‘Do Not Rush To Sweeping Accusations’

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From top: Bucha, Ukraine at the weekend; Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov.

This afternoon.

Further to international outrage over civilian deaths in Ukraine, including apparent evidence of bound bodies shot at close range and a mass grave found in areas retaken from Russian troops…

…Taras Shapravskyi, deputy mayor of Bucha, a town around 40km northwest of Kyiv city, said ’50 of around 300 people were found dead’ were the victims of ‘extra-judicial killings carried out by Russian troops’.

Via Al Jazeera:

The Kremlin has categorically rejected accusations that Russian forces were responsible for killing civilians in Bucha, suggesting images of corpses lining the streets were “fakes”.

Journalists from international media over the weekend found corpses in civilian clothes – some with their hands bound – in Bucha after Ukrainian forces retook the town on the outskirts of

Ukrainian authorities said on Sunday they were investigating possible war crimes, while Western leaders erupted in outrage over the deaths.

Speaking to reporters on Monday, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the facts and chronology of the events in Bucha did not support Ukraine’s version of events.

He said Russian “experts at the Ministry of Defence have identified signs of video fakes and various fakes”, without elaborating.

“We would demand that many international leaders do not rush to sweeping accusations and at least listen to our arguments,” he added.

Russia denies military forces killed Bucha civilians in Ukraine (Al Jazeera)

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91 thoughts on “‘Do Not Rush To Sweeping Accusations’”

  2. Tom2

    Why was this posted by Olga Cronin? A person who was not posted here in any meaningful way in years.

      1. The Millie Obnoxious™

        That’s quite the whoopsy daisy, in fairness Bodge. No password retrieval in broadsheet towers?

        I miss the dog avatar.

  3. Nigel

    ‘Give us time to get our stories straight.’

    What are they going to do, admit their poorly-trained, badly-led, under-supplied, hungry young conscripts from various distant backwoods who’ve been mauled for weeks by Ukrrainian resistance took it out on civilians? Actually that might be exactly what they end up doing, to absolve the leadership of any complicity. But who knows? There’s a stalwart cadre of war crime deniers online to back them up.

    1. paul

      and “He said Russian “experts at the Ministry of Defence have identified signs of video fakes and various fakes”, without elaborating.”

      We have proof that someone else did it, but nobody can see the proof but us.

    2. Mr. T

      Not ruling anything out, however it is curious how not a word was said about this the day the russians left, or the 2nd day. And that in the era of social media, a town that still had working internet and smartphones didnt even mention these massacres and mass graves?

      1. Nigel

        Is it? Is it really? Seems to me there are a lot of assumptions there about how people survive an occupation and what exact conditions they were enduring and exactly what they had access to and how long it took for the survivors discover the scale of the atrocities, to find the means of communicating them, all the while still trying to survive, not to mention whether they actually did or not and whether you just didn’t become aware of it until the coverage expanded with the arrival of observers and journalists.

        1. Mr. T

          People have been obsessing over the slightest reports from Bucha and Irpin and other villages near Kyiv for the last 2 weeks almost – there was 0 indication of mass graves or mass extra judicial killings on any of that.
          Hell, even the bang on western intelligence didnt raise anything about that until the Ukrainian forces moved in, days after the Russian retreat. The mayor of Bucha reported Russians leaving, and only days later mentioned anything about dead civilians strewn across the streets. You don’t have to be a sceptic or “Putinbot” to realise something stinks with the story and there is more to this

          1. Nigel

            Social media has given people the weirdly contradictory attitude of dstrusting everything coming out of conflict zones and demanding perfect knowledge of events as they happen in the conflict zones. You just worked out that there are massive blind spots, congratulations, their existence isn’t dispositive of things actually happening.

          3. f_lawless

            And maybe a congratulations to you too Nigel – I think – is this a turning point? I take it no longer will you make impossible demands for definitive evidence as a way of dismissing those who speculate on compelling circumstantial evidence of bioweapons labs and such like . At least, if you do revert back to type, we can always refer you back to the above comment.

            As an aside, “atrocity propaganda” has been around since as long as civilisations have been going to war. There’s even a Wikipedia page about it

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

            “The atrocity story refers to the symbolic presentation of action or events (real or imaginary) in such a context that they are made flagrantly to violate the (presumably) shared premises upon which a given set of social relationships should be conducted. The recounting of such tales is intended as a means of reaffirming normative boundaries. By sharing the reporter’s disapproval or horror, an audience reasserts normative prescription and clearly locates the violator beyond the limits of public morality. The term was coined in 1979 by Bromley, Shupe, and Joseph Ventimiglia

            Bromley and others define an atrocity as an event that is perceived as a flagrant violation of a fundamental value. It contains the following three elements:

            1 moral outrage or indignation;
            2 authorization of punitive measures;
            3 mobilization of control efforts against the apparent perpetrators.

