Tag Archives: Mary Lou McDonald

Gulp.

Earlier: Making Do

This afternoon.

Athlone, County Westmeath.

Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald is meeting with residents in Westmeath affected by flooding and inspecting the damage caused by the overflow in the River Shannon and the preparations for the expected increase in water levels in the coming days.

Earlier: Shadowy Figures

Rollingnews

Last night.

Phoenix Park, Dublin.

Leo Varadkar leaves Aras an Uachtarain after handing in his resignation as Taoiseach to President Michael D Higgins (left).

Mr. Varadkar will continue as acting taoiseach until the Dáil elects a new government.

Varadkar, Martin agree to meet next week for exploratory talks (RTÉ)

Rollingnews

Meanwhile…

Last night.

Kildare Street, Dublin 2

Leader of Sinn Fein President Mary Lou McDonald TD leaving Leinster House having got the most votes over other leaders to become Taoiseach but falling short of the required amount.

Mary Lou McDonald Receives Most Dáil Votes For Taoiseach (Newstalk)

Rollingnews

This morning.

Via Extra.ie:

Almost half of Irish people want Mary Lou McDonald to be the next Taoiseach, according to an Amarach research poll of 1040 Irish adults conducted for Extra.ie on February 16.

…The 50-year-old Sinn Fein leader was dramatically more popular among younger voters compared to both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael’s leaders — a staggering 52% of those under 35 polled said that they would like to see the president of Sinn Fein as the head of the Irish government.

Almost half of Irish people now want Mary Lou McDonald as Taoiseach — (Extra.ie)

Meanwhile…

 

When it comes to forming a new government, Sinn Fein combined with Fianna Fail is the preferred option for Irish voters, according to an Extra.ie poll.

The poll, carried out by amarach research, said for coalition formation, 31% of those polled would prefer to see a Fianna Fáil/Sinn Féin combination while 30% would like to see a Fianna Fáil/Fine Gael.

Just 9% wanted a Fine Gael/Sinn Féin government while 30% of people wanted a coalition that didn’t involve those three options. The poll, conducted on Monday, indicates that Sinn Féin would benefit more than any other party if there was a second election and receive an additional 10.5% of first preference votes.

Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail the coalition of choice for Irish voters — (Extra.ie)


From top:  Fianna Fáil MEP Billy Kelleher, Independent TD Denis Naughten, Fine Gael TD Simon Harris  and Former deputy leader of Fianna Fáil Mary O’Rourke

This morning.

Official Ireland’s freak out continues.

On RTÉ’s Today With Seán O’Rourke.

Mr O’Rourke spoke to a number of politicians and former politicians, including former deputy leader of Fianna Fáil Mary O’Rourke; Fianna Fáil MEP Billy Kelleher; Independent TD Denis Naughten and Fine Gael TD Simon Harris.

Listeners were also informed that RTÉ had requested someone from Sinn Féin to join the show but this did not happen.

The panel discussion followed Fianna Fáil taking 38 Dáil seats (which includes the seat of the Ceann Comhairle); Sinn Féin 37; Fine Gael 35; Independents/Others 21; Green Party 12; Labour 6; Social Democrats 6; and Solidarity/People Before Profit 5, in the general election.

Former deputy leader of Fianna Fáil Mary O’Rourke said:

“Now, the momentum right now is with the Sinn Féin party and its leadership as they go around to gather like-minded people…”

“My belief now is that when that day comes [the election of a Taoiseach], when, if Mary Lou McDonald will be put forward as the leader of her party for the role of Taoiseach that Fianna Fáil should not participate in that vote…”

“…But for me now, I’m quite clear and I want it, to say it, we stick with Micheál Martin because for me and for many of my ilk, he is the person who is still the best to lead us out of the electoral difficulties in which we now find ourselves. You didn’t ask me about that but I’m telling you that.”

Fianna Fáil MEP Billy Kelleher said:

“The idea that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael would find some small party and coalesce in advance of giving the process of the people’s will an opportunity to play out would simply be an affront to democracy. I mean, we have to accept that Sinn Féin has 37 seats. It’s the largest popular vote.

“Mary Lou McDonald has said quite clearly she wants to put together a coalition that would exclude Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael and, you know, there’s an obligation on her to try and ensure…”

“…if Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael somehow got together today or tomorrow, brought in a few Independents, and rammed through into Government, what do you think would be said by Sinn Féin and everybody else and the public at large…”

Independent TD Denis Naughten, who was re-elected in Roscommon/Galway on the fifth count, said:

“The reality is that no one’s manifesto got a clear mandate from the people whether it was the Sinn Féin manifesto, the Fianna Fáil manifesto, the Fine Gael manifesto or any manifesto.

“And I believe what needs to happen in this stage is to allow time for the parties to consult with their own organisations, that they should sit down, everyone, around a single table and negotiate a national programme for Government that would take in the best elements of the various manifestos.

