170 thoughts on “Wednesday’s Papers

    1. scottser

      How did ‘the easiest deal in history’ become the impossible?
      Such a spaffer.
      Still, we can all look forward to drawing a line under the whole sordid affair now, and not waste another jot or tittle of effort on the tans and their xenophobic delusions.

      1. V AKA Frilly Keane

        There was a whole year of spaffing
        Everywhere and at all levels

        In fairness
        From here in the comments section
        To the Whitehouse press room To Downing Street to the set of CBLive
        Like c’mon
        12 months of Spaff

        1. Cú Chulainn

          Most interesting article in the Telegraph no less.. ‘we need better access to the EU say City bosses’. Lower rhs. The dawn of a new reality..

        2. goldenbrown

          V
          don’t forget the FAI in that spaff fest – betcha Delaney’s Exec Lounge debt of -€76 odd Mil is on the light side

          (a belated Happy Xmas/New Year to u and the rest around here btw)

      1. Redundant Proofreaders Society

        Often wondered why Broadsheet publish dire UK tabloids with celebrity / royal family swamp matter and not the newspapers of our EU partners.

        1. Charger Salmons

          Probably for the same reason why so few copies of those newspapers are sold in Ireland.
          No-one is either interested in them or can read them.
          Ireland is fascinated by the royal family, TV shows and EPL footy.
          Always has been always will be.
          Broadsheet is a business not a public service.

          1. scottser

            You have a very naive idea of how the UK media works, spaffer. Its almost like you believe everything you read.

          2. Charger Salmons

            What’s really funny is that the people I never respond to because they’re dull, repetitive and not worth my valuable time are the very ones insisting that everyone on here should ignore me.
            And week in week out they grow demented at their pleas for attention going unrewarded.
            I’m a Venus Fly-Trap far sillypants

      2. Charlie

        Tommy. Are you for real? Surely your jealousy and constant infatuation with everything Irish requires urgent attention. For 2021, may I suggest you seek a life, some fresh air and serious medical attention for your tourettelike obsession.
        In all seriousness, are you lonely?

        1. Cú Chulainn

          Charlie, he lives in a step down/sheltered community in Cork. He disappears when the orderlies confiscate his electronic devices. This is him having a life. Throw him a scrap from time to time. Think of it as your good dead of the day..

          1. Charlie

            I seriously think everyone’s new year resolution should be to ignore every single post he submits. They’re nothing but hatred and those very few posts where he doesn’t have a go are merely to appear balanced.
            New Years resolution folks. It’s also for his own good.

        2. V AKA Frilly Keane

          Stomp all ye like on this

          But as WUMs go
          Charage is up there with the best of them

          And is no where near as nasty, b1tchy, personal, vicious, two-faced, cowardly, flimsy, forgetful or fake as a few other residents here

          I think he’s been one of more honest ones here tbh

      3. Cú Chulainn

        Ah, Salmons.. the City of London bosses – this is the same as no deal for us (60% in value of all UK exports) or an opinion piece by the editor of a tabloid clearly taking the piss ? I wonder which might be a tad more accurate…

      4. ce

        Lets for a minute assume that Brexit is a good economic idea (keeping in mind that the counterfactual is not provable… actually all of this is not provable either way…. but anyway ). There is no way – unless you are taking accounting lessons from China and cooking the books – that the British economy will grow more than a couple of % points greater than the rest of Europe once in a while, especially over the longer term….and that’s the best case scenario, that’s it, that’s what you win – it’s like people choosing between the red version of the black version of an object at Ikea. So many real problems in our countries and world and 4 and a half years of pretending at hard nosed diplomacy

        1. Charger Salmons

          Forget economics for a moment and think about sovereignty.The ability to make your own laws, appoint your own judges, control who comes into your country without intereference from or obedience to others.
          It’s what Ireland fought for a hundred years ago.
          Brexit, to a lesser degree, is not a lot different.
          Most people who voted Brexit expected and accepted there would be a short-term hit to the economy.The idea they were fooled by Tory toffs and interference from foreign agents is risible.
          Long term economic predicitions are not worth the paper they’re written on but anyone who doesn’t think the Greeks will want another bailout and the economic imbalance between Northern and Southern Europe will be levelled any time soon is deluding themselves.
          But most importantly of all Brexit was a chance for people to have their voice heard. Boris understood this but Labour gravely miscalculated in their attempts to reverse the referendum result – they’re currently 162 seats behind the Tories as a result and it’s hard to see them ever regaining an outright majority especially with recent boundary changes.
          I thought the deal Boris negotiated was a reasonably fair one.Big compromises were made on both sides.But it has proved the UK and EU can work together and a strong UK really is in Ireland’s very best interests.

          1. ce

            “The ability to make your own laws, appoint your own judges, control who comes into your country without intereference from or obedience to others.” – The UK had the ability to do all of these inside the EU. The only “interference” was from the European Court… which the UK joined by a democratically endorsed treaty. It’s now left, thanks to a democratic vote.However, outside the EU, the UK will still go along with EU standards, it’s a fantasy to think that it won’t… although there will be plenty of huffing and puffing about it.

            “But most importantly of all Brexit was a chance for people to have their voice heard.” – I fully agree, and fully support the democratic will of the UK electorate, but just because they asked for something doesn’t mean that’s what they’ll get from the people who promised it.

            In terms of long term forecasts – actually it was pretty obvious once that when people started playing with the the figures about who could and could get into the Euro something would go wrong down the line and it did. Will this happen again – possible, and more likely than not. Will another EU crisis large or small effect the UK economy, yes – it will effect the global economy. And again, will the UK economy really function that much better (or worse) than the average of most EU countries one way or another?

