(Public Accounts Committee chairman John McGuinness, left, and clerk to the committee Ted McEnery this morning)
It’s being reported this morning in several newspapers how the Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan has written to the Public Accounts Committee – which acts as the Dáil’s money-spending watchdog – asking for the return of a “box of evidence” that a Garda whistleblower handed to chair of the committee, John McGuinness.
The “box of evidence”, first reported in the Irish Examiner earlier this month, is believed to contain previously undisclosed information about the alleged widespread quashing of penalty points and subsequent loss of revenue to the State and a Kit Kat.
You’ may recall that on May 15 of this year, an internal garda report into the allegations, led by Assistant Commissioner John Mahoney, concluded there was no such widespread quashing and largely rubbished the whistleblowers’ allegations.
But on October 1 last, the Comptroller and Auditor General found that one in five motorists avoided penalty points because their cases were not pursued.
It also found that, for 2011 and 2012, 2,900 cases were terminated in relation to around 700 vehicles, with three or more cases terminated each.
It’s understood the “box of evidence” contains information that the C&AG did not have at the time of their report.
In his letter to Mr McGuinness, Mr Callinan claims that the whistleblower may have contravened the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003.
The Irish Examiner reports that the Data Commissioner Billy Hawkes wrote to Mr McGuinness on Tuesday, saying “a crime” may have been committed by the whistleblower.
However.
Section 62 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 says a garda may disclose confidential information to“a member of either of the Houses of the Oireachtas where relevant to the proper discharge of the member’s functions”.
Meanwhile, this morning, the Public Accounts Committee clerk Ted McEnry, above, told how the evidence remains unseen by members of the committee and has been sent to the parliamentary legal adviser. The committee is still waiting for this legal advice.
Mr Callinan’s request for the fresh evidence comes ahead of his and a whistleblower’s scheduled appearance before the Public Accounts Committee on January 23.
Yesterday’s Dail debate on the report by the Comptroller & Auditor General concerning Garda management of the fixed charge notice system…
And the sacking of Irish Independent journalist Gemma O’Doherty.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: “Minister, as you know the Comptroller & Auditor General reported on his findings in relation to the fixed charge notice system and the outcome is absolutely shocking. What he has revealed is that because of clearly widespread maladministration and very poor procedures, 1 in 5 motorists facing fixed charge notices are getting off. 1 in 5.
“We’re talking here about 42,000 a year. Half of the summonses that were issued by the Courts in relation to these, half of them were not served. Now this is an absolute crisis. Minister, it’s not good enough to issue circulars, we need to see how the hell this happened.
“And Minister, you know that two Garda whistleblowers brought this wider issue into the public domain last year. You and the Garda Commissioner, I believe sought to undermine their credibility, talked down the numbers that were involved and now we see very clearly that they have been vindicated.
“So Minister, what are you going to do about this? This is a massive crisis of confidence for the public. The 71% of people who pay their fine, who take it on the chin, accept that they did break the speed limits or whatever they had done to break traffic laws. They need to know that the system applies to everybody.
“And Minister, will you now apologise to the two Garda whistleblowers for the attempts by yourself and the Garda Commissioner at that time to discredit them, to undermine the scope of what they were bringing into the public domain and acknowledge that they were right? There was a widespread problem with the system of penalty points in this State and it’s gonna be sorted out.”
Olivia Mitchell: “Deputy Higgins, two minutes.”
Joe Higgins:”Go raibh maith agat, a Cathaoirleach. Minister, the problem is is that there’s a huge contradiction between the report of the Comptroller & Auditor General and the report of the Gardai into the penalty points issue. The Comptroller found 600 repeat offenders with 3 or 4 terminations, the Garda report found a few. The Comptroller found 3,000 statute barred point cases, there was no mention in the Garda report.
“Thousands of fixed penalty notices went missing and were unaccounted for according to the Comptroller, there is no mention in the Garda report.
The Comptroller said that large volumes of notices were terminated by Gardai from outside their areas, the Garda report said three. The Comptroller said the thousands of notices cancelling contravened the rules and regulations and the Garda report said 600. And finally, the Comptroller said €1.2 million lost, the Garda report said a few thousand. Can you explain?
“Isn’t it the case that the whistleblowers are exonerated as truthful and honest in the light of this revelation and another member has left, another subject to sanctions. Will you see that justice now prevails here?