“Because the one thing that I got on the doorsteps from people is that they’re sick and tired of the political bickering that has been going on. They want to see politicians collectively coming together and implement practical solutions in terms of health, housing, regional balance, agriculture and so forth…”

“…yes, this is a hung parliament so to speak that we now have as a result of the vote of the electorate but that’s what the electorate voted for. The responsibility is on us now to form an operational government.”

Former Minister for Health Fine Gael TD Simon Harris, who was re-elected in Wicklow last night on the 15th count, said:

“I agree with Billy Kelleher on this. That the process should be that Mary Lou McDonald is the leader of the largest party, who got the most votes in the election. She should now do what she said she was going to do.

“She made a lot of promises, a lot of commitments, let her off now and see if she can try and form a Government.

“I wish her well in that regard.

“…if she can’t, if she can’t, I do think there’s an obligation on the centre of Irish politics, which still won a hell of a lot of votes by the way. You would think from some of the media commentary that everybody voted Sinn Féin – 76% of people did not vote for Sinn Féin to be in Government.”

Asked if he thinks Leo Varadkar should step down as leader of Fine Gael, Mr Harris said:

“Absolutely not…our Taoiseach has performed extremely well, he performed very well as leader, he did extremely well in the debates…”

“…this was a very difficult election. It was a very difficult election for all parties but Sinn Féin. And Leo Varadkar is the leader of Fine Gael and will continue to be the leader of Fine Gael and whether in Government or in opposition, he’ll continue to promote our policies and values.”

Listen back in full here

This afternoon.

RDS. Ballsbridge, Dublin 4.

With her party heading for 30-36 seats, Sinn Fein President Mary Lou McDonald (left) with Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister Michelle O’Neill arrives at the Generel Election 2020 greater Dublin count centre.

More as we get it.

Earlier: Sinn When You’re Winning

Pic: Vanessa Foran



From top: Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald; Virgin Media News’ Colette Fitzpatrick; Virgin Media News last night

Last night.

On Virgin Media News, broadcaster Colette Fitzpatrick interviewed Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald.

It follow Sinn Féin’s Conor Murphy, who is Minister for Finance in the North, apologising to the family of Paul Quinn who was murdered at the age of 21 in Monaghan 13 years ago.

In 2007 Mr Murphy told BBC Spotlight that Mr Quinn was involved in criminality.

From the interview…

Colette Fitzpatrick: “Your party colleague Conor Murphy issued a statement this afternoon saying his remarks about Paul Quinn are a matter of regret. He said he was sorry and that they added to the grief for that family and what they felt and he wanted to apologise for that. ‘A matter of regret’. Does that go in anywhere near being enough for an apology for Breege Quinn and her family?”

Mary Lou McDonald: “Well, Breege Quinn and the family made very plain that they wanted the record set straight in respect of their son, their son who received a really, really brutal death at the hands of criminals and they felt very aggrieved. And that grief has endured over a long number of years and Breege Quinn was very clear that she wished a retraction and an apology and that it would be done publicly and on the public record.”

Fitzpatrick: “‘A matter of regret’ for saying that her murdered son was involved in smuggling and criminality…”

McDonald: “Well it’s a full withdrawal and retraction of the comments and a very sincere apology. I know I hear, earlier today, Colette, I heard Breege speaking on the radio. I know that she indicated that she had taken some comfort from the words that I had to say on the previous evening [on RTÉ’s Prime Time debate] and I hope that they take now some comfort from this complete retraction and sincere apology.”

Fitzpatrick: “Ok, how would you categorise his remarks? What would you call them? Would you say they were abhorrent? What he said about Paul Quinn.”

McDonald: “I think that they were extremely hurtful, extremely hurtful at the time when they had lost their son and they were traumatised to lose their son so brutally and so suddenly.”

Fitzpatrick: “You don’t think they were abhorrent?”

McDonald: “I think they were clearly abhorrent for the Quinn family, of course they were, Colette. I mean, I’m not, the commentary has been entirely withdrawn and apologised for and the reason for that is because the comments were wrong. At the time when this murder occured there was commentary around criminality and activities up around the Border but it is entirely wrong to suggest that Paul was in any way implicated.”

Fitzpatrick: “Ok, so you agree the comments were abhorrent. Do you think Conor Murphy should now go to the gardaí and the PSNI and tell them who the men were that he spoke to? Cause he says he spoke to men in the IRA about this. Give them the names.”

McDonald: “Well, Conor, at the time, spoke to both the gardaí and the PSNI at the time he was an elected MP for the area.”

Fitzpatrick: “Did he give them names though, Mary Lou?”

McDonald: “I don’t know, I wasn’t privy to the conversation. But you can be sure that Conor or anybody else is duty-bound to cooperate with what is an ongoing investigation.”