            With ‘the deal’ – everybody will argue about whether it was good or not decades to come, and it simply doesn’t matter, it’s a waste of time and energy. The reality is we live in a world with several large blocks of political influence – US, China, Russia, EU, and increasingly India. I don’t like this, but I’m also realist and I’d rather focus on trying to have at least one of those blocks be relatively cooperative (in terms of its constituent parts) and not solely based/focused on militarism. The UK is now in Indonesia territory – big army, lots of trade, but not at the main table anymore. It had a unique position in terms of it alliances with the US, EU, and India (and even Russia to a certain extent, in terms of a strange mutual respect). All of these are now under threat and will at best be significantly weakened.

          2. Charger Salmons

            It’s the 5th largest economy on the planet with 62 trade deals already signed, a FTA with the EU and further treaties with the likes of the USA in the pipeline.
            It attracts more foreign investment than any other country in Europe.
            London is the financial capital of the world.
            Hundreds of thousands of people emigrate there every year because of the opportunities and rewards the UK offers.
            It has a thriving car industry and, as the Oxford vaccine has shown, it is at the forefront of scientific and pharmaceutical development.
            The idea that it is not at the main table is palpable nonsense. This is exactly the kind of dross the Irish media churns out to a receptive audience.

          3. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

            Sovereignty my fenian bottom

            Look at the state of their next in line’s young fella and his missus
            they’re only a season away from Big Brother appearances and Iceland ads

            You’re so funny sometimes Charage
            like Russ Abbot before the hair plugs

          4. Kate

            You are absolutely right Charger. If France opted out , it would be proper order to respect the democratic will of the people instead of wishing them fallure. I accept my fellow Irish have emotional constipation when it comes to UK . Have a wonderful New Year !

          5. ce

            “It’s the 5th largest economy on the planet with 62 trade deals already signed, a FTA with the EU and further treaties with the likes of the USA in the pipeline.”
            – Doesn’t matter, it will follow other peoples rules for all of this. There are plenty of things that

            “It attracts more foreign investment than any other country in Europe.
            London is the financial capital of the world.Hundreds of thousands of people emigrate there every year because of the opportunities and rewards the UK offers.” – Which somewhat ironically is why Brexit happened, ‘the people’ don’t like this and like many other places in the world are tired of the empty rhetoric of ‘globalisation’

            “It has a thriving car industry”… really…

            ‘`as the Oxford vaccine has shown, it is at the forefront of scientific and pharmaceutical development.” – so many countries can claim this kind of thing, that’s the world we live in. The US is still the leader by far in IP and the EU and everybody else could learn a thing or two from them…. look at the computer industry, invented in the UK…. and then taken up to a better level by others, especially the US. That’s the horrible history of UK industrial and academic research. Absolutely brilliant ideas and research, but often inspite of government policy (Tory and Labour) rather than because of, the actual potential is never achieved… I’m not a Brit basher and certainly not when it comes to science and engineering, but even the Russel Group is damaged by Brexit,

            “The idea that it is not at the main table is palpable nonsense. This is exactly the kind of dross the Irish media churns out to a receptive audience.” – maybe, but sadly this time it’s true and it will very gradually come to pass. Russia and China love Brexit, your delude if you think otherwise, they are the surprise winners. The US establishment (Rep and Dem) are deeply concerned, and India will do a reverse East India Company over the next few years.

            “Hundreds of thousands of people emigrate there every year because of the opportunities and rewards the UK offers” – which partly explains the Brexit vote, so that’s going to cause political issues soon enough

          6. Charger Salmons

            Kate – I hope you have a wonderful and prosperous new year too. It’s always nice to read your occasional comments which are grounded in commonsense and fair play without the hysterical and abusive reactions of others.
            There’s one knuckle-dragger on here who responds to every single post I make by writing ” spaff ” presumably because he doesn’t have the intelligence to formulate an educated reply.
            Imagine how sad it must be to wake up in the morning and tell his mammy that he has a busy day ahead writing the word ” spaff ” repeatedly to a total stranger on the internet.It’s hilarious.
            The funniest thing of all are those idiots who say Britain got nothing out of the Brexit deal/is going to hell in a handcart/we’re doomed Captain Mainwaring because they so desperately want it to fail when actually most Leavers are very happy with the outcome and looking forward optimistically to the future.
            Fancy that …

          7. Papi

            Shell be on the no fly zone soon, only imaginary friends in the charger atmosphere.
            Like his wife/mother.
            Off your knees boy.

    2. Charger Salmons

      Brexit deal passes in the House of Commons by a massive majority of 521 to 73.
      A triumph for Boris Johnson.
      People have been underestimating his political skill for his entire career.
      They’ve done it again with Brexit.

    3. Charger Salmons

      News just in – Aldi has announced plans to increase the amount of food and drink it buys from British suppliers by £3.5 billion a year. The retailer is investing £500m in new & upgraded stores, distribution centres and its supply chain in 2021, which will create over 4,000 jobs.
      But I do hope they carry on stocking the stonking 14.5% Aussie Tempranillo I’ve been enjoying over the festive period.
      Marvellous.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Jefferson_MFG/status/1344302395178835983

      1. Tommy Bohan

        Can you answer my question please Mr Salmons, if you do not I shall just keep asking until you do!!!!!!!!

  1. Dr.Fart

    going to take 4 or 5 years to vaccinate everyone in Ireland at the proposed rate announced, and the virus is racing against the roll out at a far far quicker rate. interesting (and unsettling) to see what happens. the earth wants to complete it’s cull, and we aren’t equipped or smart enough (collectively) to outpace it. I predict 75% of the population will contract the virus by the time vaccinations are complete. Martin says it’ll be august, but he’s way off, he’s just plucking that out of thin air.