“Finally, another victim of the penalty points debacle, Gemma O’Doherty, a leading investigative journalist with Independent Newspapers was sacked because she uncovered a story that the Garda Commissioner was the beneficiary of cancellation of penalty points and according to the Irish Post, the editor of the Independent who sacked her was also a beneficiary of cancellation. Isn’t that outrageous and doesn’t it smack Minister of a grotesque abuse of power? Will you speak out against this also?”
Olivia Mitchell: “Thanks deputy. The Minister to respond. Four minutes, Minister.”
Minister Alan Shatter: “Let me respond to both deputies but on the last issue that the deputy who spoke raised, the last issue the deputy raised. I’m not privy to the background circumstances to anyone terminating their employment with Independent Newspapers and I’m certainly not going to comment in any way on that.
“I’m glad of the opportunity to comment on the findings of the Comptroller & Auditor General’s report on the Garda fixed charge processing system. I welcome these findings because they confirm what went wrong with the system and what needed to be fixed.
“Broadly speaking, the findings in fact, echo the findings of the examination of the same allegations which was carried out by Assistant Commissioner John O’Mahoney. I published Assistant Commissioner O’Mahoney’s report and also a related report by the Garda Professional Standards Unit earlier this year and referrred them to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.
“Perhaps the key point is that the O’Mahoney report broadly identified the same key issues of concern relating to the operation of the fixed charge processing system identified with the C&AG namely a failure to follow cancellation procedures in a significant number of cases, a lack of adequate record keeping and inconsistency, and in many cases a laxity in accepting justifications in speeding and other road traffic offences.
“Indeed, I previously have made reference to some of the explanations accepted as exotic. There’s absolutely no doubt the findings of the C&AG reinforce both the concerns identified by the O’Mahoney report about weaknesses in the fixed charge notice system and the case for corrective action and action has been taken. Disciplinary proceedings were taken against a number of members of An Garda Síochána.
“A number of others were advised of the absolute necessity to follow correct procedures. A new garda directive, cancellation of fixed charge notices was issued to the entire force on the 30th of August 2013 aimed at significantly tightening up on procedures for cancellation.
“The Garda Commissioner has accepted and will implement significant recommendations by the C&AG on improving the fixed charge notice system and how it interacts with the Courts Service and the driver licencing system. In addition as I previously indicate, I refer the two Garda reports to the Independent Garda Inspectorate for its advice on any further measures which may be required and expect to see a report from the Inspectorate in the near future.
“I welcome the action taken by the Commissioner and his committment to implement the further recommendations we’re addressing this evening. The result will be a fixed charge notice system which is more open and transparent and more robustly operated. This is essential in public confidence in the system in enforcement of road traffic laws being maintained.
“The Garda Siochana along with the Road Safety Authority and other stakeholders have done so much in recent years to improve road safety and reduce fatalities. Everything must be done to maintain that progress. The Garda Commissioner has my full support in the strong action he has taken.
“It is only fair to acknowledge that these reports and their findings and recommendations are a response to allegations of improper cancellation of fixed charge notices. Any fair assessment must conclude on the evidence available that a great many of the most serious allegations have been found to have been utterly without basis including allegations of avoidable road fatalities linked to speeding drivers being improperly let off fixed charge notices and allegations of hundreds of PULSE records being destroyed.
“Perhaps most significantly the members of An Garda Siochana making the allegations rejects all of the findings of the O’Mahoney report and continues to claim that there has been widespread corruption and criminality on the part of senior members of the Garda Siochana. These are exceptionally serious allegations which the O’Mahony report found no basis in fact. my department has written to the member concerned, urging him to come forward with any evidence that he may have to justify these allegations.
“And indeed, it’s open to the member concerned to make an appropriate presentation if he chooses to do so before the Joint Oireachtas Justice Committee but in fact that has not yet occurred. In conclusion, I welcome the finding of the Comptroller & Auditor General. The findings are in line with the findings of the report by Assistant Commissioner O’Mahoney published earlier this year.
“I fully support the Garda Commissioner and the decisive action he has taken on foot of them and I will do my best to ensure that any further co-ordination required between An Garda Siochana and the Courts Services to ensure the efficient enforcement of summonses in the area of traffic offences does take place and that issues should be promptly addressed when they come before the courts but of course that they become available to them, documentation that they require.