Fitzpatrick: “So have you asked him, have you spoken to him today and have you asked him to go the gardai and the PSNI to give them those names?”

McDonald: “Colette, it’s not necessary for me to ask Conor to do that.”

Fitzpatrick: “So you haven’t asked him?”

McDonald: “Conor has already, back when this happened, spoken to the gardai and the PSNI. And it’s for the gardai and the PSNI to advance this investigation. It’s not for me and it’s not…”

Fitzpatrick: “Yeah, but there’s a distinction, Mary Lou, between speaking to the gardai and the PSNI and giving the gardai and the PSNI the names of the men that he says he spoke to in the IRA.”

McDonald: “At the time he said that he spoke to republicans in the area because there was a speculation obviously as to who was responsible for this absolutely horrendous crime. He spoke to local republicans and they said that there was no republican involvement. But Colette, let me just repeat, in any of these investigations, it is the duty and at the discretion of the PSNI and the Garda Síochána to pursue their lines of investigation.”

Fitzpatrick: “I’m just going to ask you one final time.”

McDonald: “Sure.”

Fitzpatrick: “Will you ask Conor Murphy to give the names of those men to the gardai and the PSNI? It’s a yes or no. Will you ask him to do that?”

McDonald: “It’s actually not a yes or a no, Colette, with all due respect. It is, my position is that the investigation must be cooperated with. I mean there’s no ambiguity, there’s no lack…”

Fitzpatrick: “Well why wouldn’t you ask him to do that?”

McDonald: “Because he has spoken to the authorities already. You are inferring that in some way – and I think it’s quite unfair, if I might say so – that Conor is in some way obstructing an investigation. He’s not. At the time…”

Fitzpatrick: “But if he doesn’t give the gardai and the PSNI the names of the men he spoke to, he might possibly be obstructing that investigation.”

McDonald: “I don’t accept that. I think that if Conor or anybody else has information that is material to finding those that carried out this dastardly murder, of course they need to bring information forward. I don’t have to say that to Conor, that is as a matter of course. For Conor Murphy or for anybody else for that matter.”

Fitzpatrick: “Have you spoken to Breege Quinn yourself?”

McDonald: “I haven’t.”

Fitzpatrick:  “Are you going to?”

McDonald: “I haven’t…well, if Breege wishes to speak to me, I would be more than happy to…”

Fitzpatrick:  “She has said she wants to speak to you.”

McDonald: “Well that’s…I will speak to her so.”

Fitzpatrick:  “When you leave this studio, could you pick up the phone and talk to her?”

McDonald: “Well I don’t have a telephone number for her.”

Fitzpatrick: “Every journalist in the country has her telephone number.”

McDonald: “Certainly if I am provided with a telephone number, I’ll be more than happy to speak to her.”

Fitzpatrick:  “You’re going to call her? You’ll call her when you leave this studio?”

McDonald: “Yes.”

Fitzpatrick:  “Okay. What happened to Paul Quinn on the night. He was lured into a barn in Co Monaghan and when he got there, ten or more men beat him with an iron and nail-studded bar for upwards of half an hour. His friends that were there and being held hostage at the time said they could hear the bars bouncing off him. Every single major bone in his body was broken. He was screaming and crying in agony. Horrific injuries, an excruciating death. He died two hours later in hospital. His mother said at the time his hands were so badly beaten, she couldn’t even wrap rosary beads around his fingers as he lay in the coffin. And all of that, nine years after the Good Friday Agreement.”

McDonald: “The death that Paul Quinn had was absolutely horrific. There aren’t words to describe the horror of that, of that murder.”

Fitzpatrick: “Gerry Adams made similar comments about Paul Quinn. Would you ask him to withdraw his remarks?”

McDonald: “Well look, the family specifically took issue with the remarks that Conor had made because they specifically implied – wrongly – that Paul was involved in criminality. I think other commentary..”

Fitzpatrick:  “As did Gerry Adams’ remarks…”

McDonald: “Well people – Gerry made comments, others made comments also.”

Fitzpatrick: “He said criminality as well.”

McDonald: “Well people made comments about criminality up around the Border region. I don’t think the comments were quite as explicit. I mean, at the time, the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern also made commentary.”

[On November 14, 2007, the then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern told the Dáil: “We have received a number of reports from the Garda and secondhand from the PSNI, and both of them match at this stage, that this action was due to criminality. I accept issues arise about where these people came from in the past, what they did previously and the fact that the format of the killing had a resemblance to what happened in the past. That has been in every newspaper in Northern Ireland in recent weeks. Our intelligence and information is that this was not the work of the provisional republican movement and that it was not sanctioned or condoned by it or by the Sinn Féin leadership.”

