Tag Archives: Mick Wallace

‘The Planting Of Drugs By A Garda’

Admin at 3:47 pm January 24, 2017

This afternoon.

During Leaders’ Questions.

Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace raised the Garda whistleblower controversy again with Taoiseach Enda Kenny.

It follows a report in The Irish Times this morning which says the Government will launch a Commission of Investigation into claims made by former head of the Garda Press Office Supt Dave Taylor following a review of his claims by retired high court judge Iarlaith O’Neill.

Supt Taylor has claimed there was an alleged campaign within the gardai to ruin the reputation of Sgt Maurice McCabe.

Readers will recall how, last October, Trevor Collins, the solicitor of fellow Garda whistleblower Keith Harrison, raised concerns about Mr Justice O’Neill’s remit.

He said the exclusion of claims made by other Garda whistleblowers – including those of Garda Keith Harrison and Garda Nicky Keogh – from Mr O’Neill’s review made it a “flawed inquiry from the very outset”.

Further to this…

Mr Wallace raised the cases of Garda Harrison and Garda Keogh and the conflicts of interest that have emerged in relation to the investigations of their claims…

And he told how, just last week, the Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald received a letter from a whistleblower about a witness statement being doctored by gardai in an assault case. Mr Wallace said the background to the case involved the planting of drugs by a garda.

From Leaders’ Questions…

Mick Wallace: “We read today that you’re about to commence a Commission of Investigation into certain Garda matters, following the O’Neill report. Yesterday, the Garda Commissioner [Noirin O’Sullivan] was on the airways, telling us how wonderful everything is and how wonderful she is herself – bombing us with doublespeak.”

“Meanwhile, Taoiseach, the harassment of whistleblowers continues. The Tánaiste last December said to me, in reply to a question, the Garda Commissioner is entitled to her good name, as indeed are people making allegations entitled to theirs, unless facts properly established prove otherwise.”

“Well, Taoiseach, David Taylor, who was interviewed for 21 hours, a file sent to the DPP in September 2015, 2015 – and there’s no decision yet. Nothing has been proven against him. Is the Garda Commissioner allowed to ride rough shod over fair procedure in this area? The commissioner said yesterday: ‘I have absolutely no knowledge nor was I privy to any campaign to undermine any individual in An Garda Siochana’.”

“Taoiseach, 14 times, Keith Harrison wrote to her, detailing his harassment and bullying. He’s out sick since May 2010. He’s on €188 a week and there’s three kids at home. Nick Keogh has got nothing but grief since he reported malpractice.

“The commissioner yesterday was boasting yesterday about taking part in the fight against heroin. But she’s protecting the Chief Superintendent who’s been involved in the heroin case in Athlone. And last year, she placed a superintendent on the promotion list who has been accused on numerous occasions of harassing a whistleblower. ”

“In June 2015, the Garda Commissioner appointed an assistant commissioner to carry out an investigation into the allegation surrounding the chief superintendent and the garda for the drugs squad in Athlone. But it was the same assistant commissioner accused of earlier leaking information back to the super who was the subject of the complaint.

“In October 2015, the commissioner stated that she had commenced an investigation into this alleged conflict of interest. October 2015. Not a word of it since. I wonder where is it, Taoiseach?”

“Following the investigation into the matter, GSOC have asked for disciplinary procedures to be taken against them. Who does Noirin appoint to look after it? Yes, the very same assistant commissioner. Who also happens to be retiring in April so he probably won’t even get to the end of it and delay it all even further.”

“This month, GSOC asked to oversee the disciplinary procedure. GSOC’s request was refused. Taoiseach, when are you going to publish the report? Are you going to include the protective disclosures of all whistleblowers in the investigation, because if you don’t, it’s only a case of kicking the can down the road because we’ll eventually have to do it. And Taoiseach, do you intend to leave the commissioner in place while the investigation goes on because it will make a mockery of it if you do.”

Later

Enda Kenny: “Mr Justice O’Neill was asked to review the allegations of wrongdoing. He was also asked to include any recommendations which he considered appropriate. The report, I understand, sets out in detail the allegations contained in the protected disclosures. I’m sure that the House will appreciate that in the view of the nature of the allegations, and the fact that third parties are mentioned, the Tánaiste referred this to the Attorney General for advice on how to proceed, including the question of what material might properly be put into the public domain, having regard for the rights of all concerned.”

“I understand that the Attorney General has given some response to that but has some further matters to conclude on. And I also understand that the specific proposals will come to Government shortly, including putting the conclusions and recommendations of Mr Justice O’Neill to the public domain, Deputy Wallace.”

Later

Wallace: “Taoiseach, you haven’t answered any of my questions. Now while the Government sat on the O’Neill report, which you still haven’t told me when you’re going to publish, GSOC had to go to the High Court to force the Commissioner to hand over the transcripts of the O’Higgins Report – almost eight months since the Tánaiste requested GSOC to investigate the same.”

“Only last week Taoiseach, the minister got a letter from a whistleblower regarding a witness statement being doctored by garda, the gardaí, in an assault case. The background to the assault case related to the planting of drugs by a garda.”

“Taoiseach, I’ll ask you again: when are you going to publish the report? Do you intend to lead the commissioner in place? Because it will be laughable if you do. And, Taoiseach, if all is so well as the commissioner likes to tell us. Can you explain to me, or can the commissioner explain to me: why are so many whistleblowers out sick? Why aren’t they at work?”

“Why doesn’t Noirin O’Sullivan ring the whistleblowers? How come she’s never even rang… she’s rang none of them. Taoiseach, would you consider asking the commissioner to ring the whistleblowers that she says she cares so much about? Because, Taoiseach, it’s a bit scary. What she says in public is one thing. The reality, on the ground, couldn’t be much different.”

Kenny: “The [protected disclosures] act protects gardai, if they make a report – either to GSOC or the commissioner – for having their identity revealed, protection from dismissal and protection from being penalised in their employment as a result of having made a protected disclosure. That’s the law of the land. That’s what the act says protects whistleblowers for. You mentioned, of course, that the minister did receive the report from judge O’Neill. There are third parties mentioned in this report and it’s only right and proper that we return to the Attorney General for advice as to in what form and what element it should be published. And, in the ministers engaging with the Attorney General on that matter, my understanding Deputy Wallace is that this will come back to Government very shortly including proposals to implement the findings that Justice O’Neill has, has recommended, following his report being sent to the minister.”