“It of course is not available to me, it would be highly inappropriate of me to in anyway interfere with the independent approach taken by the courts, or by particular District Judges in any individual cases that come before them with regard to any charges brought in relation to road traffic offences.”
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn: “Minister, I’m sure you will accept that the 71% of citizens who accepted the fine and took the penalty points on the chin will be appalled to know that you know that up to one in five managed to get away with this. And that is clearly down to the scale of it ye know you did talk down at one stage. the massive scale of it is clearly maladministration. But there are cases which will cause serious concern.
“There are allegations as ye know about judges repeatedly having points written off, serving Gardai, State Solicitors and recently we’ve been informed that senior journalists have had penalty points written off who work to hold Gardai to account. We have the allegation that the journalist Gemma O’Doherty and it is an allegation that she lost her job because of the work she was doing around all of this area. Are you concerned, Minister?
“Will you investigate the reason why at least two senior journalists in the publication mentioned in The Guardian newspaper, covered in the Irish Post newspaper that senior journalists in that newspaper, INM had penalty points written off, will you investigate those circumstances to see were they genuine and they may well have been genuine reasons but the public have a right to know because in the interests of democracy we need to know the answers.
“I’ll wrap up with this. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for your appreciation of this. It is critical for public confidence to be restored that overall there was huge maladministration but clearly there were cases that people that were very powerful and connected had points written off because of who they knew, that is totally wrong. And you should undertake to investigate the circumstances where people would not hold Gardai to account by getting points written off. Examine that.”
Olivia Mitchell: “Deputy Higgins, you have a minute.”
Joe Higgins: “Minister, all is that demanded is that any of us who have incurred penalty points are treated in the same way whether you’re a public figure or a private citizen or anybody else. Now Minister you said that the conclusions of the Comptroller are in line with the findings of the report by the Assistant Commissioner O’Mahoney.
“Clearly that is not the case, Minister and that is easily documented. So I invite you to get your department to go through it with a fine toothcomb to revise your view on that.
“You do say it is only fair to acknowledge that these reports and the findings and recommendations are in response to allegations by whistleblowers, my word. Minister, I want you to go the extra mile. Be generous here. Okay, maybe they didn’t get everything absolutely right but the vast substance of what they said has proved to be absolutely honest and true and they have been victimised.
“And you have to stand up and champion the right of people in vulnerable positions to come out for the public good. So I’m asking you to do that today and to apologise for wrong comments you made yourself castigating these people.”
Olivia Mitchell: “Thanks Deputy. Minster to respond.”
Alan Shatter: “Can I firstly say to Deputy Higgins, no one has been victimised, no one has been victimised, Deputy. And there is no basis for alleging that anybody has been victimised. The allegations that were made were taken very seriously.
“The allegations that were made included allegations that a number of road fatalities in which people lost their lives were a consequence of fixed notice charges being cancelled. That was clearly, on a very detailed basis, established to be untrue.
“Such allegations could have caused a great deal of stress to families, already distressed, as a consequence of losing a loved one. Despite the very detailed addressing of those matters, in a report that’s before the Joint Oireachtas Justice committee, that Deputy Mac Lochlainn has access to, and others have access to this information, because I published it.
“Despite that, the individuals who raised these issues are adamantly insisting that they disagree with the contents of that report. The allegations alleged widespread corruption and conspiracy in An Garda Síochána. There’s absolutely no doubt there’s been administrative and bureaucratic failings.
“I’ve also no doubt that there’s been a number of fixed notice charges cancelled which based on the background circumstances, as detailed in the reports, were absolutely justified. And most of us, I think everyone would stand by them. And certainly there were some decisions that I, deliberately, described as exotic, that I would question.
“And indeed that is one of the reasons why the Garda Commissioner has changed the procedures and provided for oversight. And he made an initial statement on this when the original reports were published and a very detailed new guidelines were published which do amend the previous guidelines.
“As people, it was suggested earlier today in this house, that they’re just reproducing the same, the same guidelines all over again. They’re not. They address matters in a way to ensure there’s proper oversight and only decisions are made where appropriate and that there’s transparency and to ensure that everyone is treated equally.
“Because it is my view: It doesn’t matter who you are, you must be treated equally. And, in the context, indeed it could be said that people who are in prominent positions or members of this house, there’s, they’re going to be treated less than equally because there’s an additional level of, of..there’s a particular layer in the new guidelines which ensures that any applications made by them for cancellation are dealt at a higher level with An Garda Síochána. And there’s complete transparency, everything is monitored. And I’m very happy with that.