[On December 18, 2007, Mr Ahern told the Dáil: “In dealing with questions in this House and elsewhere, I shared certain information about the lines of inquiry being pursued and in speaking about criminality I was responding to questions asked on whether the murder had a political motivation or implications for the Northern Ireland Executive.

“I did not in any way intend to make an issue out of the character of Paul Quinn and I am happy to make that clear to the House.

“It remains the case that no information is available to me from the Garda Commissioner to suggest this attack was authorised or sanctioned by the IRA, a question I am continually asked outside the House….I am glad to state what the Minister told the family yesterday, that we have no evidence whatsoever that Paul Quinn was involved in criminal activity.”]

Fitzpatrick:  “I’ll tell you exactly what Gerry Adams said. He said ‘linked to fuel smuggling and criminal activity’, that’s what he said Paul’s Quinn murder was, ‘linked to fuel smuggling and criminal activity’.”

McDonald: “Yes and others made those remarks as well. I think – and I can’t pretend to speak on behalf of the family – but I think what they took exception and hurt from what Conor said is that it was more explicit in relation to Paul. And Colette, I’m not trying to explain of this away: the remarks have been withdrawn. That was the correct thing to do.”

Fitzpatrick:  “But it has taken 13 years for this to happen. Why has this taken so long?”

McDonald: “It shouldn’t have taken so long.”

Fitzpatrick:  “Why suddenly has Conor Murphy apologised in the middle of an election campaign?”

McDonald: “It shouldn’t have taken 13 years, these matters should have been clarified and the Quinn family should have been given that easement a long, long time ago.”

Fitzpatrick: “You were asked about this a number of times over the last couple of days and you haven’t dealt with it until today, or Conor Murphy hasn’t dealt with it. And the issue is: Was someone telling you what to do? Was someone advising you, on this, on what to say or do? Were you taking instructions from anybody on this?”

McDonald: “Absolutely not, Colette. Absolutely not.”

Fitzpatrick: “Are you sure?”

McDonald: “I am absolutely certain of that point. Breege Quinn was on the RTE airwaves. She made her position clear. I was then subsequently, because we are in an election campaign, I was asked on the matter naturally. And I moved to speak… ”

Fitzpatrick: “Because the charge is that there are shadowy figures…”

McDonald: “That charge is entirely…”

Fitzpatrick: “…telling you and Michelle O’Neill what to do.”

McDonald: “And do you actually believe that, Colette?”

Fitzpatrick: “It’s not for me say whether I believe that or not. That’s the charge that’s been laid against you and Michelle O’Neill.”

McDonald: “Let me refute, in the strongest terms, that charge. Nobody tells me what to do. Nobody pulls my strings or Michelle O’Neill’s. We are entirely capable of arriving at decisions and making our own decisions. I know my own mind, I also know right from wrong and I make my own decisions.”

Fitzpatrick:  “The PSNI said that the IRA Army Council still retains an oversight of Sinn Féin. They said that back in the…”

McDonald: “Well they’re wrong. That is entirely, entirely farcical. And can I just say to you, as it happens, yesterday, Michelle O’Neill in the North, the Joint First Minister, was actually present at the beginning of recruitment campaign for the PSNI because the policing service has to be representative – sorry [as she was being interrupted] – of the community that it serves. So those remarks are wholly wrong and wholly inaccurate.”

Fitzpatrick: “Ok.”

Yesterday: How Was It For You [Updated]

Previously: Will I Get The Coronavirus If I Vote Sinn Féin?

Clockwise from top left: Alison OConnor, Fionnan Sheahan, Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald and RTÉ’s Seán O’Rourke;

This morning.

On RTÉ Radio One’s Today with Seán O’Rourke.

Ireland editor of the Irish Independent Fionnan Sheahan, Irish Examiner columnist Alison O’Connor and RTÉ’s Niamh Lyons joined Mr O’Rourke to discuss last night’s leaders’ debate on RTÉ’s Prime Time.

The panel discussion followed Mr O’Rourke interviewing Breege Quinn about the murder of her 21-year-old son Paul Quinn in Monaghan in 2007, following comments made by Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald during last night’s debate.

During the interview with Ms Quinn, she said Sinn Féin’s Minister for Finance in the North Conor Murphy should resign or be stood down as minister.

Following this, Mr O’Rourke asked the panelists how the matter might effect the election “in the last three crucial days”.

Alison O’Connor: “Well I suppose, Seán. First of all, I mean, that Breege Quinn, I mean, what, I found myself really moved by her interview and almost close to tears at times. What she’s been through, her immense dignity and even where she said, at the end, two wrongs not making a right.

“There are a lot of people as we know who want to vote Sinn Féin in this election. People who would not have considered it before and it’s for understandable reasons because they say want change and they’re not expecting to get that change from Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

“But I think that, in a funny sort of a way, it’s this blowing up at this time is not a bad thing. Because this is part and parcel of Sinn Féin’s history and their past and that we see this playing out. People will be able to make, I believe, a fully informed choice.