            The veracity of the story is considered irrelevant.”

            In the social media age, the viral video has become a standard war-time propaganda tool.

            When the ‘evidence’ is coming from a partisan source and is self-serving, then we should maintain a level of scepticism and try to use our critical thinking capacity to best judge .We know that the Ukrainian forces have ruthless neo-Nazi extremists in their midsts and that the Ukrainian authorities have expressed repeated frustration with NATO for not getting more overtly involved.

          4. Nigel

            ‘ I take it no longer will you make impossible demands for definitive evidence’

            So long as you don’t make impossibly definitive statements based on intrinsically shaky evidence.

            ‘“atrocity propaganda” has been around since as long as civilisations have been going to war.’

            You know what have also been around? Actual atrocities.

            ‘then we should maintain a level of scepticism’

            There is evidence emerging that the Russians committed atrocities. There is no evidence that the Ukrainians carried out the atrocities in order to blame the Russians. So long as that situation holds true, skepticism is outweighed by evidence. Critical thinking would involve acting with an awareness that Russia is a bad actor when it comes to information.

          5. f_lawless

            “Critical thinking would involve acting with an awareness that Russia is a bad actor when it comes to information”

            I wouldn’t deem that critical thinking at all. In fact that blanket statement is more like Russophobia. Now if you’d said

            “”Critical thinking would involve acting with an awareness that Russia has the potential to be a bad actor when it comes to information”

            I would agree with you. But are you able to explicitly acknowledge that the NATO countries such as the US, UK and France etc can potentially be bad actors when it comes to information?

            I would also add that other groups who have notoriously been bad actors when it comes to endorsing dodgy propaganda that fuels military conflicts, are of course western NGOs such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, etc. That’s their dual function as a soft power tool: endorsing or actively creating propaganda to further the geopolitical aspirations of western elites.

            Take Amnesty as an example: they backed “nurse” Nayirah’s fake “incubator babies” atrocity story that was used to support the 1990 Gulf War. In the lead up to the bombing of Libya, they backed propaganda that Gaddafi was using “black mercenaries” to massacre civilians. Regarding the Dirty War in Syria, they compiled a tabloid-style report comprising of uncorroborated set of accusations by opposition figures not living in Syria and extrapolated wildly to accuse the Syrian government of hanging 13,000 prisoners, etc,etc

      2. jonjoe

        It is a bit strange that nobody noticed these bodies lying in the streets until now, but it’s quite common for dead people to move around in war, depending on who they want to blame for being dead.

        1. Nigel

          The city went from one and a half million people to about, what was it, three hundred thousand? And what do you think they were doing, going for long sightseeing strolls while the bullets and rockets were flying and Russian soldiers were running around?

  5. Shitferbrains

    Who in their right minds would offer up opinions by Al Jazeera ? The wholly owned mouthpiece of a despotic slave state.

    1. SOQ

      Because like India- they don’t have skin in the game. If you are going to do apply a morality or ethics standard, none of them would pass so you pick the ones with the least reasons to lie- on this subject.

      1. paul

        isn’t it owned by Qatar? Grand place for slaves prisoners with jobs, very open, honest and trustworthy.

          1. paul

            why does it have to be one or the other? Why can’t we mistrust all three?

            If Russia are locking up gay people, China are locking up Muslims, Qatar has an active slave trade and the US are stirring up conflict all around the world, I don’t have to pick a favourite and cheer them on. I can just condemn them all.

          2. SOQ

            Either you are going to switch off all TV, Radio and internet devices and live like a monk or, you accept that you are going to be exposed to propaganda because it is unavoidable.

            You can then accept that propaganda at face value or you can question it. If you question it then you find your own sources. Two ways of doing that is either legacy media channels whom you think have less skin in the game or, find independent sources.

            All while bearing in mind that few if any are completely objective- so you mix and match.

          3. paul

            you assume I’m switching off, ignoring a more nuanced approach.

            no source is independant, it is remarkably ignorant to think otherwise.

            also, you should stop thinking Russia is so great and faultless. It damages your credibility.