    1. SOQ

      How can you have a ‘cull’ when 80% don’t even know they have it and it has a 99.7% survival rate?

      And, given that these vaccines do nothing to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection, only mask or prevent the serious symptoms of CoVid-19- what is the point in giving it to non vulnerable groups at all?

      1. Brother Barnabas

        soq, why do you persist in parrotting the same already-disproved points ?

        you made this very same claim a few days ago. alickdouglas responded with a detailed refutation. yet here we go again…

        this + your enthusiastic pro-trump support for unfounded allegations of electoral fraud in US makes it appear that you’re someone with undisclosed affinity and likely agenda, which might explain why people are becoming increasingly intolerant towards you

      2. ReproBertie

        Vaccines don’t always prevent infection but they do prevent the disease from developing. Even the flu vaccine may only reduce the severity of the flu. Non-vulnerable people who are vaccinated can become infected but, in the words of Dr Fauci, they become a dead end for the disease rather than a stepping stone.

        I can’t understand why you have such problems understanding this, unless it’s intentional. Here’s a short video. less than 5 minutes long, that explains how vaccines work.

        https://youtu.be/rb7TVW77ZCs

          1. Brother Barnabas

            this is a cut and paste of same comment posted in Tuesday’s Papers (2020-12-28 23:07). alickdouglas provided an extensive refutation, yet here it is again

            SOQ is either an utter imbecile or a committed zealot

            deserves every bit of the scorn he gets

          2. SOQ

            Alick did not refute what Marcus has said- he merely pointed out his generalised typo. Marcus used the word vaccines when it is pretty obvious he was referring to CoVid-19. He as a GP administers other vaccines in his day to day work so nooo anti vax labels please.

            Alick also states that we are five years away from any real proof of transmission blocking so in the interest of patient safety, Marcus would be negligent to assume anything other than he has.

            https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/12/28/tuesdays-papers-65/#comment-2279514

            He is not the only GP who is thinking this way of course- a family member’s GP told her exactly the same very recently.

          3. millie bobby brownie

            That’s a very, very deliberate misunderstanding of alick’s explanation of how Dr Marcus is incorrect in his assertions.

          4. Brother Barnabas

            “a family member’s GP…”

            a bricklayer once told me that the pyramids werent such a big deal

          5. ReproBertie

            “ Taking a covid vaccine will not stop someone […] from transmitting Covid to others.”

            There’s not enough data to say this with any certainty but we do know tests have shown a reduction in transmission and we know the makers of the vaccines are confident that transmission will be prevented.

            You make the same points and have them countered all the time. Are you hoping nobody will notice?

          6. Fanacht

            The vaccines don’t work, they don’t prevent infection so let’s change the definition and meaning of vaccine to reflect that.

            Also up to 80% of recipients of the COVID vaccines suffer adverse reactions including pain, nausea, bell’s palsy, heart attacks and death so we’ll also need to rebrand those events as positive happenings.

            After all, we’ve successfully changed the meaning of concepts like women, science and murder so these vaccine roll-out issues should not be a problem.

            Oh, and even with these vaccines everybody will still have to wear masks and never see their family and friends ever again.

            It’s for our own good really.

            Tell them that. Insist on it. That way they can’t accuse us of being greedy, uncaring, incompetent, authoritarian ass-hoe

          7. Junkface

            Conspiracy theories, nihilism and total breakdown of reality are far more dangerous than covid 19 in the long term, especially on mental health. You see the same nonsense posted on twitter after any covid 19 vaccine or case number updates from big newspapers accounts. They crawl out of the woodwork every time spouting the same drivel picked up from dodgy websites.

            They are committed zealots, part of the extended Qanon cult, whether they realise it or not. No matter how much proof, quoted scientific reports (peer reviews), or medical reports you show them, they come back days later with the exact same debunked nonsense.

            Remember all of the UK and French teens that were indoctrinated by online ISIS extremism content? This is the same.

          8. Junkface

            “Wait…
            …What?
            There’s now a vaccine against ISIS?
            Sounds like Big Dollar.

            How much for a dozen?”

            @Fanacht. if this is the level of your reading comprehension, then I can see how you would have fallen for badly written, illogical, conspiracy theories. Maybe read the words again, but slowly?

          9. alickdouglas

            Marcus seems to be a concerned and enthusiastic GP but I totally disagree with his tweet here. Then again twitter does not lend itself to nuance, so I’ll happily give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway…
            1) we don’t know what the risk factors are, so we don’t know who might benefit.
            2) I don’t understand his point that a ‘COVID vaccine will not stop someone from getting COVID’. That’s not what the phase III trials have demonstrated: people who got the vaccine were less likely to get COVID (80ish cases in placebo recipients vs 9 ish cases in vaccinees for the Pfizer/Moderna trials). The vaccine might not stop you getting infected, it does appear to stop you getting COVID.
            3) we don’t know what leads to transmission (hence the discussion this morning here re: the imbalance between flu and SARS2), therefore we don’t know what blocks transmission. It appears logical–although very hard to prove either way–that driving down viral replication within a host would lead to less viral shedding and hence less transmission. Presumably by targeting the spike protein we are encouraging the immune system to neutralize virus, hence driving down viral replication. The trial sponsors are measuring this (ah, AZ and J&J anyway I think), but in subsets of all vaccinees, so the statistical significance will be low and it probably won’t be proposed for inclusion on the label any time soon.
            4) Study sponsors are actually obliged to only speak about their products in a manner that is in line with the data they share with, and is approved by the regulator (‘on label’). Personally I’m happy enough with that. It does however mean that company employees, contractors (and indeed, many US-registered physicians) don’t speculate on topics that don’t have statistically significant data to back them up, leaving the field open for less-informed speculation.