“And in a way, it gets to the heart, I mean this is something that happened 13 years ago. And Mary Lou McDonald is implying, saying, whatever, that in that space of time and even in more recent times, I mean, it has come up, Mrs Quinn was on [RTÉ’s] Drivetime the other day as well, that she didn’t have either then, now or in the last couple of years a full conversation with Conor Murphy, a very senior member of her party, to see where exactly things stand.

“Either a) that just doesn’t have credibility or b) shockingly, it’s very far down the list of the party’s priorities. And I would also say, as someone who observes, has been observing politics for a long time, this is the bit that fascinates me. If Sinn Féin are in Government, in a coalition arrangement, and we’ll say that was actually an interview on Prime Time last night, and Mary Lou McDonald was a minister and she was asked that question by Miriam O’Callaghan and gave that unsatisfactory an answer, how that plays, how we’ll say the Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael side of the house would cope would that. And the fall-out from that sort of thing.

“And my final point as well then is, just watching it as a viewer last night, I thought Miriam O’Callaghan did magnificently with the questioning. Why didn’t Leo Varadkar and Micheál Martin, I thought, in terms of, just purely point scoring which it seems wrong to bring that level of it to this conversation, did not pile in, did not ask any questions?”

O’Rourke: “Well, perhaps because they felt dignity required and also the political reality, nothing needed to be said. Fionnan Sheahan, I suppose when it came to other aspects of law and order and the ugly side of our relatively recent history, the question of the Special Criminal Court was one that Mary Lou McDonald struggled on as well?”

Fionnan Sheahan: “Yeah you’re colleague Bryan Dobson has a three-question rule. He says on TV, when you ask somebody a question three times and they haven’t answered it, the viewer at home can quite clearly see ‘well, they’re not answering the question’. Miriam O’Callaghan went further, she asked the question four times and Mary Lou McDonald failed to answer that question about the Special Criminal Court.

“Sinn Féin’s position now is that they say they want to review the Special Criminal Court. They have opposed the Offences Against The State Act every time it has come up in the Dáil over the past generation which implies that they are opposed to the Special Criminal Court. So Mary Lou McDonald could not come out with a straight-forward [inaudible] last night, saying ‘I’m in favour of the Special Criminal Court’ which not only affects prosecutions of alleged members of a terrorist organisation but also is a key element of combatting gangland crime.

“So I mean, in effect, you are seeing in a situation like the murder of Paul Quinn, north of the border. However there are situations where is nigh impossible to get witnesses into the witness box and that’s why we…”

O’Rourke: “I suppose looking at this, Niamh Lyons, like all political change, sorry, like a lot of political change, it has to be done crab-like. That’s how they got to the ceasefire over a quarter of a century ago and it was interesting looking at Eoin Ó Broin on the Virgin Media analysis, the post-match analysis, he was saying, just by way of clarification on that, Sinn Féin, yes they want a review of the courts and they want it done by a senior judicial figure and they will accept the outcome. So if that recommendation is the Special Criminal Court stays, they’re happy for it to say.”

Niamh Lyons: “Yeah and there has been criticism of the Special Criminal Court by the likes of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties,  Amnesty International. I think the issue here, for Mary Lou McDonald, is that she wanted to be front and centre in that debate last night. She put herself up there, playing the senior hurling but she wasn’t at the match at all.

“And this is where I suppose the rubber hits the road for her candidacy. You know, when you hear her, that accusation that, you know, who runs Sinn Féin? On that issue and the Special Criminal Court and on the issue of Paul Quinn, she’s unable to pivot in her own position and if you go on the Sinn Féin website, you’ll see a picture of Mary Lou, you’ll see Pearse Doherty, Michelle O’Neill and Conor Murphy.

“He’s one of the top four people in the party. He’s their lead negotiator. So why is she not allowed pivot away from something that he has previously said. You know, why is she so on the backfoot on this issue. Why does she sit down in front of Bryan Dobson, not knowing that not only had Conor Murphy made those claims but Gerry Adams in the past has made those claims. Why did she not check it out? Is she following a particular line?”

O’Connor: “I mean that’s the heart of it. This is a woman at the peak of her…this is a woman at the peak of her political powers right…”

Talk over each other

O’Rourke: ‘But is there a light-touch relationship with the truth? You know, I mean she, in this studio, sitting where Fionnan is sitting, she said she believed Gerry Adams when he said he wasn’t a member of the IRA.”

O’Connor: “Actually Seán, I’m trying to…she didn’t quite say that. She said something like ‘you accept’…because I remember hearing that interview, I’m trying to remember her wording now, it was a very particular wording and…of course the criminal court was going to come up. I’ve heard her address it previously in the campaign. Of course the Quinn story was going to come up. So I find it very interesting, I didn’t see Eoin Ó Broin last night.