Previously: The Wrong Side Of The Thin Blue Line

Getting Sorted

Admin at 1:31 pm December 19, 2016

Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace outside the High Court this morning

In November 2015, Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace made allegations in the Dáil about the sale of Nama’s northern loans, known as Project Eagle, to Cerberus.

Mr Wallace told the Dáil:

“…only recently, I was summoned to a meeting by a public figure and a message was passed on to me from a leading member of Cerberus Ireland that I was going to get sorted.”

Fast forward, if you will, to this morning.

At the High Court.

The Irish Times reports:

Ms Justice Caroline Costello today granted the bankruptcy petition by Promontoria (Aran) Ltd fund arising from a €2m judgment obtained after the fund took over the TD’s debt to Ulster Bank.

Promontoria is owned by US fund giant Cerberus, the fund at the centre of allegations made in the Dáil by Mr Wallace concerning the acquisition of Nama’s €5.7 billion Northern Ireland portfolio. The substance of those allegations is now subject to investigations in the UK and US.

TD Mick Wallace found bankrupt in the High Court (Irish Times)

Coincidence or bloody pink revenge?

Only YOU can decide.

Previously: ‘Cerberus Told Me I Was Going To Get Sorted’

Sam Boal/Rollingnews

You’ll Get Nothing From Me

Admin at 1:56 pm October 12, 2016

From top: Independents 4 Change TDs Mick Wallace and Clare Daly, and Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan at an Oireachtas committee meeting this morning

This morning.

Garda Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan and other senior gardaí appeared before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice and Equality this morning.

Their appearance followed reports of the two protected disclosures made by Sgt Maurice McCabe and former head of the Garda Press Office Supt Dave Taylor.

It’s been reported that Supt Taylor has admitted he was central to a smear campaign orchestrated by Garda management to destroy Sgt McCabe’s name and character, and that former garda commissioner Martin Callinan knew what was happening, as did his successor Noirin O’Sullivan, who was then a deputy commissioner.

Supt Taylor has alleged the campaign included text messages; the creation of an intelligence file on Sgt McCabe; the monitoring of his activities on Pulse, and making false allegations about him to both members of the media and politicians.

It’s also been repaired that Supt Taylor has claimed there is evidence of the campaign on his phone, or phones, that were subsequently seized as part of a separate investigation.

Readers will also recall that on January 24, 2014 – six days before Sgt McCabe gave testimony in private to the Public Accounts Committee – Fianna Fail TD John McGuinness met then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan in the car park of Bewley’s Hotel on the Naas Road for a secret meeting, at which Mr Callinan told Mr McGuinness that Sgt McCabe could not be trusted.

It’s been reported that it was Mr Callinan who sought the meeting with Mr McGuinness.

Speaking of the meeting, Mr McGuinness told the Dail:

The Garda Commissioner confided in me in a car park on the Naas Road that Garda McCabe was not to be trusted and there were serious issues about him.

The vile stories that circulated about Garda McCabe, which were promoted by senior officers in the Garda, were absolutely appalling.

In addition, on RTE’s Morning Ireland on Monday, the solicitor of another Garda whistleblower Keith Harrison, Trevor Collins spoke to Cathal MacCoille, saying:

“[Harrison] has suffered and the victimisation, the intimidation, the ostracization that is ongoing… what I can say, without going into detail, is he has been the subject of surveillance, he has suffered victimisation, bullying harassment, as has his family. There has been a dissemination of rumour and innuendo which has been solely designed to undermine his credibility and that has been circulated within certain members of the media, certain politicians and his Garda colleagues.”

Mr Collins also highlighted how different Garda whistleblowers have suffered similar mistreatment and that Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald’s appointment of former High Court judge Justice Iarlaith O’Neill – to review Sgt McCabe and Supt Taylor’s claims – is a flawed inquiry if it doesn’t include the allegations of other whistleblowers.

Further to this… from this morning’s Oireachtas committee meeting:

Clare Daly: “Commissioner, you said you weren’t privy to any information about allegations of mistreatment of whistleblowers, that your knowledge was very much based on what was in the public commentary and, from what you’ve heard, but is that statement not contradicted by the fact that legal counsel for one of the whistleblowers wrote directly to you 14 times over a two-year period, outlining a litany of direct experiences that he had had in terms of surveillance, intimidation, and all the rest of it?”

Noirin O’Sullivan: ” Deputy, as you will be aware, I’m precluded from talking about individual cases but what I can say, in general cases, as I have said earlier, each individual’s experience is different, we are dealing with each individual separately and as an individual and, indeed with their representatives or their legal teams who raise issues with us and all of those are being addressed. We are in the process of retaining a professional expert to review all of these and indeed our experience to date is, because of the, as I say, these are single figure numbers, but nevertheless, each individual’s experience is so different, that actually what we believe is, the professional expert can help us to review our internal structures, our internal process and our approach to things. If there’s areas that we can strengthen, we’re very open to strengthening those but perhaps it is time for a consideration to be given to some kind of an independent entity where all of these issues go to and that people can have some reassurance that there is somebody independently looking at all of these matters and then that we ensure that the internal structures are there to strengthen and support individual needs.”

Daly: “I’ve no intention of going into details on any individual cases but my question was is it the case, that you received direct contact on 14 occasions from a legal counsel, of one of the whistleblowers stating, and giving very specific information which I won’t give here, outlining his negative experiences as a whistleblower?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, again, I’m not able in this forum, in a public forum, to go into individual cases. I think it would be grossly unfair to individuals.”

Daly: “And I’m not asking you to do that, Commissioner. I’m just asking you could you confirm that you received 14 direct communications from legal counsel in relation to these matters. I think it’s a valid question, chair?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy I have specific obligations under the Protected Disclosures Act, as the employer, to protect the individuals and to protect the identity of individuals and I am not in a position to answer any specific questions in relation to any specific individual or any specific correspondence received in relation to an individual, other than to say that every individual’s case is being treated individually and that we have structures in place to deal with that.”

Daly: “I’m not asking you, Commissioner, to detail any details about an individual case, but I am perfectly entitled to put a question, in terms of, particularly in the context of O’Higgins [inquiry], of the public assurances that we’ve got from your offices that the Garda Siochana are a safe place for people to come forward with information when that public, I suppose, statement is contradicted by other issues – we’ve a right to tease that out and I’d just like to ask you again – …are you perfectly happy to reiterate your statement that you are not privy to any specific allegations involving mistreatment of people who’ve come forward as whistleblowers?”