      2. ce

        India and Qatar both have lots of skin in the game – Indian because of military equipment links and oil, and Qatar due to Lebanon and Syria and how intertwined these are with Russia – ironically, similar to Israel who have been very quiet about things even though a least two holocaust memorials have been severely damaged and that Zelinsky (I think) is the only other Jewish head of state in the world… We won’t agree on many things SOQ, but I think it’s fair to say that many people have very serious skin in this game for all manner of reasons.

        1. SOQ

          Of course, it is geo politics we are talking about here so there is many layers and interests but at least on a surface media level- I would assume less overt propaganda.

  6. Dinkum

    I just wonder is this propaganda or the Russians stupid enough.There is so much fake news and the war drums are deafening.
    Time the UN were sent in to investigate .I find it very hard to believe anything reported in wars especially after the smoking gun that started the war with Iraq ,and they are itching for a war.
    This war is insane

    1. Nigel

      You’ll notice in this instance, the people who started the war are denying the claims. The Ukrainians, who are the people on the ground, had nothing to do with Iraq.

    2. Mr. T

      Ukrainians desperately want western intervention (boots on the ground) – and some of the more unsavoury elements of Ukrainian National Guards have been known to kill civilians for all kinds of reasons

      1. SOQ

        Ukrainians do not want western boots on the ground- the Ukrainian US puppet regime is another story entirely.

      2. Dinkum

        I did not want to say that but an international investigation team needs to go there pronto and examine the corpses

    1. Dinkum

      I did not want to say that but an international investigation team needs to go there pronto and examine the corpses
      I am not a person that has much faith in mankind and I think humans can do the most horrendous things but believe me Ukrainian Nazis are the worst and the aznov boys are fighting the Russians in those parts
      A great film made by a polish director called volhynia gives an insight into Ukrainian Nazis post WW2 based on true stories
      Then look at the gleiwitz incident when Nazis tried to blame Poland for starting WW2 by invading Germany
      Zelensky is desperate to bring the EU into this and desperation makes people do the most desperate things

  9. SOQ

    It really wouldn’t surprise me if the western media have a series of these sorts of stories to broadcast on a schedule, and the politicians are ready to howl outrage in unison. All you have to do is look at the English papers on any given morning where most of them will be carrying the exact same story, near word for word.

    You would need to naïve beyond stupidity to believe that is by accident.

    And the US network cables are even worse. A few years ago, someone done a video montage of about thirty news presenters on different channels, all reading from exactly the same script- it is not called TV programming for nothing. That is not to say the Russian side is any better- I don’t know- but I very much doubt it.

    In the case of Ukraine- there has been repeated issuing of proven fake stories in the western media so far, so I very much doubt if it is any different with this one.

    1. Nigel

      ‘most of them will be carrying the exact same story, near word for word.’

      Newspapers cover the same current events shocker. We need more covereage of current events in alternate realities, just for versimilitude.

    2. Cian

      Have you heard of news agencies? Like Reuters? or AP? or AFP?

      They gather news stories and then sell them to subscribing news organizations. One journalist in Ukraine may be providing the news for 100s of papers.

      1. SOQ

        I wasn’t talking about Ukraine- I was talking about the obvious synchronization of stories and messaging within the legacy media, and that was not even in war time.

        Not that this is war time either of course, if the fairy-tale that Ukraine is independent is to believed.

  10. Nigel

    Here’s an update for you, Bodger.

    ‘The Russian publication Ria Novosti published a lengthy piece titled “What Russia should do with Ukraine” in which it openly calls for mass ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians.’

    https://twitter.com/sea_inside3/status/1510950966002176005

    Some choce quotes:

    The Nazis who took up arms should be destroyed to the maximum on the battlefield. There should be no significant differences between the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the so-called national battalions, as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations.

    Denazification can only be carried out by the winner, which implies (1) his absolute control over the denazification process and (2) the power to ensure such control. In this respect, a denazified country cannot be sovereign.

    The ideology of the denazifier cannot be disputed by the guilty party subjected to denazification.

    Denazification will inevitably also be a de-Ukrainization

    The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the population of Ukraine will have to understand as it begins to free itself from the intoxication, temptation and dependence of the so-called European choice.

    Now that’s what I call propaganda.

    1. E'Matty

      Not sure anyone here is going to deny that’s propaganda Nigel. It’s pretty grotesque propaganda in my view. So, back to the issue being discussed, these alleged war crimes….

      1. Nigel

        We’ve been wondering about Putin’s plans and objectives in Ukraine. This could be a clue.