“So Eoin Ó Broin, who’s of lesser standing, if you like, than the leader is able to say that Sinn Féin would accept the outcome of a review into the Special Criminal Court. So it gets back to the heart of that issue, where we wonder, who pulls the strings on these sorts of issues, the whole, as Micheál Martin calls it, the old provos issue and why Mary Lou McDonald doesn’t appear to have the absolute autonomy as party leader on these issues.”

O’Rourke: “Let’s move to another…”

Sheahan: “The issue I suppose is that: do people care?

O’Rourke: “Well…”

Talk over each other

O’Connor: “Yeah, that’s an interesting…”

Sheahan: “The calculation Sinn Féin will make now is ‘well, you know, how many people are going to know who Paul Quinn was and how it was that he died and how many people, the man on the street, is going to know who Conor Murphy is? And that’s all stuff north of the border’…”

O’Rourke: “Yes, and there are atrocities on all sides…”

Sheahan: “Yeah.”

O’Rourke: “And if you go back long enough into the history of all the parties, very bad things happened. Now let’s move to another aspect of this debate…”

Listen back in full here

Earlier: How Was It For You?

From top: RTÉ Prime Time studio, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin, Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald, RTÉ’s Miriam O’Callaghan and David McCullough

Last night.

On RTÉ One’s Prime Time.

Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader Leo Varadkar, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald took part in the final TV leaders’ debate ahead of this Saturday’s general election.

Miriam O’Callaghan and David McCullough moderated the debate and there was no studio audience.

During a discussion about housing and homelessness, Mr Varadkar was asked about the homeless man who suffered life-changing injuries last month after he and his tent were scooped up while Dublin City Council and Waterways Ireland were clearing tents from along the Grand Canal near Leeson Street Bridge in Dublin.

Mr Varadkar claimed the man has asked for privacy and a housing plan is being put in place for him.

Ms McDonald raised Inner City Helping Homeless’ concerns about the latest official homeless figures, which showed a drop in the number of people living in emergency accommodation. However, at the moment she mentioned this, Ms O’Callaghan asked Ms McDonald to, instead, answer Mr Varadkar’s question about the number of people who are homeless in Northern Ireland.

The Fine Gael leader went on to claim there are 20,000 people homeless in Northern Ireland.

However, a fact check carried out by Caroline O’Doherty of the Irish Independent has proved his is false. She reports the “the actual homelessness figure in the North i.e. those in hostels or other emergency accommodation, is closer to 5,000 with the equivalent in the Republic being around 10,400”.

From the debate:

Leo Varadkar: “At the moment there are 6,000 social houses being built on 300 publicly owned sites at the moment across the country and we are starting to see results. According to Daft.ie today, rents have fallen for the first time in eight years, house prices are levelling off, homeless figures have, at long last, are starting to fall back to where they were in 2018…”

O’Callaghan: “Ok, let me come back in there, Leo Varadkar…”

Varadkar: “…according to charities like the Peter McVerry…”

O’Callaghan: “…let me come back there…”

Varadkar: “…Trust…”

O’Callaghan: “Because it’s an interview, just let me come back in there…”

Varadkar: “…that’s because of the increase in social housing being provided. We need to see this though.”

Later

Varadkar: “Among my best days as Taoiseach has been going into new housing estates, seeing people who’ve been on the housing list or young couples who have bought their first home, getting the keys for their house and going into that house.”

O’Callaghan: “There’s not enough of them..”

Varadkar: “You’re going to see more and more of them, as time goes on because of the changes we’ve made. It’s taken two years of investment but we now see rents falling.

“We now see people who are homeless falling and we now see house prices levelling off. But there are some people who think that the housing crisis can’t get worse. It can. The rent freeze idea, tried in Berlin, made things worse. Just froze people. [Legislation for the rent freeze in Berlin just passed on January 30th and will reportedly come into effect mid-February]

“Reduced supply and froze people out of renting altogether. And also we have Micheál Martin here who can’t be trusted on this, he signed off on a Fianna Fáil manifesto, full of typos about housing and he signed a manifesto calling for a rent freeze which he didn’t agree with and then blamed on officials in HQ. That is not the kind of person you want to be Taoiseach of this country.”

O’Callaghan: “Leo Varadkar you’ve all mentioned homelessness and I suppose we’ve been talking about people who can’t afford to buy their own home, people who can’t afford to rent.

“But, I mean, there are people out there who literally do not have a roof over their heads.

“At the beginning of this campaign, Leo Varadkar, a homeless man in his tent was lifted, as you know, like a piece of rubbish. He ended up with life-changing injuries. Most people in Ireland, they were really shocked by that and, for them, it almost symbolised how your Government, led by you, treated the homeless.