          10. Fanacht

            QUICK, CALL THE GUARDS…

            SOMEBODY ON THE INTERNET IS REFUSING TO TAKE JUNKFACE SERIOUSLY!!

            SERIOUSLY!!!

          11. SOQ

            @ Alick

            At the moment, if a GP promoted such as a full on inoculation, they would leave themselves wide open to legal actions if it is not the case. I think that is his basis for stating that only at risk should have it.

            Already there appears to be moves a foot to identify those responsible upon a vaccine injury occurring. While the manufacturers may have indemnity, the administrator of the vaccine can be sued- so the legal eagles are already warming up to chase ambulances.

          12. Fanacht

            Someone tell Mille whatever that I don’t mind her stealing my joke but to steal it and then use it as a reply to the same joke displays a regrettable and disappointing lack of nous

          13. millie bobby brownie

            I sincerely doubt anyone would term your CAPS LOCK RANTING as wit, satire or anything close to a joke.

  2. Charger Salmons

    Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine gets approval this morning in the UK.
    The UK has ordered 100 million jabs, enough for 50 million people to be vaxxed and altogether has 380 million doses of different vaccines ordered.
    It’s also Ireland biggest vaccine order with 3.2 million doses along with 2.2 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine.
    This is a landmark day in the fightback against Covid-19 and couldn’t come at a better time with both countries heading into another full lockdown.
    Definitely worth a marvellous although as mentioned above the rollout of the vaccines and who gets what when is key.
    Those jokers on here who think Ireland will be fully vaxxed by March are delusional.
    We’re in for a further long and difficult six months with very severe economic and health consequences.

    1. Charger Salmons

      The British-made vaccine will become the gold standard during this pandemic.
      It’s cheap, easy to store and logistically much easier to distribute than the Pfizer drug.
      Millions of Irish people will soon be walking around with a small piece of life-saving Blighty coursing through their veins.
      I hope you all show some gratitude for a change for the excellent work done by Boris Johnson in his early support for the creation of the vaccine.
      British ingenuity, resourcefulness and scientific endeavour at its finest
      You’re welcome Ireland.
      Marvellous.
      Heh,etc etc.

      1. Tommy Bohan

        I will ask for a fourth time Mr Salmons!! Why are you living in Ireland if it s so inferior, as you claim, to England? Why cannot you answer a very basic question?

        1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

          Tommy this sounds a lot like ” if you don’t like it, go back to where you came from ”
          just saying

        2. Junkface

          Charger is free to live where he wants and he is free to criticize too. That’s called living in a democratic free country. I don’t agree with everything he says at all, but he is entitled to his opinions. Don’t be Xenophobic.

          1. Papi

            *Don’t be as xenophobic as charger is.

            Fixed that for ya.
            Also, bigoted, homophobic, racist, and very very lonely. And fat.

          2. scottser

            Well, if he has a UK passport he’s pretty much given up the right to live and work freely in Europe.

      2. Joe F

        You’re on very dangerous ground old boy with your predictions. You don’t seem to learn from your way off the mark forecasts the last few months. Also, I don’t hear you commenting on the way higher rate of cases in the UK compared to here. Why is that? Things are bad here but the rate in your good old Blighty is actually a lot higher. Still, do as you do, and ignore all that. Marvelous.

        1. Tommy Bohan

          I do not think he is going to answer you Joe!!!
          And I do not know what to make of this Mr Salmons at all. He is very disrespectful to a lot of people but then he won’t engage when it does not suit him!!
          I have asked him FOUR times why he lives in Ireland yet he keeps going on about how superior England is to Ireland!
          The obvious question is then why are you living here!!
          But he clearly has no answer for this otherwise I would have got it by now!
          Very strange man. He has a lot of “issues” as they would say!!!!

    2. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

      Where are those Oxford AstraZeneca vaccines being manufactured Charage?

      WSJ won’t say, only made at facilities in the country and elsewhere
      here https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-made-by-astrazeneca-oxford-is-approved-by-u-k-11609312200

      Irish Times said a while back that its being imported from Germany and the Netherlands aka the EU
      https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/supply-of-covid-vaccine-doses-held-up-by-manufacturing-delays-1.4430676

      and going at the rate Matt Handycock is promising – it looks like all of the 100 million doses – 50 million of ye, will be jabbed by a vaccine manufactured in the EU – but not yet approved by the EU for themselves
      (anyone’s guess btw, WSJ say Feb at the earliest this crowd say January https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/astrazeneca-oxford-vaccine-eu/ )

      the only stuff I can can find out about UK manufacture is that the trial doses were made in the Oxford Unis own facilities – not sure they would be up to 100 mill

      anyone?

        1. V AKA Frilly Keane

          Not according to the WSJ or the BBC
          Or even AstraZenaca themselves
          Nor is there any mention in that wiki link you stitched in where exactly the product being distributed to the NHS has come from
          Just where it was tested n’ trialed

          We all know the patent pending etc was developed in Oxford with the JV partners
          But where is it being factory mass produced Charage

          According to the WSJ there has been delays in getting UK plants on line
          So it’s being imported

          So I’ll ask you again
          Where are the vials being pictured actually coming from?

          1. Charger Salmons

            V – think of it a bit like Guinness, another great British product, being brewed all over the world.
            AZ has production facilities in the UK, Europe and the USA but you obviously missed this line in the link I provided.
            ” The majority of manufacturing work will be done in the UK.”
            Just think – you could soon have a small piece of Blighty inside you.
            Wahaay !

          2. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

            I’m sure it will be manufactured in the UK
            when they get plants on line

            but where is the current batches being manufactured?