O’Sullivan: “I don’t think my answer to Deputy [Jim] O’Callaghan was in respect of allegations because I obviously have heard the public commentary in respect of allegations that have been made but I don’t think it is fair or even just to say that all that one has to do is look at what we have put into place, in an effort to support and to support our determination to ensure that people can bring forward facts. And I think the evidence speaks for itself in terms of the structures that have been put in place, in terms of the systems that have been put in place and in terms of the efforts that have been put in place. But without going into individual cases, I cannot go into individual cases and I’m sure …”

Daly: “Nobody has asked you, nobody has asked you to go into individual cases but there has been a huge amount of public statements, and you’ve done it again today to say that you are not privy to any of these complaints, if you like, or more specific examples that are in the public domain, I’m just asking you to either: it’s kind of a yes or no – can you confirm that you are aware or you’re not. Because you’ve said you’re not privy to it. My evidence is that you are but I mean, if you’re telling us you’re not, I’ll move on but could you just tell us whether you are or you’re not.”

O’Sullivan: “Well deputy what I did say was I’m not privy to, nor did I approve, nor would I condone any campaign of harassment or any campaign to malign any individual employee.”

Daly: “So you’re not aware of any circumstances where such claims would have been made, that hasn’t been brought to your attention?”

O’Sullivan: “That isn’t what I’m saying, deputy, what I’m saying is that I, personally, was not privy to, nor would I approve, nor would I condone any campaign against any individual.”

Daly: “So if you had been made aware, of any such allegations, what action would you have taken to deal with that situation?”

O’Sullivan: “Any issues that are brought to our attention by any individual are fully addressed and that is the case in terms of all of the individuals, have brought matters to our attention, or indeed any member of any representative of any individual, those issues are being addressed in the structures and the processes that we have there. As I say we are in the process of retaining an independent, professional expert to review those processes and it may indeed need to go beyond that but we can only do what we can do internally and what we have control of and that is why we have somebody independently being retained review either areas that can be strengthened, recognising that individual needs are different.”

Daly: “If everything is improving, you’ve said that the numbers of whistleblowers are single figures, could you explain maybe why all of those single figures, five at least, if not more, are presently out sick and have been on protracted sick leave for a period of time because of work-related stress.”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, again, and I’m very conscience that we are speaking about single figure numbers and, even by extension, that could serve to identify individuals and I’m precluded from speaking about individual cases and, as the employer, I have a duty of care to all of the individuals and their circumstances but there are systems in place to support and to help the individuals concerned.”

Daly: “It’s very difficult to get an answer, chair.”

Later

Daly: “I mean, obviously, some incredibly serious issues were raised here this morning and I do think that clarity is actually critical and I note Commissioner that, on a number of occasions, that you said that you weren’t privy to, nor aware of, nor approved any campaign to target whistleblowers and I’d just really like you to be concise around some of these issues, yes or no preferably. Like, is it your assertion that you were never directly made aware of any such allegations in relation to the targeting of whistleblowers?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, I can only repeat what I said. I am not privy to, nor would I approve, nor did I approve, nor would I condone, any actions such as targeting any individuals other than individuals engaged in criminal activity in the sense of targeting that we spoke about earlier.”

Daly: “Okay. I note you’re reluctance to answer again so maybe I’ll help by partly answering for you. I’m aware that you were directly made aware – I have the correspondence and your replies in my folder here – in relation to allegations of precisely such, a campaign of targeting in relation to whistleblowers. So what I’d like to know is what actions did you take on foot of hearing about those allegations?”

O’Sullivan: “Well deputy I’m sure you will appreciate that I’m not aware of neither who the disclosures are, the content of the disclosures, or the allegations that you are suggesting and in such circumstances it would not only be inappropriate but it would be impossible to comment.”

Daly: “I’m sorry, Commissioner, but I didn’t actually ask you to comment on any individual cases at all. I think that would be inappropriate, I was talking about the general processes which I think are incredibly fair questions, in the context of the seriousness of what is the case. And particularly, in light of your comments, that the system is changing, when really, on a fairly regular basis, evidence is being produced to say that things aren’t changing. And I’m wondering how you can, if you like, square that circle?”

O’Sullivan: “Well I cannot comment on something which I have not seen, I am not aware of and I think that there is a process that is being set up where there will be fair procedure and due process provided and Mr Justice O’Neill can address any issues arising from that.”

Daly: “I would just like to put on the record, chair, that I have seen that you have seen these allegations and, in that sense, I find your response quite upsetting actually in many ways. But I wonder maybe the last question that you could answer: how do you explain, if you’re not aware of any of these allegations, and yet these allegations are there and they exist both in terms of documented proof going back over years and, as you said yourself, huge conversation in the public domain, if you’re not aware of that and yet they still continue, is that not a huge problem? Particularly as they’re continuing in different parts of the country, in different regions. Supposedly, without any of your knowledge, is the issue really then that you have no authority amongst your members? That they’re flagrantly doing the opposite of what you’re telling them to do? And does that not put your position in jeopardy?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, I’m not in a position to comment, or indeed should I comment, or it’s impossible to comment on unsubstantiated allegations which are put into the public domain by elected representatives and others. And I’m very much aware of the unsubstantiated allegations which are in the public domain, I’m also aware that a process has been established where all of these matters can be afforded due process and fair procedure, to allow for proper examination of all these matters and I will fully cooperate, as will An Garda Siochana with that process.”

Later

Mick Wallace: “Commissioner, did you admit that you gave instructions to challenge the credibility and motivation of Sgt McCabe, in relation to the O’Higgins report and my second questions, and I may have missed it, I don’t know, over the last couple of years, but you were sitting beside the former Commissioner Callinan when he described the whistleblowers [Sgt Maurice McCabe and Garda John Wilson] as disgusting. And I’m just wondering minister, Commissioner did you ever disassociate yourself from those remarks?”

O’Sullivan: “Well, firstly, deputy, the O’Higgins Commission which was your first question: At all times, my interactions with my legal advisors were based on legal advice and, as you know, there is lawyer-client privilege pertains to every citizen of this State, and including the Garda Commissioner and, as such, I cannot comment on any interactions between me and my legal advice and that is what my advice is. Secondly, in relation to my sitting alongside my predecessor, former commissioner Martin Callinan, a lot of play has been made of that issue and, you know again that was an interaction at a Dail committee, I am record as saying that the choice of words was unfortunate and what I actually wrote to the Commissioner Callinan was to withdraw those remarks because I do not believe they were said in the way that they came across.”