“And then, very shortly after that, maybe unintentionally, but you just tried to make a political point by pointing the finger at the Fianna Fáil Lord Mayor.”

Varadkar: “Well, first of all, my only regret is that that incident happened and that poor man got injured in the way that he did. And my only concern was to find out how it happened and why and to make sure it didn’t happen again.

“We’ve been in touch with that gentleman, a housing plan is being put in place for him. Thankfully his condition, he is stable and he has asked for privacy and I don’t want to make him an issue in this debate. 

“But when it comes to rough sleeping, when it comes to rough sleeping, working with the Peter McVerry Trust, we fund a programme called Housing First and what it does is it gives people a roof over their head and then gives them all the wraparound supports that they often need to deal with addiction, mental health issues, other issues, so that they could hold on to that new apartment, that new tenancy. That is working.

“Rough sleeping is actually, on the most recent count, down to it’s lowest level of four or five years. But I know it’s not enough, I know we need to do more on all these housing issues and I want to do so.”

Later

McDonald: “I have to say I’m struck listening to both the leader of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, that perhaps they’re not fully in touch with the reality out on the ground. I mean I hear you speak Leo about people getting house keys for their homes. It almost sounds patronising to people. I mean the reality is that people have a right to expect…”

O’Callaghan: “Staying on homelessness though, for the moment, the figures have dropped, as Leo Varadkar said earlier. The homelessness figures have dropped.”

Varadkar: “How many people are homeless in Northern Ireland, Deputy McDonald? How many people are homeless in Northern Ireland?”

McDonald: “The figures are nothing to crow about. And in fact I notice that Inner City Helping Homeless was scrutinising and questioning the figures…”

O’Callaghan: “Will you just answer the question Leo Varadkar put to you there.”

McDonald: “The reality is that the homeless figures have gone, skyrocketed in this jurisdiction, where this election is happening…”

Varadkar: “How many people are homeless in Northern Ireland?”

McDonald: “..you tell me how many people are?”

Varadkar: “Officially and these are the official stats from Northern Ireland, there are 20,000 people homeless in Northern Ireland, more than is the case here in this State. The waiting lists in Northern Ireland are the worst in the UK, they’re actually worse than they are here. Suicide rates are three times higher, the pension age is going up to 66 in Northern Ireland this year and the pension there is only £125 a week…”

Talk over each other

Varadkar: “And it would be lower if it wasn’t for all the money that was coming in from the Tories…Sinn Féin does not want to talk about their record in government…”

Talk over each other

McDonald: “So Miriam, I’m sure somebody will factcheck that figure and find that it’s wrong. Leo should be aware that the island is partitioned, the purse strings unfortunately, for the North of Ireland, are held in London. We’ve endured a decade of Tory austerity and that has brought great hardship.

“And do you know what you should do, Leo. Instead of trying to score a political point, the next time if you are Taoiseach or Micheál, or whoever is in office, challenge the British government on that point. Challenge them on funding. I don’t recall you ever doing that…”

EARLIER:

Towards the end of the debate, Ms O’Callaghan had the following exchange with Ms McDonald about comments made 13 years ago by the current Sinn Féin Minister for Finance in the North Conor Murphy to the BBC about 21-year-old Paul Quinn who was murdered in 2007.

Earlier, Ms McDonald was asked about her view of the Special Criminal Court (see below).

Miriam O’Callaghan: “Mary Lou McDonald you know, of course, about Breege Quinn, the mother of Paul Quinn, the 21-year-old who was so horrifically beaten to death in November 2007. Now she is asking for an apology, from your Minister for Finance in the North Conor Murphy because he aligned her son to criminality. You were due to speak to Minister Murphy today. Did you speak to him, to clarify?”

Mary Lou McDonald: “I did, Miriam and you’re right, Paul Quinn had a horrific death and the only criminals, to be clear, involved in this scenario are the people who so cruelly and viciously took his life so I have spoken to Conor. He is aware that the comments that he made after the murder of Paul Quinn have caused hurt and that that hurt has endured so he apologises for those remarks, he withdraws those remarks and he’ll speak to Breege Quinn and the family directly. I mean I’ve had the view that he needs to speak to the family directly.”

O’Callaghan: “OK, Mary Lou, I was watching you last night being interviewed by Bryan Dobson and you said then, and this is a quote from you last night, ‘I’ve spoken to Conor Murphy about this issue before, he is very clear that he never said that, that that is not his view’.”

McDonald: “Yes.”

O’Callaghan: “So you’ve changed your position?”

McDonald: “Well, in a way Miriam, what matters is what the family have heard and what matters is that the family…”

O’Callaghan: “What matters is what he said. Because actually, we found the quote today.”

McDonald: “Yeah.”