            You’re doing jigs n’ reels there on the Vaccine roll out in the UK by the NHS
            but you don’t or won’t or can’t say where tis after coming in from

        2. Toby

          So is slavery, royal pedophilia, genocide, colonisation and collusion to kill Irish catholics. I don’t see you boasting (publicly) about that?

          1. Papi

            This is the cretin who regretted the death of the Yorkshire ripper, so don’t be surprised at any of his disgusting behaviour.

    3. Charger Salmons

      In fact any reasonable person would think it churlish that when you receive your British Jab you didn’t utter a grateful thanks to BJ.
      Next year in GP surgeries all over Ireland I hope a heartfelt ” thank you Boris for help and support in making this life-saving vaccine available for me ” is issued.
      C’mon Ireland.Time to mature as a nation.We don’t bear any grudges against you.Britannia will always keep an eye open for our rogueish unreliable Irish neighbours.It’s what we do.You can’t help yourselves.

    1. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

      I’m kinda taking an interest in this as well lads
      for a follow up on Probity in Politics etc
      NY special like
      Probity 2021 or something like that

      I’m not so interested in the names per say

      but did the Councillors actually apply for the mileage expenses?
      like including them in their claim, and putting their signature to them
      or were they just fixtures on their monthly sub from payroll/ accounts payable depts

      An important difference
      anyone?
      ye can catch me on the twitter – just click to the right of the V there

      1. Brother Barnabas

        fair enough on the names, but, personally, I’d be very interested in the parties, affiliations… though we could all have a fair guess at it

        1. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

          but d’ye know what
          at Local level it could be anyone

          unless they are being readied for a National run, main party Councillors are left to roam in between whip orders from HQ
          I doubt it will be as predictable as that tbh

          anyway I’m only interested in knowing if they specifically claim, one by one etc
          or whether it was a recurring top up fixed into their monthly payments

  3. eoin

    98% drop, globally, in flu cases due to masks and social distancing and self isolating. Yet covid19 figures going up due to lack of mask wearing, social distancing and self isolation. And nobody questions this.

    1. GiggidyGoo

      I made the same observation yesterday. Brother Barabbas however considers such commentary ‘anti-vax’.

      1. Brother Barnabas

        if memory serves correctly, giggidy, I called you “stupid” for not being able to grasp the reasons for this

        labelling you antivaxx stems from a series of repeated comments from you over time – beginning with comments on the HPV vaccine

        1. GiggidyGoo

          I never commented on the HPV vaccine. Odd that it’s you and BitnBoxy (in all his forms) are the only ones that say this. Very odd indeed.
          And, as I called you out yesterday to show me anywhere in my comments that I was anti-vax, you couldn’t.
          Your memory isn’t that great. You didn’t use the word ‘stupid’. It was yesterday. Have a look. How stupid does that make you?

          And my comment to you yesterday went unanswered……..
          “What you’re saying is that there are two viruses which are spread by the same means, and the evasive actions used to deal with one (Covid) solves the problem (eliminates) the other (flu), but doesn’t stop the one they were created for? Is that it?”

          1. Brother Barnabas

            it’s your assertion that “my comment to you yesterday went unanswered” that I’m focusing on, actually

            from the thread link above, I can see that I answered you three (3) times – so hardly “unanswered”

            and there was a fourth (that may have included a profanity) that has been deleted

            (and as for your HPV vaccine comments – someone else cited this (and linked too, I think) a short while ago. I’m not going to go looking for it – I don’t care enough, sorry!)

          2. GiggidyGoo

            Not surprised at the profanity, which is normally tidied up by BS, but you didn’t answer

            “What you’re saying is that there are two viruses which are spread by the same means, and the evasive actions used to deal with one (Covid) solves the problem (eliminates) the other (flu), but doesn’t stop the one they were created for? Is that it?”

            Plus – I’m not surprised you’ve ran away from your other accusations, which you wrote as facts. You wrote ‘labelling you antivaxx stems from a series of repeated comments from you over time – beginning with comments on the HPV vaccine’
            So, you’ve no examples (no surprise, as there aren’t any).

            The lame ‘Someone else cited (and linked)’. Yet you can’t even link to who, and the link they supposedly provided.

            You’re a busted flush BB. Glad you’re outing yourself in this manner.

          3. Nigel

            “What you’re saying is that there are two viruses which are spread by the same means, and the evasive actions used to deal with one (Covid) solves the problem (eliminates) the other (flu), but doesn’t stop the one they were created for? Is that it?”

            Are you claiming here that you do not understand that two different diseases are behaving differently? Or that asking a non-epidemiolgost might not provide you with definitive reasons as to why the two diseases are behaving differently, but merely speculative observations?

    2. Charger Salmons

      Either way the lack of a flu outbreak this winter is excellent news.
      It would have placed intolerable strain on health services.
      The other good news is that doctors were unable to jet off for their annual two week holiday on the beaches and ski slopes at Christmas.

    3. alickdouglas

      They have different names because they are different. They transmit differently, they mutate differently and they intereact with our immune system differently.

      More simplistically there does seem to be a consistent signal across Europe that flu incidence is very low this year, so it’s likely a reflection of what’s actually happening biologically. (there is a well-established and active flu network that does sentinel testing; they are testing a bit less than usual, but not that much less; I don’t believe therefore that it’s a surveillance issue). If I was to stick my neck out I would say that the halt to global international travel has severely slowed the seeding of Europe with novel flu strains this year. If that were the case, then a higher proportion of people than usual are immune this year, through vaccination or exposure. That might be preventing the virus getting a foothold in Europe, and the social distancing measures are probably the cherry on top for blunting transmission. All of that is a simplistic view, I suspect the actual answer is that flu and corona are different and that the real answer is much more complex.
      And no, this isn’t a message in support of lockdown, it’s simply a point that I find the decrease in flu biologically plausible with the increase in SARS2 incidence from an epidemiological point of view.