“So let me just say, that in conclusion, in so far as individuals who raised issues, are alleging that the Garda reports published are untrue, let them bring forward the chapter and verse and proof of that. I’m open to being convinced, but they haven’t done so. Indeed, having engaged with members of this House, and published material, they didn’t cooperate with the Garda investigations that took place.
“Now I don’t know why that is and there’s no question deputy, of anyone, of anyone being victimised. And could I conclude by saying, it is important to keep, and I’m saying this particularly to Deputy Mac Lochlainn, who raised the issue, to keep cancellations in perspective because both the Garda and C&AG reports are consistent in showing the level of cancellation of Fixed Charge Notices to be around 5%, meaning that 95% of Fixed Charge Notices have been processed correctly.
“And, indeed, within that 5%, 50% of those, there was absolutely irrefutable evidence, regarding 50% of those, there were indisputable reasons to cancel them: wrong people received Fixed Charge Notices; the registration number, for example, photographed, turned out to be different to the car owned by an individual.
“So whereas it’s true the C&AG report did identify some weaknesses in the process, particularly in enforcement notices, I’m glad that the Garda Commissioner is taking action in this area.
“And you can assume that I will continue to monitor, to ensure that matters are dealt with appropriately and I have no doubt, and I’m concluding finally Cathaoirleach, and thank you for your patience, I’ve no doubt that the Garda Inspectorate will keep oversight over this area so that everyone in this house is now satisfied the system is fair, is operating efficiently and appropriately.”
Yesterday the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General released its Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2012.
Chapter seven of the report deals with the Management of the Fixed Charge Notice System in 2011 and 2012, above.
The C&AG became interested in this area after a garda, unnamed in the report, contacted the C&AG seeking a meeting to discuss their concerns about the operation of the fixed charge notice system.
The garda gave the C&AG a file of information relating to around 4,000 cases where it appeared fixed charge notices were cancelled, resulting in drivers avoiding penalty points and a loss to the Exchequer. The file showed that multiple fixed charge notices were cancelled for some individuals.
The garda, who gave the C&AG the file, alleged that, in many cases, the notices were cancelled corruptly and illegally.
The garda also alleged a number of people who benefited from (one or more) cancellations of notices went on to commit further offences.
Some of these offences, it was alleged, resulted in deaths and/or injury to themselves and/or third parties.Continue reading →
(From top: Protest at INM and journalist Gemma O’Doherty, Irish Independent report from April and Stephen Rae, group editor of the Independent titles)
You may recall a post concerning the recent dismissal from the Irish Independent of journalist Gemma O’Doherty.
The Senior Features writer and Travel Editor was usually in receipt of high praise from her editors.
But this changed after she discovered in April that Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan was caught speeding while driving his private car, and his penalty points subsequently quashed.
Her then boss Rae reportedly called O’Doherty a ‘rogue reporter’ for calling to Callinan’s house to confirm details in the story.
Some weeks after the story appeared managing director Declan Carlyle informed O’Doherty that her job was gone.
It has since emerged that among a list of high-profile names who have had points quashed is a Stephen Rae, who was reportedly caught speeding in Belfield, Dublin on the morning of November 5, 2009, and whose two points were subsequently terminated by gardai with no reason given.
[We have contacted Stephen Rea to clarify if this was indeed him. He has not responded and we offer him a right of reply]
The cancellation of fixed charge notices,and subsequently penalty points – other than for fire brigade drivers, ambulance drivers, on-duty Gardaí or people driving a car under the direction of a Garda – is not provided for in Irish law.
Gardaí have been using an ‘ad-hoc’ policy of discretion in relation to terminating penalty points which has no statutory basis.
Meanwhile, separately, O’Doherty was also investigating examples of summonses not being served on high-profile people from political, media, sports and legal circles when she got fired.
On May 9, she wrote how three summonses for three different motoring offences were not served on Westmeath Fianna Fáil TD Robert Troy.
And she was compiling a story in relation to the case of summonses not being served against two high-profile people in legal circles when she was dismissed by INM.
Agriculture Minister Simon Coveney said he was “very embarrassed” after he had a summons for speeding struck out in the District Court. A car registered to him was clocked by a speed camera van in Cobh in May of last year traveling at 71kph in a 60kph zone.
Mr Coveney told the court that he was in the car on the night but that it was driven by his professional driver.