Meanwhile…

Separately but also during Ms O’Sullivan’s appearance, Cork Sinn Fein TD Jonathan O’Brien asked Ms O’Sullivan some very direct questions…

Mr O’Brien (above right) started by asking Ms O’Sullivan if she knew of any whistleblowers being put under surveillance.

From their exchange…

O’Sullivan: “Am I aware of any…”

Jonathan O’Brien: “Whistleblowers being put under surveillance?”

O’Sullivan: “Absolutely not, deputy.”

O’Brien: “Ok, are you aware of any intelligence files being opened in relation to whistleblowers?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, I’m aware of suggestions in the media, and in public commentary, but I am personally not aware.”

O’Brien: “You spoke, in relation to electronic materials which will be handed over if Justice O’Neill requires it. Can I ask is it one, two or three phones which were confiscated from the whistleblower [Supt Dave Taylor]?”

O’Sullivan: “I don’t think it’s appropriate, we have a number of ongoing live investigations and I don’t think it’s appropriate deputy to speak about individual investigations.”

O’Brien: “But will they be handed over?”

O’Sullivan: “Absolutely, every assistance and any requirement of Justice O’Neill will be fully met by An Garda Siochana.”

O’Brien: “And if there are intelligence files in relation to whistleblowers, will they also be handed over?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, I believe there are no intelligence files but if Mr Justice O’Neill requires any access to any area of An Garda Siochana, he will be made fully aware, given full access.”

O’Brien: “Will you undertake to find out if there are any intelligence files in relation to whistleblowers?”

O’Sullivan: “I am not aware of any intelligence files, deputy.”

O’Brien: “Will you ask if there are any intelligence files?”

O’Sullivan: “I can certainly ask but we do not, and I must state this categorically, protected disclosures are relatively a new phenomenon, we do not keep intelligence files. I hope you’ve heard form my colleagues here today, we have enough activities to keep us very busy and creating intelligence files on people who are causing harm to communities.”

O’Brien: “Are you aware of the content of the meeting between the Commissioner Callinan and Deputy John McGuinness?”

O’Sullivan: “Deputy, the first I became aware of that meeting, of the fact that even a meeting took place, was in the media. I am not aware and I have not been aware up to reading it in the media of any interaction between Deputy Commissioner, or sorry, former Commissioner Callinan and Deputy McGuinness in a car park.”

O’Brien: “So you’re not aware of any content which was discussed at that meeting?”

O’Sullivan: “Absolutely not.”

O’Brien: “Have you considered temporarily stepping aside as Commissioner while Justice O’Neill carries out his review? Given that there are a number of allegations that you had knowledge of a campaign to discredit a whistleblower?”

O’Sullivan: “Well, firstly, deputy, what I will do is reiterate my statement, I was not privy to, nor did I approve, nor would I condone any campaign against any individual….”

Previously: ‘A Flawed Inquiry From The Very Outset’

‘Was The O’Higgins Report Not Enough For You?’

Admin at 1:36 pm October 6, 2016

Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald and Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace in the Dáil

This afternoon.

During Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil.

The Garda whistleblower controversy was discussed again with Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace – addressing Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald – recalling the O’Higgins report.

Readers may recall how, during the O’Higgins’ Commission of Investigation into Sgt Maurice McCabe’s allegations, Colm Smyth, SC, initially told Judge Kevin O’Higgins that, on behalf of Ms O’Sullivan, his instructions were to “challenge the integrity of Sgt McCabe and his motivation”.

This was based on a meeting in Mullingar between Sgt McCabe and two gardaí.

Several months later, on the day Commissioner O’Sullivan was due to give evidence – by which time Sgt McCabe had produced a transcript of his meeting in Mullingar with two gardaí – Mr Smyth told Judge O’Higgins: “The position now is that his motive is under attack, credibility is under attack from the Commissioner. But not his integrity.”

Mr Wallace’s raising of the O’Higgins Report followed reports this morning that Garda whistleblowers have said they will not co-operate with a State inquiry until Commission O’Sullivan temporarily steps aside.

From Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil…

Mick Wallace: “Minister, yes Nicky Keogh did write to you four times. You replied once when he told you about the harassment that he couldn’t have been suffering without the commissioner’s knowledge. And you wrote back to him to say they were looking for an urgent report from the Garda Commissioner – that was May of this year, right? May. You say you follow up things quickly. May is a long time. It’s over years Minister that myself and Deputy Daly had been telling you about the huge problems that are not being addressed – over two years.

“How in God’s name can you say that you’re dealing with these matters. You’re talking about a rush to judgement, two years? You’re saying that claims not properly tested. Minister you have the transcript from the O’Higgins’ report hearings, in your office. Is there not enough information in that, was that not properly tested? The role that she played in trying to undermine the credibility of Maurice McCabe, is there not enough in that for you? You talk about people disposing the laws of the land? God bless us, Minister. What arrived on your desk last Monday, oh god, look it, if half of it, if any of it is true, how bad is it? I’m not easily shocked. I’ve spent my life living in the real world. And I know how bad things can be out there. I haven’t seen the like of it. It’s horrific. It’s mind numbing.

“Myself and Clare Daly have met the two senior gardaí who have made the protected disclosures and we haven’t briefed the protected disclosures but Minister sitting down listening to it, face to face, oh my God. I’m not…I don’t want to talk about it anymore, right? Listen, Minister, you’re talking about another inquiry, another judge. You talk about the new broom you brought in. Nothing has changed, Minister. Nothing. And we marked our cards for you on your legislation on GSOC and on the Policing Authority. We’ve have [Judge] Mary Ellen Ring and Jospehine Feehily stressing the lack of authority that they have through legislation to do their jobs properly.

“The gardai, minister, are in turmoil. There’s a split in it. There’s two camps. She has promoted a ring around her. It’s corrosive. She is doing so much damage to An Garda Siochana, there are so many good gardai, minister, that are shocked at how she is operating. You cannot leave her in position and Minister, the idea that there will be an investigation while she was in place, is nuts.”