      1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

        I have always noticed that when I get the flu it’s the minute I take a break from work, I’m usually stressed and run down when it hits so the minute I stop.. bang, flu.
        Lots of people are struggling with day to day due to lockdowns financially and emotionally but there are also lots who have a much slower pace of life, working from home, no stressful commute, more home cooked food and family time, taking times for walks etc, could this decrease in pace and stress be contributing to the flu being less able to get a toe hold too.

        1. alickdouglas

          Not at all my domain, but there are research groups working on that, and here’s a paper from a few months ago (there are flashes of readibility in the introduction and the discussion)

          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-020-00238-z

          Summary: Stressed mice are more susceptible to flu than non stressed mice. If you take the stress hormone from stressed mice and put it into non-stressed mice, they become more susceptible to flu. But once you go deeper and start looking at molecular and genetic specifics it gets very confusing. In mice…

          1. Brother Barnabas

            is there any connection between exercising and susceptibility to flu ?

            ive noticed that I never get sick during periods of intense exercise – always when I’m resting or injured

          2. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

            same, although there is a risk of ” open door syndrome ” if you over train , say when marathon training, rest is just as important as the runs I find…balance,
            since I have had to stop running my sinuses have gone crazy, I’m a bit cranky and I don’t have the same appetite,
            I reckon the happiness exercise brings is half the benefit

          3. scottser

            From purely personal experience, daily hyperventilation in cold air keeps me cold and flu free. There is a real therapeutic value to hocking up whatever oul badness is lurking in the nose and throat. I really miss cycling into work for this reason. Walking just doesn’t cut it.

          4. Brother Barnabas

            walking is great for the head, I think

            but you need some proper exertion – even if it’s just 60 seconds of a steep hill on the bike

          5. Micko

            I’ve found stress makes me very vulnerable to infection in general.

            Anecdotally, two friends have both said to me that they think their parents have aged terribly during lockdown.

            Isolation, lack of seeing grandchildren, constant news reports, fear of covid etc.

            They feel all these things are really taking their toll on their folks.

          6. Brother Barnabas

            absolutely

            it’s awful

            so let’s hope anti-vaxxers dont effectively discourage uptake of the vaccine

          7. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

            it’s put years on both mine, I was comparing last year’s Christmas photos , you’d swear it was five years ago if you were to compare

          8. Micko

            Yes.

            But I don’t think labelling people as “anti-vax” does anything to promote vaccine uptake or encourage any positive change in behaviour.

            Education, compassion and dialogue usually achieve the right result.

            Derision usually leads to people digging their heels in and marginalising them even further.

            In fact, I would think that labelling people in that way actually hurts the pro-vaccine movement.

          9. Brother Barnabas

            maybe, maybe not

            I’d guess most people are slightly anxious about getting injected with anything- human nature. I’m definitely getting the jab, but I’d prefer not to have to (and this is someone who used to ingest quantities of unknown and untested sh 1t that I sourced from a guy I knew only by his ‘professional’ name (Mr. GoodTime). but ultimately i trust science and I recognise that it’s necessary – it’s the only thing that will get us collectively out of the sh 1t situation we’re all in. but that’s being jeopardized by the certain people who are deliberately spreading misinformation about the Covid vaccines. its not about ‘education’ because these people know full well that what theyre saying isnt true. the objective- along with the anti-mask, anti-immigration, pro-trump etc agenda – is that there’s a high-level scheme being hatched by some malevolent elite. so that’s why pointing out their lies, inconsistencies and ridiculing the stupidity of their positions is valid

          10. Micko

            A lot to go through there BB

            I don’t think that people who are anti-vaccine are being deceptive and they absolutely do believe in what they are saying.

            Also, when you say “ there’s a high-level scheme being hatched by some malevolent elite” that does make you sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist.

            Maybe you and the anti-vaxers have more in common that you think?

            Anyway, some food for though

          11. Brother Barnabas

            you’ve misunderstood (!), micko

            I dont think that – I’m paraphrasing what *they* think (the great reset etc)

          12. Micko

            When you talk about “the anti-mask, anti-immigration, pro-trump etc agenda” it’s the same thing.

            You sound like a conspiracy theorist.

            Two sides of the same coin.

          13. Micko

            Yup.

            Both sides sound like things a conspiracy theorist would say BB

            As in -a ‘Big scary group of people working behind the scenes to control everything. ‘

            The parallels are there, doesn’t matter what side a person comes down on.

            As Millie said – one mans freedom fighter…

          14. Brother Barnabas

            going to clock this down to you deliberately missing the point (again), micko

            happy new year

          15. Micko

            When flummoxed I note that you always recourse to insult. Calling names, questioning people’s intelligence etc. Real schoolyard stuff.

            I think you’d be happier on The Journal.

          16. Micko

            “Exasperated” but he continues the back and forth.

            Clearly your appetite for being exasperated is unquenchable.

          17. jungleman

            @ Micko you’re blatantly missing the point on purpose. BB is definitely not a conspiracy theorist. You, on the other hand, quite clearly are. Your tactic of “just asking questions” is not very original.

      2. SOQ

        Surely the different ways in which flu and CoVid-19 stats are calculated play a part?

        They don’t test for asymptomatic flu for a start but do for SARS-CoV-2. And, if you have tested positive at any time within 28 days you are categorised as a CoVid-19 death- even though you could have been ran over by a bus. Then there is those who are labelled CoVid-19 deaths despite the fact they never had a test at all.

        My point is that flu metrics are very tight while CoVid-19 are very loose.