Luke Ming Flanagan, Clare Daly and Mick Wallace in Buswell’s Hotel, Dublin, earlier calling for for an independent inquiry into the penalty points issue.
The independent TDs propose a Private Members’ Bill in the Dail, before it breaks for the Summer, “relating to the structure on policing in Ireland and weaknesses in the powers and independence of the gardai, particularly related to the issue of penalty points”.
On May 5, the Sunday Independent reported how the original allegations made by the penalty points’ whistleblowers included details that some motorists, who were involved in fatal accidents, had penalty points quashed both before and after the fatal accidents.
However, today’s report into the allegations have found that this was not the case.
RTÉ reports:
“The garda report into the quashing of penalty points has found that a number of officers did not follow proper procedures and guidelines.
Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has confirmed that penalty points were not cancelled for motorists who had previously been involved in fatal road traffic incidents.”
“The report is due to be published by Minister for Justice Alan Shatter this afternoon.”
“Those who had penalty points cancelled, and the gardaí involved, will not be identified.”
“The report also found no evidence of garda corruption or widespread abuse of garda discretion and concluded that no gardaí gained financially or otherwise because of their actions.”
“Disciplinary proceedings are being taken against a small number of superintendents and inspectors.”
Garda whistleblower John Wilson, above, spoke to Pat Kenny this morning about the imminent garda report into the quashing of penalty points.
Pat Kenny: “The reason that Clare Daly and Co mentioned all of this in the Dáil chamber was because they got the information from whistleblowers. I’m joined by one of the whistleblowers, John Wilson, who had more than 30 years service in the Gardaí before, he says, he was forced to retire, recently. John, good morning.”
John Wilson: “Good morning, Pat.”
Kenny: “Now, we don’t know the detail of this report. Mick Wallace described it earlier as a ‘whitewash’. But we’ve been promised it will be transparent. What is your reaction to, if you like, the last chapter in your particular personal saga.”
Wilson: “Well, Pat. I initially made a complaint last, through the Garda Confidential Recipient back last March, that’s the Garda whistleblower, Mr Oliver Connolly. And, Mr Connolly handed that complaint to the Garda Commissioner. He informed the Ombudsman on the fourth of April of last year. And my initial allegations, that refered to a small number of, of tickets, fixed charge penalty notices that had been terminated by senior Garda officers. And I was concerned about the manner in which those tickets had been terminated. And I awaited with interest for a response from the Garda Commissioner and weeks turned into months and I got no feedback, I got no response. So, I then contacted Clare Daly, a member of the Oireachtas, to voice my concerns to her. And I outlined, I outlined a large number, I outlined information, a large number of fixed charges, penalty notices that had been, in my opinion, been corruptly terminated by senior Gardaí.”
Kenny: “Now, when you say corruptly terminated. You don’t, well we think is in the report that where there’s no paper trail, where there’s no rationale offered for the quashing of penalty points, that the senior Gardaí involved, and superintendents and inspectors may face disciplinary procedures but if there is a paper trail, if there is a rationale, you know ‘my wife is pregnant, so I’m speeding on my way to the maternity hospital, bla, bla, bla’, where there is a paper trail. You have to say the Gardaí, I may not agree with his or her discretion, but they have that power and it was legally used.”
Wilson: “Pat, in relation to the discretion, you know, the matter of discretion. I heard Mr Sherry this morning talking about discretion and he gave a couple of examples there, in relation to the people with no tax and whatever. You know, I mean, I mean, as I’ve said, I totally agree, and I would always agree. And I mean it’s a good thing in a democracy that there are police force has a modicum of discretion. Now, you see, if I stopped Pat Kenny on a motorway, doing 150 kilometres an hour. And I decide, I say ‘Pat, for god’s sake, you know, will…”
Kenny: “Slow down.”
Wilson: “Will you go a bit easier, Pat, you know, and I’d let you go, right. That’s discretion, Pat. That’s a guard. That’s a Garda Wilson using their discretion.”
Kenny: “Yeah.”
