No Solution



Earlier: Nightmares

Minister outlines Ireland’s position on abortion at UN Human Rights Committee (RTÉ)

90 thoughts on “No Solution

  1. Blah

    Law against sex with 14 year olds also discriminates against those who can travel to Spain.

    We have a law, but we can’t stop people going abroad. It’s not that amazing an idea, Colette.

    1. ABM

      You’ll find that government-funded “pregnancy agencies” will happily provide you a sail rail ticket, a hotel room (with lots of free literature on arrival) and a red coat for the inclement weather. Not only do working people (including Muslims, Catholics, Jews, etc.) have to fund these agencies, we’re also expected to lend our approval to these procedures in the interests of “democracy” and “equality”.

      1. paul

        If that is true, and I have my doubts, this working person has no problem funding these agencies, “the interests of “democracy” and “equality””

      2. WhoAreYa

        Great, I’ll book an appointment for your Mum

        It’s never to late to take precautions

  2. obriendj

    Surely a trip to the UK would be cheaper than having a baby.
    We can’t expect the government to pay for women to go to UK, can we? The person has to take some responsibility for their actions, no? (except of course in extreme cases)

    1. ahjayzis

      We *can* expect the government to remove itself from decisions that should be taken by a woman and her doctor though.

      A referendum, please.

      Talk to me about ‘personal responsibility’ when you develop lung cancer from smoking 20 a day.

      1. cluster

        While abortion on demand is illegal in Ireland, the govt shouldn’t/can’t be paying for airfares for abortion on demand. Personally, I’m fully pro-choice but it doesn’t look like the public as a whole are quite there.

        The smoking comment is a bit meaningless. Smokers more than pay for the cost of smoking-related illnesses in extra taxes. Non-smokers are a greater net cost to the exchequer than smokers are. This has been demonstrated in study after study across the western world. I have posted links here a few times.

        1. AG

          Nobody is suggesting that the government pay for people’s flights to the UK to get an abortion. What they are saying is that the idea that “sure if you really want an abortion you can just go to the UK so Ireland isn’t that bad” is discriminatory. So the “Irish solution to an Irish problem” is not a solution at all.

          1. Mark Dennehy

            Because it costs more to go to the UK than some people have to spend. Hence, some people get better healthcare than others. That’s discrimination on economic grounds, and wouldn’t happen if abortion was legally available here.

          2. AG

            It’s discriminatory because the so-called solution is dependent upon whether you can afford to travel to the UK or not.

          3. rotide

            So it’s also discriminatory that people must pay to travel abroad to be Euthanised?

            Should the government help with that?

          4. WhoAreYa

            I think you are asking the wrong question

            If euthanasia was ‘a required healthcare treatment’ under the terms of the Treatment Abroad Scheme then yes Ireland would have to pay for it

            But remind me now what sort of illness euthanasia cures? Oh yes that numbing headache I get when I read people’s information-free reactionary commentary.

          5. rotide

            What sort of illness does abortion cure that is not allowed for under the recent changes to the law?

            As i said below, I was under the impression that abortion is allowed for under law if there is a danger to the mothers life

          6. Sidewinder

            Pelvic girdle pain. Pre-eclampsia. Kidney failure. Prevents post partum depression. Also cures anything among the very, very long list off illnesses and ailments (several life threatening, shedloads life threatening if you’re already ill) that come with being pregnant.

          7. WhoAreYa

            It’s hard to keep up with your points when you keep throwing in non sequiturs about Ferraris and euthanasia.

            But to answer your point here as I have already done below – I believe that’s far too restrictive. I can’t imagine for example any other medical condition e.g. a migraine where in order to treat your condition the doctor has to get three assessments from psychiatrists as to whether you are suicidal before prescribing your treatment.

        2. WhoAreYa

          It depends on how you view abortion – is it a health issue – which as you must realise in the case of danger to the life of the mother like in the case of Savita, it could well be

          The government has a statutory duty to provide access to healthcare not available to citizens of this country by funding their trip for a similar treatment in another EU country. If you want me to provide a cite for that I will.

        3. rotide

          You are battering me for glib points regarding ferraris and euthanasia and then you go and compare an abortion to a migraine.

          I’m pro choice but what a lot of the pro choice fundamentalists on websites such as this suffer from is a complete lack of empathy when it comes to the other side of the coin.

          Someone who geniunely believed that a foetus was a human life (regardless of any argument you may throw at them) would find your comparison highly offensive.

          Even I find it a bit stupid.

          1. rotide

            and that reply was meant for WhoAreYa obviously.

            How about an edit button instead of kiss blowing from the admins!

          2. Anne

            No. xxx
            It were I, not the admins.

            “pro choice fundamentalists on websites such as this suffer from is a complete lack of empathy when it comes to the other side of the coin”

            Then, away with them and they can do whatever they want with their own bodies.. and let others do likewise.
            It’s really not that complicated.

          3. WhoAreYa

            I did not make any comparison between medical abortion and a migraine

            I made a comparison in terms of access to required medical treatments, which happened to be those two.

            I repeat the question is where you stand on the ‘abortion as healthcare’ issue – it has nothing to do with being offensive etc – the harping on about this is another non-sequitur. Can you not debate an argument on the substantive points without throwing in (and out) baby, bathwater, kitchen sink etc? (NOTE: using a metaphor involving babies and bathwaters is not comparing abortion to taking a bath, even though that latter was a well-known contraceptive method here until recently).

          4. WhoAreYa

            The only thing you are struggling to comprehend is the difference between a general principle -free access to required healthcare treatment as a citizen’s right – and some namby-pamby mumbo jumbo about killing babies that your Mommy taught you.