        1. alickdouglas

          Indeed, but the declared low incidence of flu is probably a reflection of the biological low prevalence of flu in the community this year, exactly because there is a properly functioning flu sentinel surveillance system since the 1960s. Eoin’s question was why we see a divergence between SARS2 incidence and Flu incidence. I don’t have an answer, but a large chunk of it appears to be that conflating SARS2 and flu is a very bad idea if you want to understand what is going on. It might be that the halt to international travel has caused a drop in flu diversity, and hence as a result there are fewer susceptible flu hosts this year. However i think that’s overly simplistic and there’s more going on: my own guess is that with flu prevalence low and susceptibles relatively rare, ‘lockdown’ has pushed flu transmissibility close to zero. SARS2 prevalence is (relatively) high, susceptibles remain common, so ‘lockdown’ may only be capable of minor modulations to incidence rather than driving it to zero. Again however, this is a very simplistic view, that doesn’t account for the viral differences and the way the immune system responds to the different pathogens.

          1. SOQ

            Just wondering if you have an opinion on this guy alick? Dr. Doug Corrigan- I’ll not post his resume but it is impressive.

            He outlines the various scenarios of how these new RNA vaccines might pan out and while he stresses that they are very unlikely- things like auto immune diseases and inability to recognize Corona viruses as alien by next generation- they are possibilities.

            “My professional opinion is that since RNA vaccines are a new mode of delivering vaccines, they should be tested for 5-10 years to demonstrate that genetic modification is not a major concern. In addition, all coronavirus vaccines, regardless of type, should be tested for an equal duration to show that ADE is not a concern. It is absolutely impossible to rule out these safety concerns in less than a year.”

            https://sciencewithdrdoug.com/2020/11/27/will-an-rna-vaccine-permanently-alter-my-dna/

          2. alickdouglas

            Suggesting that vaccines should be ‘tested for 5 to 10 years to demonstrate that genetic modification is not a concern’ is the voice of someone who has never thought about how one tests drugs in the real world. Products are never intentionally tested for 10 years, it usually takes that long to run a phase i to iii testing program because of administration, bureaucracy, staff availability, cash availability and disease attack rates. No regulator requires it, and it doesn’t make logical sense. Per regulator expectation, data in submissions is focussed on the phase III trial, up to 1 month post final dose. That’s where the biologically plausible problems are most likely to occur, and where statistical testing has the most power to highlight a difference. 12 months of follow up is done typically, but is usually used to guide post licensure follow up targets of concern rather than go/no go for licensure; and statistical power to highlight difference is significantly weakend when events become more rare (like rare safety peculiarities). The Pfizer/Moderna data packages were acceptable to FDA, because they contained roughly the same amount of data as a typical program generates in 10 years, but 10 year programs do not generate 10 years of data.

            To ‘test for 10 years’ you would need to recruit and follow up subjects for that period of time, AND account for drop outs/loss to follow up. The only value to such an experiment would be to demonstrate statistical difference test between vaccinees and non vaccinees. You lose a minimum of 15% of your subjects every year. I’d guess you’d need at least 1000 subjects per group to detect any difference at all after 10 years. I have better things to do than to work up 15% per year for 10 years to figure out what your recruitment figure at start is (and double it for a placebo group). Guestimate about USD 1500 cost to the sponsor per subject per year.

            So he’s suggesting waiting around for 10 years to measure the unmeasurable? Sorry to break it to you folks, but the incidence of rare problems has always been monitored post licensure. You need MILLIONS of vaccinees to spot rare problems. The point of phase III is to show that a) the intervention works b) the intervention is statistically unlikely to cause problems. Biological plausibility is used to determine likely impact beyond the trial, and that’s informed by the in vitro and preclin dossier.

            Did you notice that if you google him the top hit is ‘how do essential oils work’. ?

          3. V AKA Frilly Keane

            So Samie’oh
            Did God reveal His (note the capital H Dr Doug revered a mockeyah character with) Identity in the Physics of Light?

            Can’t wait to find out how Dr Doug established he’s a he ʘ‿ʘ

          4. SOQ

            He believes essential oils should be used on a daily basis is to protect DNA from oxidative damage- is he wrong? I have no idea. He is also very pro cannabis oil of course but that doesn’t suit the agenda now does it?

            A Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, a master’s in Engineering Physics and a bachelor’s in Engineering Physics is impressive in my world but sure- carry on sneering.

            Tnx alick, especially for ignoring the hyenas.

            What do you of his claims on auto immune diseases and inability to recognise new coronas? First time I have read claims about potential long term damage myself. He does of course say they are highly unlikely.

          5. Nigel

            ‘He believes essential oils should be used on a daily basis is to protect DNA from oxidative damage- is he wrong?’

            Is…is he saying you need to oil your DNA to keep it from rusting?

          6. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

            ah c’mon Nidgie
            according to the Spaff Old Q there
            who in fairness has clocked up some serious miles here
            the lad has A Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, a master’s in Engineering Physics and a bachelor’s in Engineering Physics

            at least call it something fancier

            Like an All-Purpose Lube, or WD-NA Lube
            ThreeSome-In-One

            behave now – looking at you Janet & Millie
            the man has a PhD ffs

          7. Micko

            While I have no doubt that essential oils cannot possibly directly effect a persons DNA, I have found them to be extremely calming and very good at reducing stress. Particularly Clary sage.

            And if Alicks point earlier about stress being damaging to the body and possibly leaving you open to infection – well than anything that helps a person chill out, is good in my book.

            Also a glass of wine helps… a lot.

            …hic

      3. ReproBertie

        “the halt to global international travel has severely slowed the seeding of Europe with novel flu strains this year.”