Frances Fitzgerald: “Well, deputy, you’ve made a number of comments there, I will repeat what I said, that I believe, you may not, but I believe that due process is important. I believe that the law, should be used carefully in these circumstances. I don’t believe in making a decision before the evidence has been heard. What we have is a body of allegations that we brought forward and I have said to the House, that I believe that they are serious and that they ought to be investigated. And I will ensure that that happens. And I will ensure that there is follow-up, depending on the outcome and the output from that investigation. Of course, I will. That would be my job and that’s what I would do.

“Quite a number of things have changed. For the first time, we have independent oversight. We have the Police Authority where the public with the public meetings can see An Garda Siochana be accountable to a new policing authority, being chaired by Jospehine Feehily and a very, very competent and serious board who are totally committed to their task. That’s different, that’s changed.

“GSOC have been given new powers and I’m perfectly prepared to meet both chairs to discuss further changes that are necessary to the legislation. You’ve made a number of points about investigations going on over a period of time. And yes, investigations do take time. There are procedures to be followed. And let me make the point, in relation to the disclosures that were made some time ago. And what’s been happening. And without commentating in any way on the disclosures, who has made disclosures, or the disclosures themselves, I can tell the House that I am extremely concerned about matters which have been raised in relation to policing in Athlone. And by the way, deputy, I wrote to you and I haven’t received a reply.”

“I have sought and received a number of requests form the Garda authorities about this matter. These indicate that a series of investigations have been taking place into the complex issues involved, including criminal investigations, disciplinary investigations and investigations by the Garda Siochana Ombudsman (GSOC). Not all of these are yet completed, I am monitoring the situation closely and I expect further reports from An Garda Siochana about these matters and I do want to make it very clear, as I’ve already said, that should the present investigations not succeed in fully addressing matters of public concerns which have arisen, and I’m talking about the investigations that are being under way, I’m not talking about the more recent protected disclosures which only arrived on Monday, which I am currently considering.

“I will have no hesitation, in establishing some other form of inquiry, but I will wait for due process to take its place and to continue. And I won’t act precipitously either in relation to that investigation, or indeed the recent protected disclosures, but I will follow the letter of the law and I will follow the legislation that was passed in this house where people have a right to confidentiality and people have a right to due process. And I wouldn’t be doing my job, as Minister for Justice, if I didn’t follow due process and the law which has been laid down which we have all agreed to be following in relation to protected disclosures. And we are the first Government, as has been said already and has been spoken about for many years, we’re the first Government to actually bring in law to deal with the issue of protected disclosures.”

Wallace: “Well it doesn’t seem to be working then. Minister, you’re talking about returning letters. I wrote to you a year ago and I gave you evidence of the massaging of crime figures in the same place, I asked you about the report yesterday. A year ago? My god, and why is the fella on the promotion list? Number 14? Why? You tell me. And there’s another guy that was reported by the whistleblower down there and he got promotion, but you know what? The people that stood by that man in that station, they didn’t get promotion.

“The commissioner said in a statement yesterday that she wishes to reiterate that any employees in An Garda Siochana will forward any concerns or issues they might have, will be taken seriously ad the matters examined. Well, my god. People can’t believe what this woman is saying. Minister, what she says in public and what she does privately is 100% different. You can say that you don’t have enough evidence, Minister, and you want due process, right?

“Was the O’Higgins report not enough for you in the first place? So let’s forget about what you got on your desk last week, was that not enough for you? The dogs on the street can see that there was a deliberate effort on her part to undermine the credibility of Maurice McCabe. How in god’s name can you leave her in position after that? I tell you what minister, as long as you leave her in position, there will be allegations coming in against that commissioner and, you know what, it’s only going to get worse, Ministier.”

Fitzgerald: “Yes, I did receive a letter from you. To which I replied. I have the letter here. And I went back to and I asked you to give me some detail that was important in relation to protected disclosures, if I was to follow up the points that you made. You didn’t respond to me.”

Wallace: [barely audible as microphone was off] “I didn’t get it.”

Fitzgerald: “Well, it was sent to you here, in Dail Eireann. Ok…I didn’t get a reply from you for the information that I asked from you. I’ll send it to you again….”

Meanwhile…

In The Irish Times, Fiach Kelly, a journalist, writes :

Knee-jerk calls for resignations and blanket condemnations lead to a demeaning of the political system and erode trust in politics.

…Dáil privilege is nowadays often used to air serious allegations that have been investigated thoroughly elsewhere.

…The latest claims are contained in protected disclosures currently in Ms Fitzgerald’s possession, and have led to calls for the immediate resignation of Ms O’Sullivan.

It is undoubtedly the case that some whistleblowers, such as Sgt McCabe, were poorly treated but it is equally unacceptable for people to call for resignations, on foot of serious allegations that have not yet been tested.

...there have been substantial efforts to reform the justice system in order to increase public confidence in it and to help improve the culture of An Garda Síochána to make it a more open place for those with dissenting views and concerns about how the force is being run.

These reforms have yet to be completed and are still being bedded in.

Uncanny.

Knee-jerk calls for O’Sullivan to resign erode trust in politics (Fiach Kelly, Irish Times)

Breaking The Fortress Line

Admin at 12:18 pm September 30, 2016

Nama’s chief executive Brendan McDonagh and a letter from Michael George, managing director of Fortress Capital, to Andrew McDowell, Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s former economic adviser, at 3.04pm on February 13, 2014

Further to the appearance of Nama officials – including chairman Frank Daly, chief executive Brendan McDonagh and audit committee chair and member of Nama’s Northern Ireland Advisory Committee Brian McInery – before the Public Accounts Committee yesterday…

US investment fund Fortress was the only underbidder in Nama’s eventual sale of Northern Ireland loan portfolio, otherwise known as Project Eagle, to Cerberus.

You mayrecall the following sequence of events, as outlined in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report on the sale:

Nama approved a proposal to sell Project Eagle at a minimum price of £1.3bn over two meetings on December 12, 2013 and January 8, 2014.

On January 8, 2014, Lazard and Company Ltd were appointed as the loan sale advisor for Project Eagle.

On February 13, 2014, it was reported in the press that Pimco had approached Nama, back in 2013, to buy the whole Northern Ireland portfolio and, a day later, selected bidders were allowed to access information on the loans in a data room.

On March 12, 2014, Pimco withdrew from the loan sale process – after informing Nama of a £15million success fee arrangement involving a member of Nama’s Northern Ireland Advisory Committee, Frank Cushnahan, London law firm Brown Rudnick and Belfast-based Tughans solicitors.