          5. Nigel

            By defintion, anyone they target is not a civilian. ‘The ideology of the denazifier cannot be disputed by the guilty party subjected to denazification.’ Can’t dispute if you’re dead. If you’re dead, you’re guilty.

  11. scottser

    now, i don’t trust the tans at the best of times but this guy takes it to a whole new level:

    Vladimir Solovyov, the popular state presenter who is under western sanctions said on his Sunday night talkshow that the killings were planned by Britain.

    “The war against Russia entered a new phase today. Very soon they’ll accuse us of genocide. To all appearances this whole provocation was plotted by the British,” Solovyov said.

    1. E'Matty

      At this stage, who really knows? Maybe, maybe not. Or is it that you don’t believe dem lurvly British would ever do such a thing? Have you ever looked into the history of Britain at all. There’s very few with darker histories than our closest neighbour. Genocide, massacres, concentration camps, starvation of populations, torture, summary executions, the list is endless really. British Power and its ruling class are incredibly dark.

  12. Jonsmoke

    Rather than shouting ‘FAKE’ every time something like this comes up, would a better approach by the Russians not be to say, we do not think that our troops have done this but we will investigate and punish appropriately anyone found to have committed a crime.
    You know, accept the fact that in war, invasions, ‘special military operations, etc., the people with guns in the thick of it all sometimes break the rules and do really bad stuff.

    1. Nigel

      And lose the chance to blame the Ukrainians, the Nazis, the British, the Americans, the journalists, the emergency workers, and the independant observers? Never.

    2. E'Matty

      I agree that would be a better approach from a public relations perspective. We could similarly say that the Western media could await evidence to substantiate such claims before printing lurid and emotive headlines presenting them to a pretty gullible populace as fact. They did precisely the same with the alleged chemical attacks in Syria, the raping soldiers in Libya, the babies being thrown from incubators in Kuwait and so many more times.

      The problem is, our media are complicit and active members of the Western war machine. They are there to bring the public along with decisions already made and for purposes the ordinary person would never support without a little dose of hysterical blood lust emotive propaganda to deceive them into believing war is being waged for some just cause or reason. It’s literally the same every time there’s a conflict and the West wants to push a certain agenda. The Russians are doing precisely the same at home to their population. The Chinese and Indians, exactly the same, and so on….

        1. Hughie Luas

          Broadsheet enabling Private Eye Dave Spart-style loon-juice that Indymedia in its heyday could only aspire to.

          MR – Montly Review

          – The Marxist organ that found the Soviet Union wasn’t revolutionary enough and too conservative with this detente stuff so turned to support China instead.

          – and supported by a testimonial from Danny Glover.

          Er,…..

        2. Dinkum

          It’s more than impossible to separate the truth from the fiction
          But something stinks to high heaven .

    2. E'Matty

      Bellingcat is a NATO sponsored and supported organisation pretending to just be Elliot Higgins and was responsible for much of the dubious propaganda on the Syrian conflict. It’s most certainly not a reliable or independent source. The claims of a massacre could very well be true, but let’s just wait and see what objectively verifiable evidence emerges.

      1. Nigel

        Yes, you guys hate him because he poked so many holes in the Putin/Assad propaganda it looked like swiss cheese.

  14. Zaccone

    https://www.ft.com/content/84b82726-d4d0-446c-a409-f61037686315

    “Human Rights Watch said it had documented several cases of unlawful violence it described as “apparent war crimes”, including in the Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Kyiv regions.

    The group said the cases it documented, which included summary executions and rape, indicated “unspeakable, deliberate cruelty and violence against Ukrainian civilians” which should be investigated as war crimes. ”

    Heres a non-political, human rights, NGO’s take. Rather a bit more reliable and independent than a Kremlin spokesman.

    1. Hughie Luas

      Let me quote E’Matty and Fearganaim and the crusty SOQ on this sort of stuff: “No, no, no. That’s all U.S. and N.AT.O. lies. We haven’t had a ride. Ever. And they’re EU lies as well.”

      2. Fearganainm

        Eh?

        Leave me out of that. I’m neither a supporter of Russia’s illegal invasion nor of it’s killing of Ukrainians. And I’ve zero time for Putinbots or any kind of pro-Russia shilling.

          2. SOQ

            God forbid anyone would try to seek out a balanced opinion eh?

            How is your lockdowns and vaccines going btw?

    2. Chris

      There are no ‘non-political’ NGOs. All of them are purposefully compromised. H G Wells wrote the template nearly a century ago – ‘The Open Conspiracy’ https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks13/1303661h.html

      It’s one of many titles that will help see through the current miasma. Initially written for policy makers on the elites payroll, to bring about global governance. I think all things are pointing towards multi-polar governance ie ‘1984’ – it’s worth noting that Orwell wrote it after his time with the Fabian Society as a warning as too what the elites were planning.