O’Callaghan: “It was on BBC in November 2007, a month after Paul was murdered and what Minister Murphy said was and I’ll quote him again verbatim on the BBC ‘Paul Quinn was involved in smuggling and criminality. I think everyone accepts that. As I say, this is a very difficult situation as there is a family grieving and I don’t want to add to their grief’.”

McDonald: “So let me just say, those things should not have been said. Those things should not have been said. Conor withdraws them and apologies.”

Talk over each other

O’Callaghan: “Last night you said they weren’t said.”

McDonald: “Pardon me?”

O’Callaghan: “Last night you said they weren’t said.”

McDonald: “My, my, to be honest with you, Miriam, my recollection was that he had not been as explicit as that. The remarks were wrong, they’re withdrawn correctly and will be apologised for, directly to Mrs Quinn and her family.”

O’Callaghan: “So your remarks, sorry, to Bryan last night were wrong too?”

McDonald: “Yes, well obviously, I was not, I, I, I remembered Conor being not quite as direct on this matter.”

O’Callaghan: “He had told you that he’s very clearly said he never said that and that is not his view. He told you he had never said that. Were you annoyed he’d said that?”

McDonald: “No, that’s not…my sole concern in this is that the family have been hurt and the remarks made need to be withdrawn and apologised for. That’s the correct thing to do.”

O’Callaghan: “So Conor Murphy is going to, Minister Murphy is going to apologise…”

McDonald: “Oh, absolutely that’s the correct and decent thing to do. A family that has lost their son in such brutal circumstances doesn’t need the additional hurt and grief.”

O’Callaghan: “And then, finally, Mary Lou, I heard Breege Quinn on Drivetime actually, talking to Mary Wilson and she also just said that she would like Minister Murphy to go to the PSNI, or the gardai, and just give the names of the men, the IRA men, in Cullyhanna, he spoke to. Would he do that now aswell do you think? Because Breege Quinn wants them to.”

McDonald: “What I am sure of and I’m sure of these facts, having spoken again to Conor is that he has in fact spoken to the PSNI and to the gardai. They have to investigate this matter. People with information need to bring it…”

Talk over each other

O’Callaghan: “And give them the names of the men he spoke to…”

McDonald: “…need to bring it, that information forward.”

Earlier in the debate, Ms McDonald was also asked about the Special Criminal Court.

David McCullough: “Could I please ask you to answer the question about the Special Criminal Court?”

McDonald: “Let me just say, I support the judicial system, the gardai and all of the apparatus of the State. Let me say this: our manifesto sets out very clearly that we want increased resources from An Garda Síochána…”

Miriam O’Callaghan: “Mary Lou McDonald, can I just say David asked you a very straight question because we do want to move on to the issue that matter to people, like housing.”

McDonald: “Yes.”

O’Callaghan: “Are you for or against the Special Criminal Court?”

McDonald: “I’m for the courts.”

Talk over each other

O’Callaghan: “That’s not the question.

Micheál Martin: “But you’re against the Special Criminal Court?”

O’Callaghan: “We’re asking the questions. Mary Lou?”

McDonald: “I am for the courts, the Special Criminal Court exists, I accept that we need mechanisms and special powers. What we have been calling for, for the last four years, is for a review, led by a High Court judge to ensure that the courts, the gardai, the DPP’s office have the full resources that they need to keep communities safe.”

Talk over each other

O’Callaghan: “Do you personally believe the Special Criminal Court should remain, Mary Lou McDonald? Do you personally believe the Special Criminal Court should remain, yes or no?”

McDonald: “I believe that we need special powers to do…we’ve 21st…”

Talk over each other

O’Callaghan: “That’s not what I asked you…”

McDonald: “We have 21st century criminals, we need 21st century processes to deal with them.”

O’Callaghan: “Ok, we didn’t get an answer, I’m actually moving on to housing.”

McDonald: “I think that’s a very fair, a very, very fair answer.”

Leo Varadkar: “The leader of Sinn Féin will not give you a straight answer to a straight question because she doesn’t want you to hear the answer and we’re going to hear a lot of this tonight.”

O’Callaghan: “People at home will have heard that, we don’t need to dwell on that.”

McDonald: “Can I help by clarifying, can I clarify it this way perhaps. The abolition of the court is not in our manifesto. We’re not arguing for that.”

Micheál Martin: “No, but Sinn Féin have voted against the Offences Against the State Act, Sinn Féin have voted against the Offences Against the State Act every year since they came into the Dáil.”

O’Callaghan: “Ok.”

Martin: “Simple reason why, the IRA old comrades decided they could never vote for the Special Criminal Court or support it, that’s the reality of what happened.”

O’Callaghan: “Ok. We’re moving on, Micheál Martin. We’re moving on to an issue that is of immense importance. Housing and homelessness…”

More to follow

Watch back in full here

Meanwhile…

EARLIER:

Stop that.