On April 3, 2014, Nama approved the sale of Project Eagle to Cerberus who also used the services of Brown Rudnick and Tughans solicitors.

You may also recall reports that Fortresss had to make a representation to the Department of the Taoiseach on February 13, 2014, before it was invited into the bidding process some five weeks after it had begun and Nama’s denial of the same.

During yesterday’s PAC meeting, Fine Gael TD Noel Rock had the following exchange with Brendan McDonagh.

Noel Rock: “When were Pimco initially informed there was going to be a sales competition?”

Brendan McDonagh: “Pimco were told, I think, post the board meeting in January 2014. We’ve always maintained to Pimco, that there was never going to be an exclusive off-market sale directly to them.”

Rock: “Okay. All right. Do we have the minutes for that board meeting?”

McDonagh: “Yes.”

Rock: “And it says that in it? Okay. Fortress, it was said earlier on, I don’t know if it was yourself of Frank said it, that there was no email to Enda Kenny from Fortress seeking…”

McDonagh: “None. No. There was reporting effectively that Fortress had, it was reported in the media that Fortress had to email the Department of the Taoiseach, the official Department of the Taoiseach to get access to the thing. That’s actually completely untrue. I know the managing director, senior managing director of Fortress. I met him a number of times I think in 2009 and we stayed in touch over various things. He emailed me on the 13th of February 2014. My email is available to the, there’s nothing in it. Basically saying, ‘Brendan, how’s it going?’ Talked about the rugby match at the weekend and said, ‘I just heard through one of my colleagues that the Northern Ireland portfolio may be on the market, it’s something I’d be interested in’. I forwarded the email to my colleague and said, ‘please let this guy, get Lazards to contact him because, you know, I met this guy, and I had no issue with him. I would know Fortress in my previous life. And it was, Fortress were brought, they were contacted by Lazards, I think that evening on the 13th of February. They were sent an NDA, an non-disclosure agreement and they were sent the NDA on the 14th of February and then they didn’t return their signed NDA, because you can’t get access to the data room until you supply the NDA, they didn’t return their signed NDA until the 26th of February, I don’t know why it took them 12 days to sign it. Maybe they had to go through their own internal compliance or whatever it was but they were invited into the process, on the evening of the 13th of February, but certainly on the 14th of February when they were sent the NDA.”

Rock: “I’m familiar with your emails. I’ve seen a copy of those. On the same day though, they did email the Department of the Taoiseach. Why do you think they would have done?”

McDonagh: “There was no, I don’t know what email the Department of the Taoiseach, I haven’t actually personally seen that email…”

Rock: “I’ll forward it to the secretary so you can be provided with a copy.”

McDonagh: “But I saw the media report but I was a bit surprised by that because I had got an email from the senior managing director of Fortress on the 13th of February myself and I arranged for Lazards to get in contact.”

Rock: “Okay, all right. Thank you. In, I think it was yourself Brendan, in a previous appearance before the PAC, I’m just going to quote this here if you don’t mind: ‘We appointed Lazard, then Lazard approached the nine biggest funds in the world, the guys who would have fire power and capital to be able to buy a portfolio like this. Then you listed the nine firms, including Fortress that you said had been approached. But it obviously seems, based on the discussion of the email with the Department of Taoiseach and indeed to yourself, that it wasn’t the case that they were approached; they, in fact, had to approach you. Do you accept this quote is now inaccurate, in effect?”

McDonagh: “No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s inaccurate, deputy, because Fortress were one of the people which were considered to be approached by Lazard anyway so, as I said, there’s a league table in terms of, you know, people, division one, division two, division three, so as people drop out, we were pushing Lazard to get more people into the process.”

Rock: “Right. So. So, like, I’m finding this hard to understand. Did Lazard approach Fortress? Or not? If so, why did they [Fortress] need to approach you?”

McDonagh: “Well, all I can say to you, deputy, is as follows: On the 13th of February, I got an email from the senior managing director of Fortress, I got one of my colleagues to contact Lazard to say, ‘contact these guys in Fortress, find out if they’re interested or interested or not’. I don’t know personally when Lazard were going to contact Fortress or not, but I do know what happened on the 13th and 14th of February.”

Rock: “Okay.”

Letter via Mick Wallace

‘Active Consideration’

Admin at 9:59 am July 20, 2016

Taoiseach Enda Kenny in the Dáil last month when he was questioned about Nama

The Irish Times reports:

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has asked to meet Independent TD Mick Wallace over his call for a commission of inquiry into Project Eagle, the sale of Nama’s Northern Ireland property portfolio.

Yesterday, Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams met Mr Wallace separately to discuss his call.

The Wexford TD was accompanied at the meetings by solicitor Aidan Eames.
Mr Wallace declined to comment last night.

However, Leinster House sources confirmed that active consideration was being given to setting up some form of inquiry into aspects of the running of the National Asset Management Agency.

Nama inquiry likely as Kenny seeks to meet Wallace over claims (Fiach Kelly, Irish Times)

Previously: Nama and Project Eagle on Broadsheet

‘This Is How We Do Business In Ireland’

Admin at 4:09 pm July 13, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUERYtZAAM0

Harcourt Street Garda HQ in Dublin and Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace speaking in the Dáil this afternoon

This afternoon.

During Leaders’ Questions, Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace raised questions about Nama selling the Harcourt Street Garda Station, Dublin 2.

Mick Wallace: “What does the Taoiseach think of the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, complaining to the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, in March 2016 about Frank Cushnahan, given that it knew in March 2014 that this gentleman was in line for a backhander of £5 million?”

Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaíl: “Deputy, please, do not make allegations against somebody outside the House. It is not in order.”

Wallace: “Given that Ronnie Hanna was arrested in May 2016, can we expect NAMA to complain about him in May 2018? Aside from Frank Cushnahan, the arrest of Ronnie Hanna has brought Project Eagle back home to Dublin, yet the Government wants to bury its head in the sand.”

“It is more than a year since I first gave the Garda the name of an individual who paid €15,000 in a bag in order to get favourable treatment from NAMA as well as the name of the NAMA employee who was taking the money. There was denial all around as usual. However, the man receiving the money has since been arrested on a different charge. Meanwhile, the guy who paid the bribe is doing well for himself; there is not a bother on him. Such is business in Ireland.”