          5. Sidewinder

            And people who genuinely believe women aren’t equal to men would find my level of education offensive. And yet I persist in holding nothing but contempt for that viewpoint.

    2. ahjayzis

      *or gastric band surgery for that matter.

      Punishing ‘fallen women’ by forcing motherhood on them is a nicely sick little twist on our old method of chastising them by stealing their kids.

    3. Mark Dennehy

      “extreme cases”.

      Hm. Y’know, it might be easier to accept the legitimacy of that opinion if it was expressed in a country with a lower rate of domestic violence and where marital rape was a crime before 1990.

      (I don’t mean “was a crime” in the sense of being a specific offence with a specific prohibition in law, I mean “was a crime” in the sense that the law didn’t state that it couldn’t possibly be a crime).

      1. Jess

        1990 was nearly a quarter of a century ago (i know i feel old too), we can judge it on modern standards better. I just seems that those opposing abortion still have their mentality somewhere between outbreaks of moving statues

        1. Sidewinder

          Check the list of people in the oireachtas then who are still in the oireachtas now then come back to me.

    1. phil

      So as a ‘taxpayer’ you think you have more rights over other citizens? Interesting idea, civil rights based on ability to pay …. what a wonderful world you would build ….

    2. ahjayzis

      As a tax payer I don’t wish to pay for the lighting on the street outside your house, since I never need to go there.

    3. Mark Dennehy

      As a taxpayer…
      … I don’t want to pay for the roads in Galway because I don’t drive there.
      … I don’t want to pay for the dole, because I have a job.
      … I don’t want to pay for primary schools, secondary schools or colleges, because my kid’s not old enough for them yet.
      … I don’t want to pay for hospitals, because I’m not sick.
      … I don’t want to pay for the fire brigade, because I’m not on fire.

  3. Starina

    remove the expensive part – don’t sweep the issue under the carpet by making women travel to the UK. Make abortion legal here. seems simple enough to me. Maybe I should run for government.

      1. Blah

        Just about every other western country has joined NATO too. Should we do what everyone else is doing there too?

    1. obriendj

      This would be the logical solution but there are still too many illogical people in this country.

  4. rotide

    The law here discriminates against people who want a ferrari. Why can’t the government buy me one of them?

      1. ABM

        The day Catholic hospital trusts user their donors’ bequests to pay for abortions is the day hell freezes over. A woman who goes through with an abortion is opening herself up to a whole myriad of problems down the line. Vacuuming your own flesh and blood out “solves” nothing.

    1. Barry the Hatchet

      Yes, yes wanting a Ferrari is EXACTLY the same thing as wanting to avail of medical treatment for your mental and/or physical health. Ferraris for some, miniature straw men for others!

    2. rotide

      I was obviously being glib.

      Bottom line though, Abortion is not a basic human right. It’s is ridiculous to suggest that the law discrinates against women that cannot afford to travel.

      1. WhoAreYa

        It isn’t

        But seeing as we were being ridiculous by bringing Ferraris into it, I struggle to follow your reasoning.

          1. WhoAreYa

            I have explained it already above in reply to another.

            If abortion required for health reasons and can not be supplied in Ireland the government has a statutory duty under the Treatment Abroad scheme to fund the treatment.


          2. rotide

            Correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t abortion for health reasons now allowed for under the law?

          3. WhoAreYa

            In some cases it is but it may not be available within a reasonable period of time because of the rule about having to have a psychological assessment undertaken.

            Further it does not seem to be available in cases where psychological damage or distress could result from going ahead with the pregnancy e.g. a rape victim (other than where they suffer an apparent risk of suicide). Many suggest that the suicide test is too high a bar to set to the pregant woman who wants an abortion.

          4. lorcan nagle

            Rotide: Abortion is only allowed in Ireland if the life of the mother is at risk, and only then if it can be proven that an abortion was the only procedure that can save her life. A doctor who performs an abortion that is later proven not to be necessary, and everyone who assisted that doctor is liable for up to 15 years in prison thanks to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy bill.

    3. WhoAreYa

      Ferrari would never enter into a mass market deal like that as they have a quality brand ethos to maintain – Ferraris by definition and practise are not for ‘everyone’. If you want an oul Micra however we can review it.

    1. Starina

      How about people who already have children who take up most of their pay and a car that breaks down a lot and holy fuck I wasn’t expecting to have to go to England all of a sudden and pay for flights, hotel and a procedure, plus taxis and food, how am I going to pay for this and still make rent next month?!

      Just as an offhand example.

    2. Starina

      How about people who already have children who take up most of their pay and a car that breaks down a lot and holy f**ck I wasn’t expecting to have to go to England all of a sudden and pay for flights, hotel and a procedure, plus taxis and food, how am I going to pay for this and still make rent next month?!

      Just as an offhand example.

    3. Sidewinder

      Also refugees who can’t leave the country without losing their refugee status after waiting in direct provision for years. There’s also people too ill, young, ashamed or abused to be able to travel.

  5. bubbasbaby

    ha ha! really funny and clever too. now come on and say that to my face. bring your kid, maybe not old enough for school but i’m sure they’ll understand this lesson.

  6. nellyb

    Would you drop this “pro-life” charade already? There is as much care for the human “unborn” future as there is for the “unborns” of a pregnant straight dog.

      1. ESV

        John Waters would take it to one of his fantasy salt-of-the-earth rural idylls and shoot it.

        1. nellyb

          puppies are useless in laundries, they’d be drowned unless adopted by good hearted americans for a fee.

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