’t think he lost the argument. The terms weren’t there for an engaging and flowing conversation to continue. It would have been classier of Dunphy to not broadcast the storm-out, if they are friends as he initially said. Waters was in an erratic mood and that didn’t help.

    The no side should bring out Maria Steen every time if they want to avoid a line like “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.” in place of the 8th.

    1. SOQ

      Waters made a complete ass of himself and typified the No campaign right through this campaign. If he accepts that the morning after pill can potentially result in an abortion then he also accepts that it is already legal and that the rights of the unborn change over the duration of the pregnancy.

      1. painkiller

        Yeah, that’s pretty much what got him. Dunphy put him in a tricky spot. I don’t think he is in favour of the morning pill and that is what set him off so he had a choice between alienating himself or being hypocritical. I think he tried some analogy but was cut off and gave up.

        From the RTE debate, I would say Maria Steen speaks to the great many.

        1. Biguy

          I would see it differently, in that Dunphy gets stuck on a logical fallacy: “you believe life begins at conception, so the morning after pill is essentially abortion”. But you can’t abort unless you know there is an unborn. Waters challenges this with his albeit stupid analogy, says it’s not the same, which is accurate any way you look at it.

          But to leave like that. Would wonder about whether he should be in the public sphere at all anymore, those are not the actions of a person in control.

          1. SOQ

            Yes you can. If you take an abortion pill it will abort the fetus irrespective of whiter you know you are pregnant or not.

            No one knows what percentage of morning after pills are actually required but you can be certain some of them are.

          2. painkiller

            I agree with you Biguy.

            I think Waters was somewhat justified. The debate isn’t about the morning after pill as Water says – it’s about the replacing the 8th with the line “Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.”

            Dunphy’s point can be interpreted as somewhat valid and Waters didn’t expect it – he certainly wasn’t prepared. As you say, Waters tried to come back with his analogy, presumably around the uncertainty when the morning after pill was used…but he had Waters seeing red by that point.

            I have a lot of respect for John Waters myself.

            Una Mullally came across surprisingly well – I expected her to be more confrontational and morally outraged based on what her pieces in the Irish Times…

          3. SOQ

            Campaigning against equal marriage while having a string of broken relationships deserves nor gets any respect from people like me, that’s for sure.

  15. Not On Your Nelly

    John is making money being the other guy. He is stuck now. I feel sorry for him. It must be very depressing. All that negativity. It can’t be healthy.

    1. Andrew

      How’s he making money out of it? Maybe he used to; like Kevin Myers, but neither are ever on the radio/telly anymore and both have lost their newspaper columns.
      I never liked John Waters anyway, I thought he was elevated way beyond his station which was provincial newspaper standard. But then Irish journalism seems to make a habit of making names of mediocre people.
      Mulally is no different in that respect.

  16. Ron

    I think this is going to be one of the closest referendum results in the history of referenda

  17. Frill the 8th

    Is there anyone handy with the Photoshop that could turn those greasy strings dangling around Water’s head there inta a comb- over
    Or sum’ting

    Let’s just convert him inta what he is
    A no sider Meme
    Make of official like

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