“The investment fund, Hibernia REIT, is taking a court action to have An Garda Síochána removed from Harcourt Street station. These buildings were in NAMA and they are probably the most important buildings in the country for the Garda. The command and control centre for the whole of Ireland is based there. Moving and scattering this technical centre to the four winds will undermine the workings of the Garda.”

“Will the Taoiseach explain why NAMA was allowed to sell this site to a vulture fund rather than keep it in State ownership? Hibernia REIT, which now owns the site, was set up by a guy who was a big player in NAMA where he was a portfolio manager for three years.”

“When he joined the agency, he moved his 30% shareholding in his father’s company to an offshore trust. Did he declare that to NAMA? The same company then benefitted from some lucrative work from the agency. He left NAMA in December 2012 and used his insider knowledge regarding the agency’s assets to line up investment funds that would provide the finance for the new company, Hibernia REIT, which he manages.”

“It would not require forensic examination to discover that Hibernia REIT did remarkably well in purchasing former NAMA assets, many of which this gentleman was involved with, but then that is how we do business in Ireland.”

“Does the Taoiseach not think that the public interest would be best served if we examined the complete workings of NAMA? At this stage the majority of people in Ireland believe NAMA is rotten to the core.”

Enda Kenny: “It is not the first time Deputy Wallace has raised a matter in respect of NAMA, which is a matter of public interest. As I said before on quite a number of occasions, the advice given to me by the authorities is that this loan portfolio was sold following an open process to the highest bidder.”

“On the questions of allegations against certain individuals in Northern Ireland, NAMA paid no moneys to any party on this loan sale against whom allegations of wrongdoing are now being made and, as I said before, if somebody has evidence, they should bring that to the authorities.”

“I am also aware that two individuals that the Deputy mentioned were held for questioning in respect of the UK National Crime Agency, NCA, investigation into the Northern Ireland assets owned by NAMA and I am advised that the NCA has confirmed to NAMA that no aspect of the agency’s activities are under investigation.”

“I welcomed this previously, as did the Minister for Finance. These allegations are serious and, clearly, they have to be, and are being, investigated in that jurisdiction. Taking into account the investigations that are under way, the Minister for Finance has a view that no specific line of inquiry here can stand up and be usefully pursued by a commission of investigation. Many allegations have been made.”

“The appropriate investigations are already taking place in the appropriate jurisdictions and it would be unwise to launch a very costly commission of investigation on claims that are currently under investigation by the authorities.”

“The Deputy mentioned before the issue that he raised. These are specific allegations of wrongdoing. If there are ones that are not being investigated, obviously they should be brought to the attention of the Garda and the authorities. If this is an issue that is appropriate to a commission of investigation, we need more details on what the Deputy has there and in the absence of such specific allegations, it is right and proper that the appropriate authorities should have the time and space required to compete their investigations.”

“The Deputy has raised the issue of the Garda station in Harcourt Street. I am aware of the situation there in so far as their being asked to move out is concerned. I think there is an objection lodged to that. Obviously, investigations, as I said, are going on in the Northern Ireland jurisdiction as well.”

“The Comptroller and Auditor General is required, under section 226 of the NAMA Act, to produce a report every three years – that office is a completely independent body – assessing the extent to which NAMA has made progress towards achieving its overall objective.”

“NAMA and the Comptroller and Auditor General appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts on 9 July last year. At that appearance the Comptroller and Auditor General indicated that his next section 226 report would look in detail at a sample of NAMA disposals and a sample of properties held by it for investment and, furthermore, that a specific review of Project Eagle, under section 9 of the Comptroller and Auditor General Act, would be undertaken. That is under way. I do not know when it will be published but I understand quite a good deal of work has been done on it.”

Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaíl : “Thank you, Taoiseach.”

Kenny: “The Comptroller and Auditor General has indicated that he intends to issue a report, under section 11 of the Comptroller and Auditor General Act, following this review of Project Eagle, and that is consistent with his powers to investigate, scrutinise and report independently on any aspect of NAMA’s work which may arise through its annual audits or special reports about any aspect of NAMA’s work.”

“I assume if Deputy Wallace is raising a new issue on the basis of a new allegation, I am sure he will transmit that to the Garda or the authorities as well.”

Ó Fearghaíl: “Before I bring in Deputy Wallace, I wish to say that he has raised, as the Taoiseach acknowledged, a matter of major public importance, but having regard to the Standing Orders of the House, I ask him please, notwithstanding the fact he has named individuals today and in the past, not to name individuals so as to be in compliance with Standing Orders, and not to refer to an individual in such a way as to make him or her identifiable“.

Wallace: “That is probably the worst answer the Taoiseach has ever given me in the House in relation to NAMA. He did not answer any of the questions I asked him. I never mentioned the words “Project Eagle”. I am tired talking about that in here. ”

“On that, the Taoiseach has made the point that there is no investigation into the workings of NAMA, even around that or anything else. It is blatantly obvious that the one jurisdiction where some investigation of a serious nature should be going on is the one that does not have one, and that is us. We do not want to know, or the Taoiseach does not want to know. I can understand why he does not want to know. As a matter of interest, how come no one can ever answer the question as to why NAMA never reported the fact this individual was in line for a €5 million backhander? Why, under section 19 of the Criminal Justice Act, did it not report it? Why did the Minister for Finance not report it?”

Ó Fearghaíl: “Thank you, Deputy.”

Wallace: “Will the Taoiseach answer my question? Why did NAMA sell Harcourt Street station to a vulture fund rather than keep it in State ownership? Has it anything to do with the fact that people, who were insiders, were going to benefit from it?”

Ó Fearghaíl: “Thank you, Deputy.”

Wallace: “It is just ridiculous. It is outrageous to say that no allegations have been made against NAMA in Dublin. There are bucketfuls of them. Somebody is eventually going to have to deal with it. Why will the Taoiseach not deal with it before he is gone? Otherwise it will be on his legacy that he did not want…”

Ó Fearghaíl: “Thank you, Deputy. Your time is up.”

Wallace: “…accountability or transparency around this State body.”

Kenny: “I do not accept Deputy Wallace’s assertion at all that there are people in government who do not want to know. He made a allegation. He asked me why Harcourt Street station was sold to a vulture fund. I will find out the answer for him. He made other allegations that are of a serious nature. I am quite sure he will bring them to the authorities.”

Wallace: “The Garda knows about them.”