      1. Zaccone

        Ukraine mistreating opposition soldiers is undoubtedly bad. But they’re not raping and killing Russian civilians. Unlike the reverse:

        “The Russian military’s siege warfare tactics in Ukraine, marked by relentless indiscriminate attacks on densely-populated areas, are unlawfully killing civilians in several cities, Amnesty International said today in a new on-the-ground investigation.

        For the first time, Amnesty International field investigators in Ukraine have independently verified physical evidence of banned cluster munitions, the use of which violates international law. They have also collected testimony that documents Russian siege tactics, including unlawful indiscriminate attacks, disruption of basic utilities, cuts to communication, destruction of civilian infrastructure, and restrictions on access to medicine and healthcare. ”

        https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/04/ukraine-russias-cruel-siege-warfare-tactics-unlawfully-killing-civilians-new-testimony-and-investigation/

        1. SOQ

          Where was Amnesty when Azov Nazis were butchering Russian speakers in the east for the past eight years?

          1. Nigel

            You didn’t even bother to check what AIs coverage of Ukraine has been like before you typed that stupid comment did you?
            https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement/
            “All sides in this conflict have shown disregard for civilian lives and are blatantly violating their international obligations,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International’s Secretary General, who travels to Kyiv and Moscow in the coming days. “Our evidence shows that Russia is fuelling the conflict, both through direct interference and by supporting the separatists in the East. Russia must stop the steady flow of weapons and other support to an insurgent force heavily implicated in gross human rights violations.”

          4. K.Cavan

            14,000 people killed by their own government in Donbas, the Russians have a lot of catching up to do with the Zelensky regime, when it comes to war crimes. The West & it’s corrupted institutions, including Amnesty, have an unfortunate blind spot when it comes to our crimes & a self-delusional ability that’s almost a superpower.
            We call the Ukrainians resisting Russian assault ”Freedom Fighters” but those resisting their larger neighbours’ aggression in Yemen are always ”Rebels” & that’s enough to ease our consciences but the rest of the planet sees this self-serving hypocrisy for what it is. A sick joke.
            I had some dealings with Amnesty Ireland a few years back, an appalling cadre of dishonest, careerist bourgeoisie.

          5. K.Cavan

            Actually, Nigel’s comment just reiterates this & backs up SOQ’s point, Amnesty’s statement is a big, fat, pointless nothing.

        2. Me So Harney

          There’s always context Zaccone, and I completely agree with you..

          On a side note..

          “14. Ukrainian armed forces and armed groups continue to lay landmines, including anti-personnel mines, despite Ukraine’s obligations as a State party to the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty10. Credible estimates indicate that mines contaminate large areas of agricultural land in east Ukraine, often in areas which are poorly marked, near roads and surrounding civilian areas. This has resulted in civilians being killed and maimed, often while walking to their homes and fields. These risks are particularly acute for people living in towns and settlements near the contact line, as well as the 23,000 people who cross the contact line every day.”

          Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine 16 February to 15 May 2016

  18. K.Cavan

    Unfortunately, the Ukrainian troops who killed these people tied many of their hands with the white pieces of fabric, which, worn on the left arm, are a signal of their civilian status to Russian troops. The Ukrainian equivalent is a blue piece of fabric, so these people were murdered by Ukrainian troops because they were wearing white fabric pieces.
    The efforts of the MSM to create antagonism towards Russia in those living inside the controlled fantasy bubble that the West has become is, of course, essential to strengthen their resolve when they see, yet again, their economies destroyed, their businesses bankrupted, their way of life annihilated, their dreams crushed, & their societies sundered, deliberately & methodically through pointless sanctions, by the political leaders they voted in to actually protect these things. We should be hanging these charlatans from lamp-posts, but we won’t, because, well, it’s all Putler’s fault, isn’t it?
    It’s difficult to oppose the contention that this civilization is in it’s twilight years, is no longer fit for purpose & deserves to perish, along with it’s hapless, worthless denizens. The other 87% of the population of the planet, those who live outside of the West, have turned their back on us in this conflict with Russia but like children, we insist we’re the only one marching in step. Alas, such childish fantasists cannot maintain a civilization.

  19. Fearganainm

    Or, the Russians killed them, having tied their hands with the white pieces of fabric.

    Do try to keep up.

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