
From top: Director of HSE Tony O’Brien and Fine Gael TD Josepha Madigan, of Dublin Rathdown at the Public Accounts Committee this morning
Director of HSE Tony O’Brien and members of the Department of Health is before the Public Accounts Committee this morning in light of the revelations concerning the former CEO of Console, Paul Kelly.
During this morning’s meeting, Fine Gael TD Josepha Madigan repeatedly asked Mr O’Brien if the HSE took any responsibility for Console’s finances.
She was fairly dogged, in fairness.
From the meeting…
Tony O’Brien: “We were not Console’s regulator, we were not its primary funder. We were purchasing a certain range of services from Console which were being received, which continued until yesterday. Which will now continue in another organisation. We have no powers over their fundraising activities or those other extraneous matters.”
Jospeha Madigan: “Just on that point that you say there, Mr O’Brien, and I heard you on Sean O’Rourke (RTE Radio One show)… you also said that you partially funded Console. To me that’s actually missing the point. The main principle still applies, you’re still giving a significant amount of money to this charity so it doesn’t matter whether its partially funded or not. The same principles still apply, the same oversight should apply in relation to that particular charity and I don’t think that’s a good enough response, in my view.”
Later
Madigan: “When you talk about value for money, it seems, putting the services to one side, it seems extraordinary that you say that you’re satisfied in relation to what’s transpired.”
O’Brien: “Well, can I explain why? And it does go back to an earlier point and I know you don’t necessarily agree with where I’m coming from on this. The services are all we paid for. Our engagement with that organisation was…”
Madigan: “Are you abdicating all responsibility from oversight of Console?”
O’Brien: “What I have said and what I’m saying clearly…”
Madigan: “I’m asking a question…”
O’Brien: “You’re seeking to frame it in a way that I can’t give you a yes or no answer..”
Madigan: “That’s what your implying..”
O’Brien: “What I’m saying..”
Madigan: “That’s what you’re implying…”
O’Brien: “If that was the case why would we have concocted this very extensive internal audit. What I’m saying is we…”
Madigan: “Which should have been done, with respect, many years beforehand, many years beforehand. Do you accept there’s any failings on behalf of the HSE for Console?”
O’Brien: “The failings that are in the report on Console, which you’ve had an opportunity to read, are failings within Console. Clearly, at any point in time, with the benefit…”
Madigan: “Do you accept any…”
O’Brien: “Can I answer the question?”
Madigan: “No, because, no because you’re saying the failings are within Console itself. Do you, Mr O’Brien accept that the HSE had a responsibility towards Console? Do you accept any, any responsibility?”
O’Brien: “We had a responsibility to the provide funding in relation to the services they were providing to satisfy ourselves, the quality of those services, and when significant issues of concern…”
Madigan: “But why didn’t you carry out inspections when you could have done that? You..”
O’Brien: “It’s very difficult for a witness to answer questions if they only get the first 50% of their answer out.”
Madigan: “Go ahead but…”
O’Brien: “If I could answer the question, it may answer the next question that you’re trying to pose to me. When issues of concern arose about financial governance, the audit was initiated. Prior to that, there had not been unresolved issues which led to that decision. Obviously, officers have to make judgements at all times. With the benefit of hindsight yes, maybe the decision could have been made earlier…”
Madigan: “OK, maybe the decision could have been made earlier. Will you accept the failings on behalf of the HSE in relation to the governance of Console?”
O’Brien: “No, I do not accept. We were not responsible for the governance of Console. Console is a separate legal entity. Our only responsibility can be in relation to the oversight..”
Madigan: “So you’re saying the HSE has absolutely, is absolutely blameless thus far?”
O’Brien: “I didn’t say that.”
Madigan: “But that is what you’re saying, Mr O’Brien.”
O’Brien: “If you were to review the transcript, you will find I didn’t say that.”
Madigan: “I have read your transcript at length..”
O’Brien: “No, no, the transcript of our discussion right now. At no point have I said the HSE is blameless.”
Madigan: “You’re not saying, you know what you’re saying, Mr O’Brien, you’re hiding behind words and you’re very good at it.”
O’Brien: “Can I say something? Chairman…If the PAC were an airline, I’d be in the top tier of the frequent fliers programme, right? So I expect to be in here a lot. As I was with the previous committee. The committee members know what I mean. We have provided all the specific documentation the committee asked us to provide. We’ve come as required, now we’re going to do our best to give you all the information that we can. But sometimes it’s very difficult if I only get the first few words of an answer out..”
Watch live here
Previously: Con Sold