        Something I have said before but that certain people prefer to ignore as it ruins their theory. In the US the numbers getting flu shots are at record highs. There are no figures for Ireland yet but there’s been a campaign to encourage children to get the nasal spray flu vaccine this year so the chances are they’ll be higher here too. It’s free for under 17s. It’s very likely that the measures in place to prevent Covid are preventing flu from getting a foothold anywhere.

        We were told from the very start that Covid spreads much more rapidly than the flu and Covid is already here so of course it will keep spreading.

        1. Brother Barnabas

          “certain people prefer to ignore as it runs their theory”

          a factor in pretty much every comment from the emerging alt-righters around here

        2. f_lawless

          What if I put it to you that there are in fact some top level medical experts raising grave concerns about the safety of the the current Covid vaccines, and gave you a few examples? Would you be prepared to take it on board? Might you better appreciate that those taking a different viewpoint to your own have a perfectly reasonable basis for doing so?

          Sadly, I suspect you might simply ignore it or label it “alt-right misinformation” simply because it conflicts with your own current held opinion – although perhaps not?

          1. ReproBertie

            What if I put it to you that there are in fact some top level medical experts raising grave concerns about the ongoing Covid pandemic and expressing great enthusiasm for the current Covid vaccines, and gave you a few examples? Would you be prepared to take it on board?

          2. f_lawless

            @ReproBertie Absolutely. And I am aware of the fact that there are some top level medical experts speaking enthusiastically about the new experimental vaccines. Although, in my opinion, that hasn’t negated the concerns raised by certain top level experts over the safety of the new vaccines – particularly in light of the current reality that there’s no long term safety data available on the new vaccines.which have only come into existence in the recent past.

            Am I infer from your response that you do now accept that there is varying high level expert opinion out there and that it’s misguided to d dismiss those who have drawn different conclusions to your own with put-downs like “spreaders of misinformation, alt-right etc”? (I can provide links to the experts if you’re genuinely interested)

          3. ReproBertie

            No, I’m not interested thanks. There are naysayers in every single area of human existence. If we were to put their opinions ahead of the majority opinion of experts in the field we’d never progress.

    4. Elizabeth mainwaring

      Flu is less contagious dearie and I and everyone at the bridge club have been vaccinated against it. Simples!

    5. Junkface

      @eoin
      “98% drop, globally, in flu cases due to masks and social distancing and self isolating. Yet covid19 figures going up due to lack of mask wearing, social distancing and self isolation. And nobody questions this”

      I heard a report on this exact thing on the BBC world service on the radio. Australian scientists have been looking into this and they always suspected that the yearly Flu was connected to international flights. Now since flights have been largely cancelled, the Flu numbers have plummeted. Also wearing masks would generally slow down the Flu transmission also. I will try to find the related study from Australia.

    6. Nigel

      It depends. If you’re ‘questioning’ it out of curiosity as to the causes, then fine. If you’re ‘questioning’ it because you think it indicates something nefarious afoot then people are well out of patience and inclined to be snippy.

  4. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

    anyone watched Death to 2020 on Netflix ?
    Have to say I enjoyed it for the most part,
    one of the points was about the continuing polarisation of people’s opinions and how they are discussed , I won’t use debated…with agression and insults for the most part,
    I think the last couple of days threads illustrate that trend rather well for the most part,
    how unfortunate,
    I wonder how much our on line communication style is starting to be reflected in everyday life,
    I felt compelled to ask my neighbor straight the other day if there was a particular origin of her rudeness, I can’t imagine what she’s like on line.
    Anyway I digress, time for another stuffing sandwich.

    1. Micko

      Watched it last night.

      Didn’t think it was up to Charlie Brooker’s usual standard.
      Way too American.

      But yep, the polarisation of our society is absolutely mental.

      And you’re right – you see it here everyday. A simple question or opinion ends up with people questioning someone’s intellectual ability or labelling their intent as malicious.

      Having the wrong opinion can very easily see you lumped in with a crowd you have nothing in common with.

      1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

        WHAT DO YOU MEAN TOO AMERICAN, don’t you know the Irish built the US something, something ya thick ! ;)
        Kiss your momma with that mouth ?
        Am I doing it right ? :)

    2. millie bobby brownie

      I very much enjoyed Hugh Grant’s historian, but otherwise I didn’t enjoy it as much as I’d hoped to.

      I always loved Charlie Brooker’s Screen Wipe – his Anti-Viral Wipe was on last night and is also very funny – but Death to 2020 seems to be more directed at American audiences so maybe i didn’t ‘get’ all of the humour?

      1. Janet, dreams of an alternate universe

        I expected to hate it so maybe that’s why I was surprised to have a few genuine lol’s

      2. Micko

        His anti-viral wipe was very funny.

        His description of the virus coming closer to Europe was hilarious.

        “France? That’s not in Asia?”

        Or something like that – gas man

  5. ( ̄_, ̄ ) AKA Frilly Keane

    a bitta’ve a funny

    was over in the Credit Union there and asked one of the girls was Santy good to her, silly local bants stuff

    Ah he’are Venetta, wait’ll ya he’are dis
    He left me sumtin’ red and durty







    a cold sore

    well it made me laugh

  6. johnny

    oh stable genius,what is truth but an abstract concept.

    bro,brother,hm brother from eh maybe another mother perhaps….

    “I love the Great State of Georgia, but the people who run it, from the Governor, @BrianKempGA, to the Secretary of State, are a complete disaster and don’t have a clue, or worse. Nobody can be this stupid. Just allow us to find the crime, and turn the state Republican,” Trump

    no,no NOT that brother,this bro oh no bro.

    “Now it turns out that Brad R’s brother works for China, and they definitely don’t want ‘Trump’. So disgusting!”

    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-attacks-brad-raffensperger-brother-1557917

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