Kenny: “I am sure that the Deputy also accepts that the Comptroller and Auditor General’s office is completely independent and it is looking at Project Eagle…”

Talk over each other

Kenny: “…and if there is any issue in respect of an allegation being made about an individual or an entity, the Comptroller and Auditor General is perfectly entitled to…”

Wallace: “No.”

Kenny: “Yes, he is. He is perfectly entitled to investigate that completely independently. There are a lot of rumours going around and a lot of speculation and allegations. If the Deputy has evidence, I would be the first to say to him that this will be treated seriously, as it has been in a number of other areas where commissions have been involved.”

Transcript via Oireachtas.ie

Update:

“Claims made by Deputy Wallace about Hibernia REIT are ill-informed, inaccurate and without foundation.

Hibernia REIT did not purchase Harcourt Square from NAMA, as asserted by Deputy Wallace. Harcourt Square was sold by NAMA to Starwood Capital in 2013, as part of a large portfolio of assets called Project Aspen. Hibernia acquired the property from Starwood Capital in February 2015.

Hibernia REIT is an Irish listed and regulated public company that is investing in Ireland for the long term.

It is disappointing that Deputy Wallace has used the protection of Dail privilege to make a range of untrue allegations.”

Statement from Hibernie REIT tonight.

Hushnahan

Admin at 1:25 pm July 12, 2016

A letter sent from the Standards in Public Office Commission to Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace last Thursday.

It details how, on March 2, Nama chairman Frank Daly made a complaint to SIPO about Frank Cushnahan, a former member of Nama’s Northern Ireland Advisory Committee.

It also states that SIPO will contact Mr Wallace soon to meet with the TD and possibly obtain a statement from him. SIPO also requests that Mr Wallace furnish SIPO with any documents that may help SIPO’s inquiry into the complaint against Mr Cushnahan.

~~Three~~ Four months.

Good times

Frank Cushnahan broke law, Nama complaint in Republic alleges (March 3, Belfast Telegraph)

Previously: Screech

‘The Figleaf Has Been Blown Out Of The Water’

Spotlight Falls On Noonan

That Nama Vote In Full

Admin at 3:07 pm July 4, 2016

There you go now.

Context

Meanwhile….

In yesterday’s Sunday Independent, Gene Kerrigan wrote:

Fianna Fail has for ages been demanding an inquiry into Nama’s property deals. Last week, when Mick Wallace put down a motion to that effect, they voted against it.

No, no, they explained, we can’t have an inquiry – sure, isn’t the Comptroller and Auditor General looking into this?

Yes, the C&AG is looking at one aspect of it. Just as he was last time Fianna Fail demanded a full inquiry.

The thoroughness with which Fianna Fail has betrayed its own members and voters, and the interests of all of us, is impressive.

It’s doing a creditable job of helping Fine Gael keep the lid on the Nama scandal, while simultaneously posing as the main opposition party.

As long as the political correspondents facilitate this deception, so long will duplicity prosper.

…Fine Gael and Fianna Fail voted down an inquiry on the basis that any State scrutiny will somehow interfere with due process.

With exquisite comic reasoning, the very fact the PSNI, the NCA and the FBI are disturbed by the smell from Nama has become reason for the Irish establishment to ignore the smell. Question: what don’t they want us to know? What is it makes them pretend they don’t get a hint of a smell from the festering Cerberus deal?

…Meanwhile, Standards in Public Office has published details of the state money politicians receive. I’d explain why the State gives politicians this money, but I don’t know.

Fine Gael spent €200,000 of our money on secret polls before the election, all the better to manipulate the voters.

…Now, this polling, paid for with our money, gives politicians an advantage over candidates who don’t get a state subsidy. That sounds unconstitutional to me – perhaps under the ruling that prohibits one side in a referendum from using state funds to influence opinion.

Clowns to the left, jokers to the right (Gene Kerrigan, Sunday Independent)

Previously: Screech

Nothing To C Here

Via Mick Wallace

‘We Don’t Need Lawyers Around A Woman’s Bed’

Admin at 12:03 pm June 29, 2016

Labour TD Joan Burton

Last night.

Cabinet ministers failed to agree on a Government position in relation to Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace’s proposed bill to allow for abortions in cases of fatal foetal illnesses.

A vote on the bill – which has been deemed unconstitutional by the Attorney General Maire Whelan, according to Fine Gael Health Minister Simon Harris – will take place tomorrow.

Mr Wallace has called for the Attorney General’s advice to be published and to let the courts decide where it’s unconstitutional or not.

Further to this.

This morning, on Newstalk Breakfast, presenters Ivan Yates and Chris Donoghue spoke to Labour TD Joan Burton, Independent Alliance TD Finian McGrath and Fianna Fáil TD Michael McGrath about the bill.

From the discussion…

Ivan Yates: “Joan…you were in Government and voted down Clare Daly’s bill and I remember at the time because Labour perhaps is the vanguard of Pro Choice here and a woman’s right to choose. What are you going to do next Thursday?”

Joan Burton: “Well, first of all, we have, as we had then, very serious legal advice because the bill, to a large extent, is a copy of the previous Clare Daly bill and I’ll be honest and, you know, it’s a difficult point but we have advice that the bill is unconstitutional. That’s separate from the advice that we received when we were members of the Government. We favour a referendum on the 8th amendment. And I favour the 8th amendment, with the will of the people, in a referendum being taken out of the constitution so we can then legislate constitutionally and properly. What…”

Yates: “What are you going to vote?”

Burton: “Oh we are, our parliamentary party will meet later today, we haven’t made a decision but there is a problem with Mick Wallace’s bill. Now if Finian McGrath is saying there’s a solution, can I make a suggestion then. Why not have the Oireachtas committee, the health committee meet next week and bring in a panel of both doctors and of lawyers with expertise in this area, as we did in relation to the X case…”

Chris Donoghue: “Are you saying forget the Citizens’ Assembly?”

Burton: “I think the actual expert evidence should come first and I’ve said that before the election, it’s still my view. Because, this remember is about women, a horrible, horrible dilemma, it’s about parents with a dreadful dilemma…”

Later

Burton: “I’m not asking for you to forget the Citizens’ Assembly, I’m saying we don’t need abortion wars in Ireland. What we need is care for women who are pregnant with an extraordinarily and exceptionally difficult pregnancy. We don’t need lawyers around a woman’s bed, we actually need doctors…”

Listen back in full here (Part 4)

Previously: Publish And Be Damned

Was It Really Unconstitutional?