Wilson: “But if I decide that Pat Kenny’s speed warrants the issue of a fixed charge penalty notice, once I, once a guard issues that notice, the only person that can challenge, can challenge the guard’s authority is a member of the judiciary, a judge. So, I mean, what has happened in many cases, that I reported, you had guards doing their job, they were detecting people speeding, using mobile phones or whatever, they lawfully issued fixed charge penalty notices. And the person on the seat of the fixed charge penalty notice was..con..contacted senior Gardaí, behind the back of the original, of the guard and the tickets were subsequently terminated. Right? That, in effect, was undermining the authority of the guards, who were carrying out their duty as such and trying to save people’s lives…”
Kenny: “Yeah. The problem is and I have in front of me the legally possible basis for cancelling penalty points. This is an extract from the Minister for Justice’s speech to the Dáil in September and he says: “Following the introduction of fixed charges, An Garda Síochána established a policy and procedures on the termination/cancellation of fixed charge notices, set out in the fixed charge processing system, full user manual policies procedures, third edition, 2005. In essence, the policy and procedures provides authority to District Officers/Inspector Acting District Officer and the Inspector Fixed Charge Processing Office to cancel fixed charge notices with a policy and procedure framed around legislative exceptions contained in road traffic legislation and regulations, in conjunction with the specific guidelines, issued by the Director of Public Prosecutions.” So, let me just ask you this because it would appear from this that there would be no point in going to the ordinary guard on the motorcycle, in the Traffic Corps, who gives you these points because he doesn’t have the power to terminate them or cancel them, it’s the District Officer or Inspector Acting, so, you know, there would be no point in going to the ordinary guard, that’s why they go above his, or her, head.”
Wilson: “First of all, first of all, Pat, it needs to be clarified that, the fact that a Garda policy is issued, it doesn’t necessarily make it legal. It’s not a legal document. I mean unless it’s a statutory instrument backing it up and, in my opinion, in my opinion, what’s been happening is totally unlawful. The situation is Pat that, I mean, if you were, if you were hurrying to, hurrying into hospital with your wife or whatever, something, I mean for god’s sake Pat, I mean, you know, I mean if that’s a genuine case, you know what I mean, it’d be kind of, you know, if somebody has a ticket, has a ticket cancelled it in those circumstances, fine. But Pat. What’s been happening, and what has happened over the last number of years is the fact that if you have connections with a guard right?”
Kenny: “Yeah.”
Wilson: “I could tell you, Pat that every town in this country right? There are people who have benefited from knowing senior Gardaí right? Basically speaking they’ve got away with everything. The Chris Huhne case in England and it’s been highlighted, it’s been highlighted recently and both himself and his wife got a term of imprisonment for perverting the course of justice, right? Pat, the Chris Huhne case would never happen in this country. Chris Huhne, if he’d been a public representative, would have contacted a garda officer and the matter would have been looked after. You know what I mean? We’re talking about whole scale, a whole scale termination. You know. I mean if you go an ask the ordinary person, Pat who’ve had, who have had penalty points issued to them. Those people have no facility of having a ticket terminated. I can tell you Pat, now and I know you’re in…of time, over the last 30 years, at any time, and I’m going to use this just, I’m going to use the figure of 100 as a, as just an example. I could have prosecuted let’s say 100 people for various offences, for speeding, for kind of talking on mobile phones while driving.”
Kenny: “Yeah.”
Wilson: “98 of those people, Pat, might have had connections and I might have got phonecalls in relation to them. I could have gone into the witness box in any district court in this country, I could have, I could have struck out 98 of those summonses, Pat. I could have proceeded against the two people who have no connections. I could have stepped out and those people would have been convicted and got their penalty points, and got their fines. I could have then stepped out of the witness box, Pat, and neither the judge nor any senior garda officer, or anybody else would question me in relation to why I struck out 98 summonses, right? Now I could tell you Pat that this is a scandal. You cannot have guards investigating guards, Pat. It doesn’t make sense. Now, and as I said, I mean I’m calling for an independent investigation into the allegations that I have made and into the allegations that my colleague has made. It doesn’t have to take six months or a year, and I know in this country, Pat, when people mention and independent inquiry.”
Kenny: “Indeed.”
Wilson: “..that they start panicking over the cost or whatever. But a senior, I mean a High Court judge right, to examine and to carry out a proper independent inquiry into the allegations that I’ve made and into the allegations my colleague has made.”
Kenny: “Right. Well there’ll be a lot more about this, John, later on in the day, when the report is actually published and whether that will change your mind or not, I don’t know. I suspect it won’t. But John, thank you very much for joining us on the line this morning.”
(Public Accounts Committee chairman John McGuinness, left, and clerk to the committee Ted McEnery this morning)
